Purgatory-the risks of teaching it to new Catholics

[ReadTheBible]

And yes, I believe that most of the people in Heaven went through purgatory.

How do you explain, just curious, the verses that contradict this train of thought?

Jesus said that all who have died are still their graves. John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

These are the words of Jesus and such take priority over any living being.

Do you believe once a person dies they are judged only to be awoken when Christ returns to be judged again?

The Early Church Fathers wrote about purgatory, there is plenty of evidence for its historic belief.

I don’t doubt that but again tradition or what the church places value on isn’t at the same level as divine scripture (to me). I understand it is to catholics but that is what I consider a grave error.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalm 115:7 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

 

[ReadTheBible]

Unlike your responses I give references properly referenced

You’re linking your evidence to catholic answers website

I have only used scripture as my evidence. Would you accept evidence if I provided you links to Non-Catholic websites?

Don’t trust what I say. Trust what scripture says. Indeed let’s look at examples given in scripture on Paul’s interactions with Peter. Have you not read Galations 2:11-21? Paul rebukes Peter publicly for not following the gospel. Paul indeed shows Peter the error in his ways. Did Paul submit to Peter because Peter was to be this all authoritative figure? No indeed, quite the opposite.

You have the Council of Jerusalem. ((EDIT - see Acts 15)) Paul and Barnabas led the delegation on the Gentile’s behalf that they did not have to follow the Jews’ Mosaic Law concerning circumcision. All the apostles and elders gathered to make a decision. Both Peter and James agreed with Paul that the gentiles need not be circumcised. Here’s the most interesting part to take note of. They didn’t all gather together and ask Peter what he should decree. Peter was no more head of the church than Paul, or James. You’re free to think otherwise but it’s not backed up by scripture. If Peter held the authority over all teachings, as the Pope does for the catholic church today, there would be absolutely no need for a conference. Peter would have simply decreed it so without anyone else’s (name removed by moderator)ut. Do you see the difference? Peter was not a Pope. Very, very, vastly, far from it.

Happy Easter weekend!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Could anyone officially go to heaven in the OT? If they could, then they didn’t need Jesus, and The OT would have been just fine. No need for the NT either.

The OT speaks in types and shadows.

No human has entered heaven except Jesus** and he’s the one who said this in John 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

He also said As a promise, his Father’s heavenly home has many rooms, and he goes ahead to prepare a place for them / us He doesn’t suggest waiting till the end of time before that happens.

John sees saints in heaven offering prayers for those here on earth.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The NT was written in, by, for, the Catholic Church

That is heresy. The word of God was with God in the beginning and he promised it would last forever…

John 1:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

God’s word is for all. You say it is “for, the Catholic Church” - that’s simply not true.

Matthew Mark Luke John Peter Paul James etc are ALL in the Church Jesus established on Peter and those in union with Peter. That’s the Catholic Church.

Ergo my statement that the NT was written in, by, for, the Catholic Church is 100% true.

I gave proof properly referenced for the “Catholic Church” scripturally and historically but you opened only one link out of all the links given.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Unlike your responses I give references properly referenced

You’re linking your evidence to catholic answers website

I have only used scripture as my evidence. Would you accept evidence if I provided you links to Non-Catholic websites?

Don’t trust what I say. Trust what scripture says. Indeed let’s look at examples given in scripture on Paul’s interactions with Peter. Have you not read Galations 2:11-21? Paul rebukes Peter publicly for not following the gospel. Paul indeed shows Peter the error in his ways. Did Paul submit to Peter because Peter was to be this all authoritative figure? No indeed, quite the opposite.

You musta missed all the scriptural proof offered in those CA links.

Re: Gal 2 and Paul rebukes Peter

ReadTheBible:

You have the Council of Jerusalem. ((EDIT - see Acts 15)) Paul and Barnabas led the delegation on the Gentile’s behalf that they did not have to follow the Jews’ Mosaic Law concerning circumcision. All the apostles and elders gathered to make a decision. Both Peter and James agreed with Paul that the gentiles need not be circumcised. Here’s the most interesting part to take note of. They didn’t all gather together and ask Peter what he should decree. Peter was no more head of the church than Paul, or James. You’re free to think otherwise but it’s not backed up by scripture. If Peter held the authority over all teachings, as the Pope does for the catholic church today, there would be absolutely no need for a conference. Peter would have simply decreed it so without anyone else’s (name removed by moderator)ut. Do you see the difference? Peter was not a Pope. Very, very, vastly, far from it.

