Purgatory vs. Luke 23:43

[Befink]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Tietjen]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

A few thoughts… First, we pay for our sins both here and in Purgatory. We have no idea what the “good” thief has gone through in his life. Second, how do we know that the “good thief” was some hardened criminal? Perhaps he stole something in order to feed his family. Third, we tend to get all wrapped around the issue of time. What is time as it relates to the next life? We know that God is outside of time, so right now, He is looking for Adam in the Garden of Eden, He is guiding the Israelites in the desert, He is watching his son lay down His life on the cross, He is witnessing the wars in the middle east, and He is taking part in the final days of this Heaven and Earth. So when God says “today” how should that term be defined? Lastly, if God rules Heaven and Jesus is the Son of God (and IS God) can He not say who may enter and when they may do so? Just my thoughts.

 

[po18guy]

One huge factor: It could not have been heaven, as Jesus had not yet ascended. It could not have been hell, as there is no return from that state. So, where was it?

Clues are found in the very scriptures that your friends may have glossed over.

1 Peter 3:18-21
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Sure wasn’t heaven “in prison”!

1 Peter 4:5-6
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
Who shall render account to him, who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

Not heaven, and not hell. Rather a “prison” where there was hope of getting out. This does not fit Protestant doctrine at all…But, where?

Look at the parable of Lazarus and the rich man:

Luke 16:19-31
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Notice that father Abraham was there (Jesus called Abraham “father” ), but God was not. Why? They were in the prison that Peter wrote of. The prison that existed so that sins could be forgiven “in the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). Yet, Abraham was not suffering. Lazarus was not suffering - rather, he was being comforted. They had hope of being released one day - from a state which the Church calls purgatory.

 

[thistle]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

Father Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary:

PARADISE. A synonym for Heaven. Jesus spoke of it in his promise to the good thief on the Cross (Luke 23:43). In only two other places in Scripture is it used in place of Heaven. There is a reference to “the tree of life set in God’s paradise” (Revelation 2:7). Paul wrote about a man in Christ “caught up into paradise” (II Corinthians 12:4). (Etym. Greek paradeisos, park, the Garden of Eden, paradise; from Persian pairidaēza, an enclosure.)

As for the criminals on the cross beside Jesus it was only one of them who repented and acknowledged Jesus for who he is. In doing this he underwent a baptism of desire and would go to straight to Heaven after death. This would apply to a catechumen in RCIA as well.
Anyone dying immediately after baptism goes straight to Heaven.

 

[Sam_777]

A few thoughts… First, we pay for our sins both here and in Purgatory. We have no idea what the “good” thief has gone through in his life. Second, how do we know that the “good thief” was some hardened criminal? Perhaps he stole something in order to feed his family. Third, we tend to get all wrapped around the issue of time. What is time as it relates to the next life? We know that God is outside of time, so right now, He is looking for Adam in the Garden of Eden, He is guiding the Israelites in the desert, He is watching his son lay down His life on the cross, He is witnessing the wars in the middle east, and He is taking part in the final days of this Heaven and Earth. So when God says “today” how should that term be defined? Lastly, if God rules Heaven and Jesus is the Son of God (and IS God) can He not say who may enter and when they may do so? Just my thoughts.

 

[Pitcharan]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

To know who needs purgatory we must understand the salvation process made crystal clear by our Lord’s life and teachings. The eternal punishment we incur for our sins is firstly canceled by the process called JUSTIFICATION and the defilement that causes us to sin is cleansed by the process called SANCTIFICATION.

JUSTIFICATION or removal of sins: Sin is a debt that we cannot repay as Satan claims our souls; yet God who has ransomed us with the blood of His Son, is able to cancel the debt of sin for many good reasons:* “Love covers a multitude of sins; if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you”*. (1Pet 4:8b, Mt 6:14)

SANCTIFICATION or freedom from slavery to sin: Suffering is the only remedy available for cleansing interior defilement and uprooting the very cause of sin. Recall what our Lord taught: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ‘For everyone will be salted with fire’.” (Mk 9:43, 49)

To stop sinning is humanly impossible and yet our helplessness is not futility for our God is ‘the help of the helpless’ Whose power is made perfect in our weakness. The battle is truly His and we only have to show our love by refusing to remain slaves and struggling. Freedom is achieved through complete purging of our sinful nature by our own sufferings which can only increase manifold if avoided now and kept for purgation after death.

