Purgatory-the risks of teaching it to new Catholics

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Your questions were answered using “scripture”. Now what is this REALLY all about?

You know what it’s really about. The burden of proof is on the Catholic church, if they are going to say that purgatory is a teaching from the bible. In spite of several attempts to change the subject or make this discussion about me, I wouldn’t take the bait.

People see what you’re doing. Your coming from a tradition who invented sola scriptura. So here’s the REAL question for you. Prove from the bible alone, that the bible alone teaches it’s the bible alone. for everything or it is NOT to be believed

nogames:

If you still want to prove your assertion that purgatory is a teaching from the bible, I’m willing to wait for your proof. I will continue to be patient, honest, and reasonable, and I will continue to treat you all with respect. This is my promise to all of you. God bless, and Happy Easter, everyone!

It’s already been shown where the objective existence, not the name, is in the bible .

As for me, I just give information. What you do with it is your choice.

 

[vz71]

You have asked for scripture references.
They were provided.

You have also been provided extra biblical tradition, church fathers, and the catechism.

You have not even attempted to refute these.

Therefore, to use you logic, I accept your concession.

 

[Pup7]

Prove from the bible alone, that the bible alone teaches it’s the bible alone. for everything or it is NOT to be believed

He can’t. What’s even better is he knows he can’t, so he avoids the question. He’s eluded it numerous times and clipped my own words and twisted them regarding a non-Catholic belief in the exact same principle - that sola scriptura is just not the way this works. It’s sort of funny that he used that to try and make his point, when in reality it just refuted it.

Now what is this REALLY all about?

I bet it starts with the letter “t”.

 

[nogames]

You have asked for scripture references.
They were provided.

You have also been provided extra biblical tradition, church fathers, and the catechism.

You have not even attempted to refute these.

Therefore, to use you logic, I accept your concession.

Why would you think that I need to refute extra biblical tradition, church fathers, and the catechism? I started a topic on the teaching of purgatory. I have raised the question, “is purgatory a biblical teaching?” And, “should it be taught?” But most of you want to talk about other things. Why is that?

 

[vz71]

started a topic on the teaching of purgatory. I have raised the question, “is purgatory a biblical teaching?” And, “should it be taught?”

No you didn’t.
You started it this way.

Although I’m not Catholic, and my understanding of Catholic teachings is not exactly advanced, I have come to wonder if the teaching of purgatory might be harmful, especially for new Catholics. What do you say?

More dishonesty.
Par for your course.

It is very informative that many anticatholics in attacking church teaching eventually convert to Catholicism or become very dishonest.

 

[nogames]

nogames:

started a topic on the teaching of purgatory. I have raised the question, “is purgatory a biblical teaching?” And, “should it be taught?”

No you didn’t.
You started it this way.

Although I’m not Catholic, and my understanding of Catholic teachings is not exactly advanced, I have come to wonder if the teaching of purgatory might be harmful, especially for new Catholics. What do you say?

More dishonesty.
Par for your course.

It is very informative that many anticatholics in attacking church teaching eventually convert to Catholicism or become very dishonest.

Hi vz71, don’t worry, I will remain honest with all of you.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

How do you explain, just curious, the verses that contradict this train of thought?

Jesus said that all who have died are still their graves. John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

These are the words of Jesus and such take priority over any living being.

Do you believe once a person dies they are judged only to be awoken when Christ returns to be judged again?

They are physically in their graves, yes. The general resurrection has not taken place yet. But that has nothing to do with their spiritual state. When a person dies, their soul separates form their body. They are judged at their particular judgment, where their final eternal state is determined. Then, at Christ’s second coming, there will be the general judgment. This is not a re-judgment, as many Protestants seem to think Catholics believe. This is when all of God’s plan will be revealed. it is when we will see how our choices and the choices of others influenced the world and ultimately led to God’s triumph.

I don’t doubt that but again tradition or what the church places value on isn’t at the same level as divine scripture (to me). I understand it is to catholics but that is what I consider a grave error.

This is somewhat funny, considering that the cannon of scripture is a Catholic Tradition. It was the Catholic Church that compiled it and made the final declarations about which books were and were not in the Bible. This is a matter of strict historical fact. You are rejecting Tradition in favor of a book that only exists because of Tradition…

There is an excellent book on this subject, written by a Protestant pastor, that I think would be a great read for you.

