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nogames
Guest
Although I’m not Catholic, and my understanding of Catholic teachings is not exactly advanced, I have come to wonder if the teaching of purgatory might be harmful, especially for new Catholics. What do you say?
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Vonsalza
Guest
I wouldn’t think so because it ultimately doesn’t make a difference.
For most protestants, when a Christian dies they are instantly glorified and enter heaven.
For Catholics, when a Christian dies they are purified by a process generally called purgatory before they enter heaven.
Again, it ultimately doesn’t make a difference.
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angel12
Guest
How could teaching the truth be harmful?
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TheLittleLady
Guest
First thing, the Church is not like sects/cults that hide certain teachings from the neophyte.
Purgatory is a teaching of mercy and forgiveness and love which is the very heart of the Gospel.
Purgatory is a teaching of mercy and forgiveness and love which is the very heart of the Gospel.
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Fauken
Guest
When I was in the process of learning about purgatory as an aspiring Catholic, I did not find it harmful in any sense. I’m not sure what kind of harm you could be thinking of.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Short answer, no, it is not harmful. It is probably one of the most helpful and hopeful doctrines we have.
Consider first, that we clearly know that nothing unclean can stand before the Lord. Jesus makes that explicitly clear in the Gospels.
Now, consider two positions:
In Protestantism, the most commonly accepted workaround for humanity’s sinfulness is that God covers up and ignores our sins. There are obvious theological issues with this, given that covering up uncleanliness doesn’t actually make something clean, nor does ignoring it. If you cover up trash with a blanket, it’s still going to stink up the place.
In Catholicism, we believe that people can truly become holy, and be transformed by God’s grace, literally removing our uncleanliness and making us white with the blood of the lamb.
Given either of these positions, with the first’s theological issues, and the second’s progressive nature of developing holiness, we are left with some problems; namely, that we are not necessarily completely clean and holy when we die.
In Protestantism, this is ignored, which violates scripture.
In Catholicism, we understand that we must truly be holy to stand before God. We must be completely clean from the effects of and inclinations towards sin. Well, that leaves most of humanity with a problem, since very few people will be completely detached from all sins when they die. That’s where purgatory comes in. Purgatory is a gift which allows those in communion with God, but not yet completely free of the inclination towards sin, to finish up their purification before moving on to Heaven.
Purgatory shows us that God does not demand perfection, but rather asks for persistence and repentance. I do not have to become completely holy in this life (a near impossible feat) to be saved; but I do have to strive for it. I can’t live an ungodly life and just assume God will make me clean in purgatory. That’s not the way it works, and not what the Church teaches.
Does this help explain why Purgatory is a great thing to teach to new Catholics? If not, what issues do you have with the idea?
Consider first, that we clearly know that nothing unclean can stand before the Lord. Jesus makes that explicitly clear in the Gospels.
Now, consider two positions:
In Protestantism, the most commonly accepted workaround for humanity’s sinfulness is that God covers up and ignores our sins. There are obvious theological issues with this, given that covering up uncleanliness doesn’t actually make something clean, nor does ignoring it. If you cover up trash with a blanket, it’s still going to stink up the place.
In Catholicism, we believe that people can truly become holy, and be transformed by God’s grace, literally removing our uncleanliness and making us white with the blood of the lamb.
Given either of these positions, with the first’s theological issues, and the second’s progressive nature of developing holiness, we are left with some problems; namely, that we are not necessarily completely clean and holy when we die.
In Protestantism, this is ignored, which violates scripture.
In Catholicism, we understand that we must truly be holy to stand before God. We must be completely clean from the effects of and inclinations towards sin. Well, that leaves most of humanity with a problem, since very few people will be completely detached from all sins when they die. That’s where purgatory comes in. Purgatory is a gift which allows those in communion with God, but not yet completely free of the inclination towards sin, to finish up their purification before moving on to Heaven.
Purgatory shows us that God does not demand perfection, but rather asks for persistence and repentance. I do not have to become completely holy in this life (a near impossible feat) to be saved; but I do have to strive for it. I can’t live an ungodly life and just assume God will make me clean in purgatory. That’s not the way it works, and not what the Church teaches.
Does this help explain why Purgatory is a great thing to teach to new Catholics? If not, what issues do you have with the idea?