The good thief apparently went thro enough chastisement and was completely purged of all sinful habits. This is quite possible considering the brutal treatment of thieves those days. Since he was already sanctified he only needed justification which he got for his faith in Jesus. The righteous are justified by faith.

 

[Heuchler]

The thief was dying on a cross, suffering, and asking forgiveness from Christ himself. I would think this would be enough penance and suffering.

 

[puzzleannie]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

this passage actually supports the Catholic view of purgatory and indulgences, and the power of confession. The thief clearly expressed contrition. While we must confess our sins to a priest, Jesus, in whose place the priest stands, already knew them so they did not have to be verbalized. Christ forgave and absolved, and remitted the just punishment for this sins, so indeed the thief could enter heaven when he died. Note that Christ is also the judge at the moment of death and is already saying what that judgement will be. So Christ has the power and authority, which he handed on to the Church, to remit the just punishment for sins that have been confessed and forgiven, which must otherwise be worked out in purgatory for that soul to be cleansed for heaven, and the Church exercises that authority through granding indulgences for pious acts on the part of a person who has confessed, been absolved and is contrite.

 

[catholictiger]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

I would imagine that the guy having faith in the dude one cross over from him acted like baptism of desire, and baptism would have made him clean of EVERYTHING, I think even the debt of punishment. Therefore he wouldn’t have to go to purgatory to reach heaven.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Father Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary:

PARADISE. A synonym for Heaven. Jesus spoke of it in his promise to the good thief on the Cross (Luke 23:43). In only two other places in Scripture is it used in place of Heaven. There is a reference to “the tree of life set in God’s paradise” (Revelation 2:7). Paul wrote about a man in Christ “caught up into paradise” (II Corinthians 12:4). (Etym. Greek paradeisos, park, the Garden of Eden, paradise; from Persian pairidaēza, an enclosure.)

Thistle, I believe we had this conversation before.
Hardon’s definition is shallow.
Let me ask you to clarify: If PARADISIO is HEAVEN, then “Adam” was in Heaven at the beginning. Adam according to the church represents a historical figure who sinned; the details of which are sketchy. If, Paradise is really “Heaven” then, Adam was not on earth but in “heaven” on day 6 and 7. This is folly, for that would mean that Jesus was the one who sinned at the beginning of time; or else, Adam was not a man in the corporeal sense. Neither of these are acceptable in the Catholic Tradion. Original sin, and the two real first parents has not been loosed from disciplinary action for the theory of evolution, it sure hasn’t been for Fr. Hardon’s sloppy study.

As for the criminals on the cross beside Jesus it was only one of them who repented and acknowledged Jesus for who he is. In doing this he underwent a baptism of desire and would go to straight to Heaven after death. This would apply to a catechumen in RCIA as well.
Anyone dying immediately after baptism goes straight to Heaven.

There are several details being conflated here. Jesus calls the cross itself a baptism – and it wasn’t a baptism of “desire” for Jesus. Although it might be a baptism of desire for the criminal it also might be a real baptism into death itself.

Luke 23:39 And one of those robbers who were hanged blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luke 23:40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing; thou art under the same condemnation?
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly: for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this man hath done no evil.

Explain why the words of the first thief are blasphemy; He doesn’t know who Jesus is, but is begging that he save them both. (Jesus means, God saves).
The second thief says, “we receive the due reward”

If Paradise is equivocal, meaning one thing in one place, and something different in another – then you have no witness for your claim. Heaven is a made a mockery.
Again, In the very passage you cite from the book of Revelaion – it says in the Very Next Sentence – “I am the Alpha and the Omega”; and the church fathers talk about that being the first Adam, and the Last Adam. If Paradise is heaven, then Adam came down from heaven is inescapable. But Adam sinned! (A real sin says the Catholic church, the Original sin, Check the CCC).

Jesus also says, Only he who CAME DOWN from heaven can GO UP TO HEAVEN.

I am just telling you that rich men built gardens in those days; and if they could build walls to protect them – they were called “Paradise”.