Your reading of that council conclusion is incorrect.

Peter gave the conclusion, James who was the bishop of Jerusalem applied Peter’s closing statement Paul and Barnabas didn’t offer their own conclusion or change what Peter said.

ReadTheBible:

Happy Easter weekend!

Same in return

 

[nogames]

This is all spelled out in the Catechism, and referenced. 1020-1041 is pretty specific.

And God can’t purify everyone - because some turn against Him. (And this is across Christianity; as a Methodist I was taught about Hell for certain.)

CCC, 1033: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.

Hi Pup7, Where in Scripture do we find that, “we cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him.”?

Where in Scripture is it written that those who’s bad works are burned become purified by having their bad works burned?

 

[steve-b]

Pup7:

This is all spelled out in the Catechism, and referenced. 1020-1041 is pretty specific.

And God can’t purify everyone - because some turn against Him. (And this is across Christianity; as a Methodist I was taught about Hell for certain.)

CCC, 1033: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.

Hi Pup7, Where in Scripture do we find that, “we cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him.”?

Jesus answers that when He makes a conditional statement

nogames:

Where in Scripture is it written that those who’s bad works are burned become purified by having their bad works burned?

It’s an analogy

OT analogy refiners & Fire

The NT analogy has already been given multiple times

 

[nogames]

nogames:

Pup7:

This is all spelled out in the Catechism, and referenced. 1020-1041 is pretty specific.

And God can’t purify everyone - because some turn against Him. (And this is across Christianity; as a Methodist I was taught about Hell for certain.)

CCC, 1033: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.

Hi Pup7, Where in Scripture do we find that, “we cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him.”?

Jesus answers that when He makes a conditional statement

nogames:

Where in Scripture is it written that those who’s bad works are burned become purified by having their bad works burned?

It’s an analogy

OT analogy refiners & Fire

The NT analogy has already been given multiple times

I was hoping that my questions would be answered. They were not. Here are the two questions:

Where in Scripture do we find that, “we cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him.”?

Where in Scripture is it written that those who’s bad works are burned become purified by having their bad works burned?

I realize that you are able to quote passages that contain this word or that word from my question. But cutting and pasting passages that contain a word that appears in my question(s) in itself, doesn’t mean that you’ve answered the questions!

 

[vz71]

Where in Scripture do we find that, “we cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him.”?

Do you suggest God force himself upon those that do not love him?

 

[nogames]

nogames:

Where in Scripture do we find that, “we cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him.”?

Do you suggest God force himself upon those that do not love him?

It is certainly not for me to judge God, regarding what I think He ought to do, or not do. I asked because the pattern is now well established:

Whenever I ask for biblical proof of assertions being made here, no Scripture proof is given. Instead, what is being passed as “proof” is either CCC quotes or Scripture that pertains not to the topic in question.

 

[Pup7]

Where in Scripture is it written that all teaching comes from Scripture alone?

You might not agree with us, but at least know when to quit. It’s been repeated time and time and time again.

You don’t agree. We get that. Flogging a dead horse is a waste of time for everyone.

Even the Methodists don’t believe in sola scriptura. Prima scriptura, sure - but I was never taught that Scripture is the sole source of teaching. There’s nothing more for anyone to say here. Catholics take the CCC as a sourcebook. You don’t. Why do you care so much since our beliefs really have no direct effect on you anyway?

 

[vz71]

Whenever I ask for biblical proof of assertions being made here, no Scripture proof is given.

Why limit ourselves to scriptural tradition?
We have the church.

Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a church.

He gave us the sacraments to strengthen us.
He gave us priests to administer the sacraments and teach us.
Scripture alone does not stand.

As the Eunuch said, how do I know what it says if I am not taught?