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nogames
Guest
I’m sure that truth is a good thing to teach, but what if there is no purgatory, or what if it can’t be supported very well by scripture? In addition, there is the common belief among some people that purgatory might be very unpleasant.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
In the end, I am Catholic because it is true.
I do not sit around wondering “what if X teaching ends up to be untrue?” in the same way I do not sit around wondering “what if my father is not ACTUALLY my father?” or “what if my husband is actually married to someone else?”. I trust because I am in a loving, intimate relationship with Christ and His Church, as well as with my family and my spouse.
I do not sit around wondering “what if X teaching ends up to be untrue?” in the same way I do not sit around wondering “what if my father is not ACTUALLY my father?” or “what if my husband is actually married to someone else?”. I trust because I am in a loving, intimate relationship with Christ and His Church, as well as with my family and my spouse.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Purgatory is supported by scripture. There are several articles about that very thing on the main site here. It’s also a frequent question on the radio show, and gets brought up here a lot.
As for it being unpleasant… well, yeah, it’s going to be. Purgatory is where we remove all vestigaes of sin. It takes places after we have seen God, seen Him in his beauty and love. We see the fulfillment of all desire, the reason for which we are made; and then we see the way we have abused Him, rejected Him, and harmed those He loves (i.e., every single person we have ever hurt in our lives, either directly or tangentially).
That knowledge; that pure unfettered realization of the evil we have done… there’s no way that couldn’t hurt.
And yet, it is also probably the most hopeful place in existence.
In Heaven, hope is no longer necessary. The greatest of all Goods, GOD, has been obtained. There is no need to hope. In Hell, there is only despair, no hope at all for salvation. It is in Purgatory, where the knowledge of salvation is assured, and yet not yet realized, that our hope for God, for purification, can be experienced at its fullest.
No matter the pains of purgatory, it is also the happiest place this side of Heaven; because everyone in it is saved, and they know it.
As for it being unpleasant… well, yeah, it’s going to be. Purgatory is where we remove all vestigaes of sin. It takes places after we have seen God, seen Him in his beauty and love. We see the fulfillment of all desire, the reason for which we are made; and then we see the way we have abused Him, rejected Him, and harmed those He loves (i.e., every single person we have ever hurt in our lives, either directly or tangentially).
That knowledge; that pure unfettered realization of the evil we have done… there’s no way that couldn’t hurt.
And yet, it is also probably the most hopeful place in existence.
In Heaven, hope is no longer necessary. The greatest of all Goods, GOD, has been obtained. There is no need to hope. In Hell, there is only despair, no hope at all for salvation. It is in Purgatory, where the knowledge of salvation is assured, and yet not yet realized, that our hope for God, for purification, can be experienced at its fullest.
No matter the pains of purgatory, it is also the happiest place this side of Heaven; because everyone in it is saved, and they know it.
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nogames
Guest
How can we be sure that purgatory always “works”? Isn’t it possible that the sinful tendencies of some of us will always remain regardless how long we suffer in purgatory?
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Fauken
Guest
That would imply that evil is part of our nature, which it is not. There is no sin that can overcome the power of God.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
We know it works because, once we have seen God ; the purpose of our existence. Pure, unrelenting joy and peace. The greatest possible good we could EVER experience, so far beyond the passing pleasures of any sin… we will have no desire other than to become holy so that we may enter into God’s presence eternally.ProdglArchitect:
How can we be sure that purgatory always “works”? Isn’t it possible that the sinful tendencies of some of us will always remain regardless how long we suffer in purgatory?
Keep in mind, this is what we are created for. The literal purpose of our existence is to be with God. Sin keeps us from that purpose. It separates us from Him. In this world we are walking as though through a fog, not truly seeing God and the joy He has to offer. When we die, and when we come to truly understand that purpose, and experience a taste of what being in God’s presence is like, there will be no sin great enough to usurp our desire for Him.
Also, we know that the works of purgatory must come to an end. In Revelation, we are shown that everyone will be in Heaven or Hell after the second coming and general judgment. There will be no more purgatory. Since those in Purgatory are already saved, but in the process of final purification, they cannot wind up going to Hell.
Lastly, we know it works because it is what God has given us for purification. If it didn’t work., God wouldn’t have created it.
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angel12
Guest
A. Then why teach anything? You could say “what if it’s not true” about everything.
B. Some truths are unpleasant. Some, in fact, are downright horrifying. But I don’t see where that would apply to the certain knowledge that you’ll make it to Heaven.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Because God does not lie and He said that nothing unclean can enter Heaven.
