Purgatory-the risks of teaching it to new Catholics

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anon64350612 said:
  1. If we know about purgatory we can more earnestly strive for perfection (that is, purge ourselves of sin and imperfection) in this life in order to avoid the purging “fire” of purgatory. 2. If we know about purgatory we can more earnestly pray for the souls in purgatory who can no longer gain any merit by their own efforts.
    The risks of not knowing about Purgatory are ignoring loved ones in purgatory so that their suffering is prolonged, and spending a long time there ourselves.
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As I’ve pointed out, if the sinful tendencies in us are a reflection of our will, then our will needs to be transformed somehow. Does purgatory transform our will, or does it leave our will unchanged? If purgatory leaves our will unchanged, and the sinful tendencies of the will are not eliminated by purgatory, then what would make you believe that purgatory does anything to anyone? What would be the difference then, if purgatory doesn’t even exist?
 
Here is how I talk about it to Protestant friends and family.

We are both Christians. We both love God above all things, we both feel deep sorrow and repent when we sin. We always agree on those two points.

I know I am not perfect. Every honest Protestant Christian I’ve talked to will also agree that they are not perfect (right now my WalMart is selling shirts that say “Not Perfect, Just Forgiven”).

We both agree that Scripture says nothing unclean can enter heaven.

We both agree that there are two judgements. One we face at death and the Great White Throne judgement at the end of time.

So, somewhere between my imperfect forgiven now and my entering heaven, there is a judgement and it would make sense to believe that one of the things that judgement does is make me perfect so I can enter heaven.

I simply call that process of perfection “purgatory”.
 
nogames said:
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anon64350612:
  1. If we know about purgatory we can more earnestly strive for perfection (that is, purge ourselves of sin and imperfection) in this life in order to avoid the purging “fire” of purgatory. 2. If we know about purgatory we can more earnestly pray for the souls in purgatory who can no longer gain any merit by their own efforts.
    The risks of not knowing about Purgatory are ignoring loved ones in purgatory so that their suffering is prolonged, and spending a long time there ourselves.
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As I’ve pointed out, if the sinful tendencies in us are a reflection of our will, then our will needs to be transformed somehow. Does purgatory transform our will, or does it leave our will unchanged? If purgatory leaves our will unchanged, and the sinful tendencies of the will are not eliminated by purgatory, then what would make you believe that purgatory does anything to anyone? What would be the difference then, if purgatory doesn’t even exist?
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All of our experiences here on earth and into purgatory if need be have the purpose of molding and rectifying our will, with our cooperation. It’s a process. Adam willed wrongly; God’s purpose is to patiently draw His creation into willing rightly. That’s what we’re here for. The ultimate blossoming and expression of this is when we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength.
 
I think that is helpful, especially as the impression I had (and I think many other Protestants have) of it prior was that it was purely punitive, and basically a lighter version of Hell that we had to pass through. What also helped me was 1 Cor. 3:10-15 in realizing the further Scriptural basis.
 
Maybe it’s a good way to leave it with the neophyte that we believe this because hat is what the Church teaches, giving a chance to give them the rule of faith being what the Church teaches - why we believe what we believe.
 
nogames said:
As I’ve pointed out, if the sinful tendencies in us are a reflection of our will, then our will needs to be transformed somehow. Does purgatory transform our will, or does it leave our will unchanged? If purgatory leaves our will unchanged, and the sinful tendencies of the will are not eliminated by purgatory, then what would make you believe that purgatory does anything to anyone? What would be the difference then, if purgatory doesn’t even exist?
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This was already answered in post #20. After death,
ProdglArchitect said:
there’s no point in attempting to purify people who reject Him, as they would refuse to be purified. … Purgatory, is only for the saved, and it only works if the person wants to be with God. The damned do not want to be with God.
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If a person is in purgatory, that person has already bent his or her will to the desires of God. So, no, purgatory does not change a person’s will. God will never change a person’s will. He proposes the Truth for our belief. ‘The Act of Faith’, ‘Act of Hope’, and ‘Act of Love’ prayers all end with the words: In this (faith-hope-love) I intend to live and to die. These are reflections of the will of the inner person.

Now Saint Paul talks about the struggle against sin. God allows us this struggle for our benefit. While our desire to follow God and submit to Him may be very real (we submit our will to God), we must strive to overcome bad habits, temptations and vices, and our concupiscence. Virtue is acquired by practice - it does not happen all at once when we change our minds and obey God. (Sometimes we don’t even know at first what God wants.) He also allows the struggle so that we pay penance for our transgressions - to satisfy the demands of justice. True, it is an imperfect justice because we can never repay what we owe almighty God, but it works for our benefit and God accepts our efforts. Here is Saint Paul: 14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. Romans Chapter 8

As you can see, Saint Paul himself struggled with committing sins, but that did not negate his will to obey God. I would argue that not every sin is proximately caused by intentional will although many are. And even if they are so caused, we can immediately seek forgiveness and make amends (beware of the sin of presumption, which I am not addressing here). Some sins (caused by past or remote intentions) were decided upon long ago and now proceed out of bad habit or weakness. (You all can beat me up for this one if you want. I will wait for it.) Un-confessed, un-repented venial sin weakens the soul and weakens the will. God in his mercy has allowed us to enter purgatory when He knows we love Him but in our weakness we cannot completely follow Him with the perfection He desires and deserves. There is more to it, but that is a start.
 
