Purgatory-the risks of teaching it to new Catholics

[2towers]

nogames… brother,… you with the utmost respect, and highest level of brotherhood… when you die, the gig is up. The time is out. Your done, your cashing in the chips. Will… being a sinner, its ALL done. No need to change a mind, or reform a sinner. It is all about settling the account, purification, cleaning you up, purging the stain of sin from your lovely God given soul. Think of it as the rinse cycle, NOT a learning opportunity. The sin, the good works, the merits, choosing and choices, better or worse, when you leave your body it is done.

I had a friend who liked to refer to purgatory as “the final shower.” [with the heat turned up just a bit] If you end up in purgatory then you are FORTUNATE, and you are right next to the FINNISH LINE!!!

Sorry for that, I work with high school students.

 

[fhansen]

Nonsense. That would mean that God, suddenly, no longer, cares about sin or injustice. That’s a gross distortion of the gospel, an all too common one I’m afraid.

The purpose of the New Covenant isn’t to allow us to evade the need to be righteous, rather it provides the only authentic means to it.

And this is why Romans 2 can tell us that we’ll be judged by the Law, even though the Law itself cannot justify us.

 

[Vico]

…
My understanding of purgatory is that it exists to take something away (a purging), and not the adding to, or giving of something that we lack.

Catechism

X. Indulgences
…
The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

83 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.

 

[nogames]

Sorry for that, I work with high school students.

No problem! BTW, I enjoy reading your posts!

 

[fhansen]

anon64350612:

God would be very cruel indeed if He commanded us to be perfect without giving us the means to do so. We do as much as we can here on earth and trust that God will help us either now or in the afterlife. 1. We need to ask God for these graces to perfect ourselves. 2. We can “will” to be virtuous all day, but virtue comes with practice. Virtues are given and strengthened through sanctifying grace and actual grace and we must contribute with our own efforts to cooperate with those graces.

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt. 5:48

The point I’m making is that we can’t “practice” righteousness if we are unrighteous slaves to our sins. Sin is not a thing, it is a lack of something. Adam and Eve were created good, and they lacked nothing until they chose to sin. Because of the fall, all of us are born lacking what we need to live with God. My understanding of purgatory is that it exists to take something away (a purging), and not the adding to, or giving of something that we lack.

Yes, purgatory finally gives us what Adam forfeited or gave up, or never fully had for that matter: a heart turned fully to God, no longer turned away from Him to any degree.

 

[Wesrock]

People who will to become holy are made holy. They are incapable of achieving this under their own power, but they can will it, if imperfectly. People who will to reject holiness are not forced to become holy.

God is perfectly capable of forcing wills. It’s not a question of his ability, but that He desires us to will it, and respects our will.

 

[Wesrock]

So you are now perfectly holy already, never doing evil, always choosing the good?

 

[nogames]

The purpose of the New Covenant isn’t to allow us to evade the need to be righteous, rather it provides the only authentic means to it.

And this is why Romans 2 can tell us that we’ll be judged by the Law, even though the Law, itself cannot justify us.

I agree with this. It seems that we disagree on the way that the new covenant provides the means to righteousness for sinners.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

The purpose of the New Covenant isn’t to allow us to evade the need to be righteous, rather it provides the only authentic means to it.

And this is why Romans 2 can tell us that we’ll be judged by the Law, even though the Law, itself cannot justify us.

I agree with this. It seems that we disagree on the way that the new covenant provides the means to righteousness for sinners.

Ok, but it’s certainly not that faith stands in for righteousness, or is the equivalent of it.

So, what’s the way that you understand that “the new covenant provides the means to righteousness for sinners”?

 

[nogames]

So you are now perfectly holy already, never doing evil, always choosing the good?

No, I’m a sinner. But I believe that by grace, my sins have been forgiven. But not just forgiven, forgotten too!

 

[nogames]

So you are now perfectly holy already, never doing evil, always choosing the good?

Do you remember what Jesus said to one of the two criminals who was crucified with Him when he asked Jesus to remember him?

 

[anon64350612]

Do you remember what Jesus said to one of the two criminals who was crucified with Him when he asked Jesus to remember him?