Jesus stopped breathing on the Cross – but God preserved his body from invasion by the devil in a garden. I will not suffer my faithful servant to undergo corruption; see also the Devils attempt to Get Moses’s body.

Some RCIA thoughts:
What man put Jesus’ body in the tomb – a poor one or a rich one?
Why did the legs of the the co-crucified have to be broken, but Jesus’ did not?

Here is the Greek and the Latin and LXX of the prophecy Isaiah made concerning the burial of the messiah;

DRB:
Isaia 53:9 And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth.
Isaia 53:10 And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a longlived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.
Isaia 53:9 ויתן את-רשעים קברו ואת-עשיר במתיו על לא-חמס עשה ולא מרמה בפיו.
Isaia 53:9 Et dabit impios pro sepultura,/ et divitem pro morte sua,/ eo quod iniquitatem non fecerit,/ neque dolus fuerit in ore ejus./
Isaia 53:9 και δωσω τους πονηρους αντι της ταφης αυτου και τους πλουσιους αντι του θανατου αυτου οτι ανομιαν ουκ εποιησεν ουδε ευρεθη δολος εν τω στοματι αυτου

Isaiah in the LXX reads in the present, “I will gift (continuously) the PORNROUS…”

And the KNOX bible reads:
Takes he leave of the rich, the godless, to win but a grave, to win the gift of death.

I’ll give you a hint – Isaiah was between the cherubim and under the Seraphim when the coal of FIRE was taken from the altar and touched to his lips to PURGATORY him before speaking.

I don’t think you’re being careful in what you say; and REALLY Hardon is too shallow to defend your apologetic.

Best wishes, but I don’t know how to get the message across to you…
You’re treading on dangerous interpretation; even Paul shut his mouth and said “I don’t know whether it was…”; Don’t follow Paul – follow Peter, God didn’t have to send a demon to stop up Peter’s pride like he did to Paul in order to save him.
I don’t know is a perfectly good answer…!

 

[Befink]

Thanks for your help everyone. *I think I’m getting it.

We’re saying there are two things a person must ultimately do to get into heaven.

1. Believe that Jesus died for our salvation
2. Be cleansed of sin

Doing only step 1 guarantees we wont go to hell but if we are unclean we can’t go to heaven. *We can be unclean on earth first through baptism, then through penance. *To the extent we failed to receive penance for all sins before death, we need purgatory to be fully cleansed.

The thief was baptized right before death and therefore was fully cleansed regardless of his questionable past. *It’s also true that the Bible has many references to judging the living and the dead meaning they have to be somewhere else besides heaven or hell.

I certainly feel the concept of purgatory is philosophically superior to their alternative. *In the Protestant view, it’s black and white, pass/fail, heaven or hell. *They say Jesus died for us so we go straight to heaven for believing in him. *To me it feels like a cop-out to get a free pass into heaven while living in sin. *Conversely, the Church acknowledges that we don’t know what happens to those who live spiritual non-Christian lives. *We teach tolerance (not to be confused with acceptance) while Protestants automatically send them all to hell. *Ultimately billions of people have died, each with their own stories. *Certainly our compassionate God would have considered all this and created a mechanism where we can be purified according to our individual imperfections.

Thanks for assisting me on my journey.

 

[Nelka]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

If Jesus Christ wants somebody to go straight to Heaven than they will.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks for your help everyone. *I think I’m getting it.

We’re saying there are two things a person must ultimately do to get into heaven.

1. Believe that Jesus died for our salvation
2. Be cleansed of sin

Doing only step 1 guarantees we wont go to hell but if we are unclean we can’t go to heaven. *We can be unclean on earth first through baptism, then through penance. *To the extent we failed to receive penance for all sins before death, we need purgatory to be fully cleansed.

The thief was baptized right before death and therefore was fully cleansed regardless of his questionable past. *It’s also true that the Bible has many references to judging the living and the dead meaning they have to be somewhere else besides heaven or hell.