I usually describe purgatory (for children and those interested in the Catholic faith) like this:

You have died and stand in front of Jesus Christ who asks you: “Would you like to spend eternity with me?” Before you can look Jesus in the eyes and reply “Yes, I would like to.” that is purgatory. How long it is going to take depends upon us (our sins) and not Jesus. It really is: “To love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbour as myself” (paraphrased) (Mark 12:28b-34)

If you answer “No” then you are saying “no” to all contact with Jesus for ever and is bound for hell.
 
anon64350612 said:
If a person is in purgatory, that person has already bent his or her will to the desires of God. So, no, purgatory does not change a person’s will. God will never change a person’s will.
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This is what I was expecting I would hear about purgatory. But again, if our will is left unchanged in purgatory, what reason is there to think that our sinful tendencies would be reformed or in any way changed by purgatory?
 
I’m a new Catholic. I was not traumatized by being taught about purgatory. I really don’t know what harm would come from teaching it.

Also, are there any other truths we should avoid teaching because people would prefer not to know them?
 
nogames said:
Although I’m not Catholic, and my understanding of Catholic teachings is not exactly advanced, I have come to wonder if the teaching of purgatory might be harmful, especially for new Catholics. What do you say?
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When purgatory is taught CORRECTLY, it is wonderful & beautiful.

When taught incorrectly, then it’s harmful.
 
I certainly hope not :)! I see where you would be worried. Like, they may think they don’t have to try so hard since there is purgatory anyway, but you see growing up ( I’m cradle Catholic) I was told “. If you aim for Purgatory, you may not make it! You have to aim for heaven! If they are taught correctly there should be no problem. Also, the truth will always lead to truth. No need to fear it 🙂
 
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God would be very cruel indeed if He commanded us to be perfect without giving us the means to do so. We do as much as we can here on earth and trust that God will help us either now or in the afterlife. 1. We need to ask God for these graces to perfect ourselves. 2. We can “will” to be virtuous all day, but virtue comes with practice. Virtues are given and strengthened through sanctifying grace and actual grace and we must contribute with our own efforts to cooperate with those graces.

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt. 5:48
 
anon64350612 said:
God would be very cruel indeed if He commanded us to be perfect without giving us the means to do so. We do as much as we can here on earth and trust that God will help us either now or in the afterlife. 1. We need to ask God for these graces to perfect ourselves. 2. We can “will” to be virtuous all day, but virtue comes with practice. Virtues are given and strengthened through sanctifying grace and actual grace and we must contribute with our own efforts to cooperate with those graces.

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt. 5:48
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The point I’m making is that we can’t “practice” righteousness if we are unrighteous slaves to our sins. Sin is not a thing, it is a lack of something. Adam and Eve were created good, and they lacked nothing until they chose to sin. Because of the fall, all of us are born lacking what we need to live with God. My understanding of purgatory is that it exists to take something away (a purging), and not the adding to, or giving of something that we lack.
 
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Maybe I do not understand. So are you saying that we cannot grow in excellence? Or that we are either perfectly in sin or perfectly out of sin? If you are a slave to a particular sin, getting out of that slavery begins with a decision to stop sinning (residing in the will) and the grace to practice the virtue opposed to the particular sin. Take gossiping for instance. Would it be reasonable to expect a slave to the sin of detraction (gossip) who decided not to gossip anymore to stop at once and never lapse into gossiping again (and practice the virtues of affability and truthfulness instead without fail)? I think we all agree that would be unrealistic because such perfection takes time and many attempts at successfully avoiding temptation and choosing the good over evil. We realize upon reflection the many times we have tried to better ourselves and have failed along the way to advancement. Let me know if I misunderstood your comment.
 
Maybe I do not understand. So are you saying that we cannot grow in excellence?
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We can grow closer to God by His grace, and we can become, to a degree, less sinful too. But God’s standard isn’t better, or less sinful, God demands absolute perfection in every way. Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord.
Or that we are either perfectly in sin or perfectly out of sin?
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As regards to salvation, yes, we are regarded by God as either all sin or all righteousness.
 
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Yes. As to salvation it is all or nothing. We must be made fit for heaven, though. As Mother Angelica famously said, “How do you expect to go to heaven if you hate half the people in there?” Some people are in a state of grace (saved), but they are not living a life of grace. Purgatory purifies the soul that has been saved by sanctifying grace, but is not perfected.
 
anon64350612 said:
Purgatory purifies the soul that has been saved by sanctifying grace, but is not perfected.
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The bible tells us that on the cross, “He bore our sins.” In another place, “He became sin for us.” So, our sins (in a figurative sense), were nailed to the cross. The sin problem has already been dealt with for those who belong to Him. Because my sins were taken away and placed on Jesus, there is nothing left for God to purge out of me…to make me acceptable to God. This is truly great news!
 
Usually, we don’t tell them about this until their first BAA comes up.🤑
 
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