Good question! Jesus said (to the “good thief”) today you will be with me in paradise. BUT the good thief still had to suffer; he was not taken to heaven right away. He had to hang on the cross until the time appointed to break his legs, thus forcing him to die under his own weight by suffocation. I propose that he did suffer a penance and a type of purgatory. He took part in paying the price for his own sins. The good thief also admitted he deserved his punishment.

 

[vz71]

Good question! Jesus said (to the “good thief”) today you will be with me in paradise. BUT the good thief still had to suffer; he was not taken to heaven right away. He had to hang on the cross until the time appointed to break his legs, thus forcing him to die under his own weight by suffocation. I propose that he did suffer a penance and a type of purgatory. He took part in paying the price for his own sins. The good thief also admitted he deserved his punishment.

Also, bear in mind that purgatory does not exist within our time-frame.
One day here does not necessarily equate to anything in the eternal now that exists in the hereafter.

 

[nogames]

nogames:

Do you remember what Jesus said to one of the two criminals who was crucified with Him when he asked Jesus to remember him?

I propose that he did suffer a penance and a type of purgatory. He took part in paying the price for his own sins. The good thief also admitted he deserved his punishment.

The bible tells us:

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

The “no one can boast” part is there to remind us that even our faith is a gift from God. And if by grace, it cannot be by our works, can it? And this:

“Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”

I believe that anyone who does “good works” with the goal of “paying” for even a tiny portion of his/her sins, is adding more fury to their judgment.

 

[fhansen]

The bible tells us:

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

The “no one can boast” part is there to remind us that even our faith is a gift from God. And if by grace, it cannot be by our works, can it?

Both faith and the works mentioned in Eph 2 are gifts of grace-and gifts that we are expected to respond to, to “invest” as per the Parable of the Talents.
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48

BTW, the thief on the cross did just that, the best he could with what he was given. Had he been able to come down from his cross, with more time to act on his faith, more would’ve been expected of him.

 

[nogames]

Both faith and the works mentioned in Eph 2 are gifts of grace-and gifts that we are expected to respond to, to “invest” as per the Parable of the Talents.
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48

BTW, the thief on the cross did just that, the best he could with what he was given. Had he been able to come down from his cross, with more time to act on his faith, more would’ve been expected of him.

Where is the good news in your “gospel”? Is grace a free gift given by a merciful God, or is it the beginning of an unending series of obligations, duties, and payments?

 

[Reuben_J]

Although I’m not Catholic, and my understanding of Catholic teachings is not exactly advanced, I have come to wonder if the teaching of purgatory might be harmful, especially for new Catholics. What do you say?

It is baisc doctrine of the Catholic Church and therefore, it must be taught. No denying and apologizing about it.

God bless.

 

[Wesrock]

God calls us to be holy and promises to make us holy, something which we cannot do by ourselves and is not something we deserve.

 

[fhansen]

Well, it’s certainly not heaven for some elect and hell for the rest, without regard to our behavior, based on our love, which is the true measure of our righteousness or justice. As Paul says, “If I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing.” And Augustine echoes: “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing”.

The good news: God definitively exists; the light Jesus brought into the world was so bright we shouldn’t be able to ignore Him anymore-or just pretend to serve Him. And that God is infinitely good and trustworthy and merciful; He loves man lavishly, unconditionally, and wants all to come to Him. We can know this God, directly, personally, increasingly, as Jesus reveals Him to us, and to know Him is to love Him, to be transformed into His image. He wants us to love as He does. Our communion with Him, in a relationship of love for Him and neighbor, consitutes our justice.

This begins, from our part in response to grace, with faith. But by no means ends there as if faith is all God desires of us, or for us. Faith is simply the doorway to righteousness, because it’s the doorway to God and the communion with Him, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’, that man was made for.

It amazes me how stunted Protestant theology is, speaking generally.

 

[Wesrock]

Colossians 1:24 - What does Paul mean when he writes of making up through the sufferingsof his own body for what was lacking in the afflictions of Christ?

The idea that God does not intend to make us holy or call us to a true transformation to holiness is far more unthinkable to me than the idea that God expects us to actually consent to follow Christ Jesus.

So what about after the resurrection? Will people still be at risk of lust, stealing, fornicatelong, blaspheming, or gossiping behind people’s backs?