I certainly feel the concept of purgatory is philosophically superior to their alternative. *In the Protestant view, it’s black and white, pass/fail, heaven or hell. *They say Jesus died for us so we go straight to heaven for believing in him. *To me it feels like a cop-out to get a free pass into heaven while living in sin. *Conversely, the Church acknowledges that we don’t know what happens to those who live spiritual non-Christian lives. *We teach tolerance (not to be confused with acceptance) while Protestants automatically send them all to hell. *Ultimately billions of people have died, each with their own stories. *Certainly our compassionate God would have considered all this and created a mechanism where we can be purified according to our individual imperfections.

Thanks for assisting me on my journey.

The only thing is that the “good thief” (Dismas) probably did not go to heaven that night. Heaven was closed to man at the fall from grace at Eden, and was not opened to man until Jesus ascended. This gives indication that a state of purification apparently exists for all who are ultimately “saved”, yet bear some level of sin on their souls. Nothing sinful may enter heaven, as we learn from Revelation 21:27.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? Very highly recommended, especially when in RCIA. I learn something each time I read it.

 

[inkaneer]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

Consider this. Jesus tells the thief “…today you will be with me in paradise.” on Good Friday. Now is paradise heaven? Look what Jesus tells Mary in John 20:17:

"Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” [John 20:17] [RSV]

This was Resurrection Sunday morning. Jesus states He had not yet ascended to the Father. So if Jesus had not ascended to heaven and the thief was with Him then how could the thief be in heaven? Did the thief beat Jesus into heaven? Hardly. Paradise more aptly applies to purgatory as that is where Jesus went after his death on the cross. In the Creed we say that Jesus, “…descended into hell, the third day he arose from the dead…”

 

[thistle]

Thistle, I believe we had this conversation before.
Hardon’s definition is shallow.
Let me ask you to clarify: If PARADISIO is HEAVEN, then “Adam” was in Heaven at the beginning. Adam according to the church represents a historical figure who sinned; the details of which are sketchy. If, Paradise is really “Heaven” then, Adam was not on earth but in “heaven” on day 6 and 7. This is folly, for that would mean that Jesus was the one who sinned at the beginning of time; or else, Adam was not a man in the corporeal sense. Neither of these are acceptable in the Catholic Tradion. Original sin, and the two real first parents has not been loosed from disciplinary action for the theory of evolution, it sure hasn’t been for Fr. Hardon’s sloppy study.

There are several details being conflated here. Jesus calls the cross itself a baptism – and it wasn’t a baptism of “desire” for Jesus. Although it might be a baptism of desire for the criminal it also might be a real baptism into death itself.

Luke 23:39 And one of those robbers who were hanged blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luke 23:40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing; thou art under the same condemnation?
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly: for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this man hath done no evil.

Explain why the words of the first thief are blasphemy; He doesn’t know who Jesus is, but is begging that he save them both. (Jesus means, God saves).
The second thief says, “we receive the due reward”

If Paradise is equivocal, meaning one thing in one place, and something different in another – then you have no witness for your claim. Heaven is a made a mockery.
Again, In the very passage you cite from the book of Revelaion – it says in the Very Next Sentence – “I am the Alpha and the Omega”; and the church fathers talk about that being the first Adam, and the Last Adam. If Paradise is heaven, then Adam came down from heaven is inescapable. But Adam sinned! (A real sin says the Catholic church, the Original sin, Check the CCC).

Jesus also says, Only he who CAME DOWN from heaven can GO UP TO HEAVEN.

I am just telling you that rich men built gardens in those days; and if they could build walls to protect them – they were called “Paradise”.

Jesus stopped breathing on the Cross – but God preserved his body from invasion by the devil in a garden. I will not suffer my faithful servant to undergo corruption; see also the Devils attempt to Get Moses’s body.

Some RCIA thoughts:
What man put Jesus’ body in the tomb – a poor one or a rich one?
Why did the legs of the the co-crucified have to be broken, but Jesus’ did not?

Here is the Greek and the Latin and LXX of the prophecy Isaiah made concerning the burial of the messiah;

DRB:
Isaia 53:9 And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth.
Isaia 53:10 And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a longlived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.
Isaia 53:9 ויתן את-רשעים קברו ואת-עשיר במתיו על לא-חמס עשה ולא מרמה בפיו.
Isaia 53:9 Et dabit impios pro sepultura,/ et divitem pro morte sua,/ eo quod iniquitatem non fecerit,/ neque dolus fuerit in ore ejus./
Isaia 53:9 και δωσω τους πονηρους αντι της ταφης αυτου και τους πλουσιους αντι του θανατου αυτου οτι ανομιαν ουκ εποιησεν ουδε ευρεθη δολος εν τω στοματι αυτου

Isaiah in the LXX reads in the present, “I will gift (continuously) the PORNROUS…”

And the KNOX bible reads:
Takes he leave of the rich, the godless, to win but a grave, to win the gift of death.