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nogames
Guest
Are all human beings created for this purpose-to be with God?
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Every last one of us in all of history.
The sad fact is, some people reject that purpose and chose to separate themselves from Him eternally.
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nogames
Guest
Then why doesn’t God send every person who has sinful tendencies to purgatory? It seems to me that if purgatory “works” then no one would have to spend eternity in hell.
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fhansen
Guest
Purgatory resolves the conflict between Scripture, along with Church teachings, that tell us no sinners enter heaven (which really makes sense since sin is opposition to God by its nature; sin is the cause of our death), and the fact that most will still lack perfection in that area when we die. The New Covenant has the purpose of not only forgiving us, but also of cleansing and helping us to ‘go, and sin no more’ as we cooperate with God in this endeavor, working out our salvation with He who works in us. Ultimately God’s purpose isn’t to suddenly decide to ignore sin and injustice in His universe, but rather to restore it, patiently working with and molding us into the beings we were simply created to be. Otherwise He may as well have simply stocked heaven with the “elect” and hell with the rest in the beginning and avoided all the pain and suffering and sin and death that has occurred since the Fall of man. Instead God is working on our wills; the more we will the right thing, and act accordingly, the greater our justice. That’s what we’re here for: to come to learn of our need for God, and run to Him, finally to come to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is what our righteousness or holiness consists of.
The problem with much of Protestant theology is their sola fide, or “faith alone”, doctrine. This spreads confusion, convincing people that they’re relieved from needing to be perfected before entrance to heaven; it becomes a sort of get-out-of-hell-free-card. But that’s not the purpose of faith. Faith justifies us by placing us into the relationship or communion with God, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’, but ‘with Whom all things are possible’, that man was made for, a relationship that Adam shattered with his first sin. As long as we remain in Him and He is us, He works in us, perfecting us. This process of purification may need to be finally, mercifully, finished after this life until our wills are aligned with His perfect will, until we come to see what He sees, until we place Him first above all else, no longer distracted by lesser, created, things, no longer attracted to sin. Until then we aren’t totally sure we even want to “see” Him, so that until then we aren’t even yet capable of seeing Him; our hearts aren’t yet pure’
"Blessed are the pure of heart for they will see God."
The problem with much of Protestant theology is their sola fide, or “faith alone”, doctrine. This spreads confusion, convincing people that they’re relieved from needing to be perfected before entrance to heaven; it becomes a sort of get-out-of-hell-free-card. But that’s not the purpose of faith. Faith justifies us by placing us into the relationship or communion with God, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’, but ‘with Whom all things are possible’, that man was made for, a relationship that Adam shattered with his first sin. As long as we remain in Him and He is us, He works in us, perfecting us. This process of purification may need to be finally, mercifully, finished after this life until our wills are aligned with His perfect will, until we come to see what He sees, until we place Him first above all else, no longer distracted by lesser, created, things, no longer attracted to sin. Until then we aren’t totally sure we even want to “see” Him, so that until then we aren’t even yet capable of seeing Him; our hearts aren’t yet pure’
"Blessed are the pure of heart for they will see God."
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Fauken
Guest
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. If you don’t want God, you get exactly what you want, which is Hell.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Because,there’s no point in attempting to purify people who reject Him, as they would refuse to be purified. You seem to be operating under a faulty assumption, not your fault, you’re not Catholic.
Purgatory, is only for the saved, and it only works if the person wants to be with God. The damned do not want to be with God.
You have to understand the Catholic perspective on Hell. God doesn’t send people to Hell, the damned flee to Hell to escape God. They flee to Hell because they cannot stand to submit themselves to Him; they run from God because they chose to worship themselves and their sins above Him. They may also flee from Him because they are unwilling to be forgiven. In those cases, there can be no purification because hte person is unwilling to be purified.
If, as you said in your previous post, a person is unwilling to give up their favorite sin, then they will go to Hell. This isn’t something that will be “found out” after a sufficient amount of time in Purgatory; it is known by God and the individual soul at the moment of death, and if that is the case they will go straight to Hell.
If you are in purgatory, it is because you are willing to give up your sins; you are repentant and mournful for the evil you have committed; and yet are also willing to accept God’s grace and forgiveness. That is how we know Purgatory works; because the people in there are those who want it to work.
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