Where we Got the Bible - Henry Graham

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

I think a bit of greater context is important here:

1
All this I have kept in my heart and all this I examined: The just, the wise, and their deeds are in the hand of God. Love from hatred* mortals cannot tell; both are before them.
2
Everything is the same for everybody: the same lot for the just and the wicked, for the good, for the clean and the unclean, for the one who offers sacrifice and the one who does not. As it is for the good, so it is for the sinner; as it is for the one who takes an oath, so it is for the one who fears an oath.
3
Among all the things that are done under the sun, this is the worst, that there is one lot for all. Hence the hearts of human beings are filled with evil, and madness is in their hearts during life; and afterward—to the dead!
4
For whoever is chosen among all the living has hope: “A live dog is better off than a dead lion.”
5
For the living know that they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost.
6
For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. Never again will they have part in anything that is done under the sun.

(sorry if i missed any annotations)

Looking at it in the greater context, this passage is clearly discussing the fact that the dead can no longer change their state. They are either saved or damned. This is what the Church believes. Purgatory is not some third option that is neither. Those in Purgatory are saved, they just have some healing to go through before they make it to Heaven.

It also seems that this verse is specifically talking about the damned.

Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalm 115:7 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

I think our Psalm numbering may be different, because Psalm 115:7 is clearly talking about pagan idols. Could you post more of it so we could have some more context. Context is key in interpreting any piece of scripture.

4
Their idols are silver and gold,

the work of human hands.

5
They have mouths but do not speak,

eyes but do not see.

6
They have ears but do not hear,

noses but do not smell.

7
They have hands but do not feel,

feet but do not walk;

they produce no sound from their throats.

8
Their makers will be like them,

and anyone who trusts in them.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

As for Paslm 146: this is clearly discussing human princes and their ineffectiveness.

1
Hallelujah!

2
Praise the LORD, my soul;

I will praise the LORD all my life,

sing praise to my God while I live.

3
Put no trust in princes,

in children of Adam powerless to save.

4
Who breathing his last, returns to the earth;

that day all his planning comes to nothing.

This is clearly talking about the fact that you cannot put your trust anywhere but in God, as no human effort is capable of saving you.

You are taking many quotes out of context in an effort to prove your point. Nothing you’ve written here could even remotely be considered a refutation against Purgatory.

 

[Bre6785]

Because you die as you lived. After dearth, your will is “minted” where it was at the end of life. Hence a death bed conversion. Purgatory does nothing to your will. It completes your will if your will at death was repentance and desire to be with God. Baptized by fire (desire). If die unrepentant, hell. If you die perfected, ie canonized saints, heaven. If you die repentant, but unclean (earthly attachment) purgatory. .
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.
Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.
Now, i know you do not have Maccabees in your bible, but if you want the same books (Septuagint) Jesus read from growing up, you would.
2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

 

[Pup7]

There is an excellent book on this subject, written by a Protestant pastor, that I think would be a great read for you.

Where we Got the Bible - Henry Graham

Ah! I just bought this at a thrift store, of all places!! It’s my next read!

 

[steve-b]

ProdglArchitect:

There is an excellent book on this subject, written by a Protestant pastor, that I think would be a great read for you.

Where we Got the Bible - Henry Graham

Ah! I just bought this at a thrift store, of all places!! It’s my next read!

I wonder what happened to nogames and Readthebible?

 

[Pup7]

I’m sure he (she?) will be back after a period of rejuvenation.

 

[steve-b]

I’m sure he (she?) will be back after a period of rejuvenation.

Things were just getting interesting with nogames and ReadTheBible

 

[PureKathleen46]

I suggest reading Susan Tassone’s book Day by Day. It is a reflection of 365 days to remember the holy souls in purgatory. Wonderful readings to understand why purgatory is necessary! God bless you!

 

[MonteRCMS]

Fr. Benedict Groeschel [RIP] has written well on this topic.

 

[Wakire]

Well considering that nogames’ last reply was

Hi vz71, don’t worry, I will remain honest with all of you.

And we haven’t heard from him since…
I guess that means he has nothing of truth with which to reply.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I was just reading Dickens. Interesting view of purgatory or Hell.

“The misery with them all was, clearly, that they sought to interfere, for good, in human matters, and had lost the power for ever.”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

How did a thread from last May suddenly resurrect itself onto the active forum?

 

[MT1926]

It’s a Christmas miracle.