 

[angel12]

Whenever I ask for biblical proof of assertions being made here, no Scripture proof is given. Instead, what is being passed as “proof” is either CCC quotes or Scripture that pertains not to the topic in question.

Actually, what happens is that when you are given Scripture to support Purgatory, you say “no, that’s not what it says.” Which isn’t surprising, given the way you began this thread.

Nowhere does the Bible say that everything is in the Bible. In fact, the end of the Gospel of John says exactly the opposite.

 

[nogames]

nogames:

Whenever I ask for biblical proof of assertions being made here, no Scripture proof is given. Instead, what is being passed as “proof” is either CCC quotes or Scripture that pertains not to the topic in question.

Actually, what happens is that when you are given Scripture to support Purgatory, you say “no, that’s not what it says.” Which isn’t surprising, given the way you began this thread.

Nowhere does the Bible say that everything is in the Bible. In fact, the end of the Gospel of John says exactly the opposite.

I appreciate the honesty that I’m finally seeing here from several of you! After all of this, you are now willing to admit what I’ve been saying all along: There is no mention of a place like purgatory in Scripture. The doctrine of purgatory has simply been invented. Thank you for being honest enough to admit it. I guess I’ve completed all that I need to say on this topic. Have a wonderful Easter everyone!

 

[Pup7]

Actually, no one has said that.

Like your interpretations, it’s what you’ve chosen to surmise. It’s not what you’ve been told.

 

[vz71]

After all of this, you are now willing to admit what I’ve been saying all along: There is no mention of a place like purgatory in Scripture.

No one has said this.
You are being dishonest.

 

[nogames]

nogames:

After all of this, you are now willing to admit what I’ve been saying all along: There is no mention of a place like purgatory in Scripture.

No one has said this.
You are being dishonest.

No, I’m telling you exactly what has been said here. The reasons being given for the failure to find any Scriptural reference to support the Catholic teaching of purgatory is that “Scripture Alone” is not what you believe in, or are limited by.

Here’s one: “Why limit ourselves to scriptural tradition? We have the church. Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a church.”

Here’s another: “Nowhere does the Bible say that everything is in the Bible. In fact, the end of the Gospel of John says exactly the opposite.”

Here’s another: “Even the Methodists don’t believe in sola scriptura. Prima scriptura, sure - but I was never taught that Scripture is the sole source of teaching.”

 

[Pup7]

Well, you’ve proven you’ll take anything out of context if it suits your argument. You’re consistent if nothing else.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

nogames:

Pup7:

This is all spelled out in the Catechism, and referenced. 1020-1041 is pretty specific.

And God can’t purify everyone - because some turn against Him. (And this is across Christianity; as a Methodist I was taught about Hell for certain.)

CCC, 1033: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.

Hi Pup7, Where in Scripture do we find that, “we cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him.”?

Jesus answers that when He makes a conditional statement

nogames:

Where in Scripture is it written that those who’s bad works are burned become purified by having their bad works burned?

It’s an analogy

OT analogy refiners & Fire

The NT analogy has already been given multiple times

I was hoping that my questions would be answered. They were not. Here are the two questions:

Where in Scripture do we find that, “we cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him.”?

You were given the answer “from scripture” just as you asked

nogames:

Where in Scripture is it written that those who’s bad works are burned become purified by having their bad works burned?

I realize that you are able to quote passages that contain this word or that word from my question. But cutting and pasting passages that contain a word that appears in my question(s) in itself, doesn’t mean that you’ve answered the questions!

Your questions were answered using “scripture”.

Now what is this REALLY all about?

 

[nogames]

Your questions were answered using “scripture”. Now what is this REALLY all about?

You know what it’s really about. The burden of proof is on the Catholic church, if they are going to say that purgatory is a teaching from the bible. In spite of several attempts to change the subject or make this discussion about me, I wouldn’t take the bait.

If you still want to prove your assertion that purgatory is a teaching from the bible, I’m willing to wait for your proof. I will continue to be patient, honest, and reasonable, and I will continue to treat you all with respect. This is my promise to all of you. God bless, and Happy Easter, everyone!