I’ll give you a hint – Isaiah was between the cherubim and under the Seraphim when the coal of FIRE was taken from the altar and touched to his lips to PURGATORY him before speaking.

I don’t think you’re being careful in what you say; and REALLY Hardon is too shallow to defend your apologetic.

Best wishes, but I don’t know how to get the message across to you…
You’re treading on dangerous interpretation; even Paul shut his mouth and said “I don’t know whether it was…”; Don’t follow Paul – follow Peter, God didn’t have to send a demon to stop up Peter’s pride like he did to Paul in order to save him.
I don’t know is a perfectly good answer…!

Not sure why the bolding and quoting does not work but anyway:

Of course, its only YOUR opinion that Father Hardon’s definition is shallow. Does the Church definitively state that your opinion is correct? Does the Church state that the criminal on the cross did not go to Heaven that day? If you can show me a Church document declaring such then I will readily change my opinion.
Correct me if I remember this wrongly but aren’t you also the one who had an opinion that Joseph knew along (even before the Annunciation) that Mary was going to conceive Jesus.

By the way where did you get the idea I said Jesus underwent a baptism of desire. I said it was the criminal on the cross who underwent a baptism of desire.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Thanks for your help everyone. *I think I’m getting it.

We’re saying there are two things a person must ultimately do to get into heaven.

1. Believe that Jesus died for our salvation
2. Be cleansed of sin

Doing only step 1 guarantees we wont go to hell but if we are unclean we can’t go to heaven. *We can be unclean on earth first through baptism, then through penance. *To the extent we failed to receive penance for all sins before death, we need purgatory to be fully cleansed.

I think you mean, clean not unclean; but yes that is the basic idea after Jesus ascended to heaven. There is a subtle problem with respect to why Jesus died and was laid in the tomb; God can’t create evil – and yet, a good God had to deal with the fact that his creations might rebel. Jesus said, “a house divided against itself can not stand.” – so that it is important to understand "Nothing unclean may enter heaven is true for that reason as well.

God does not tell us all the details of how a person gets to heaven; and this is for a good reason, I think; The Devil’s children (even if not the Devil himself) uses the information he has from us in order to attempt to destroy us; The Devil and his angels are here with us, and spying on us – but they can’t read our hearts and that’s why they accuse falsely – for they DONT KNOW THE TRUTH of what happened, nor God’s exact plan but can only gamble…

Jude 1:9 When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee.
Jude 1:10 But these men blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted.
(Satan was a serpent…)

Consider:
Even St. Michael Kept it a secret as to how Moses’ body could be saved; which means the devil still doesn’t know why.

The thief was baptized right before death and therefore was fully cleansed regardless of his questionable past. *It’s also true that the Bible has many references to judging the living and the dead meaning they have to be somewhere else besides heaven or hell.

Not necessarily, but you are almost right. The repentant thief was baptized (Church says he’s a saint – so is Adam) – but we are not privy to exactly which baptism Christ gave him and the exact moment; but let us suppose it was desire. The devil had already infected the man’s soul and that was why he was crucified (by his own admission he judged himself badly which is also problematic). Notice; Jesus died before the others; which means they still had time to dispair, experience a lust, begrudge the Roans for jeering, or any number of things.

Jesus’ words to the theif include some obscurity as to HOW the man was ultimately saved; We do surmise it is a baptism, but if he sinned even venially after the moment of his baptism – purification would still be required.

The church claims him to be a saint, and so he is; but for the sake of others who God can save the same way – I think it best not to “claim” knowledge of exactly how.

I certainly feel the concept of purgatory is philosophically superior to their alternative. *In the Protestant view, it’s black and white, pass/fail, heaven or hell. *They say Jesus died for us so we go straight to heaven for believing in him. *To me it feels like a cop-out to get a free pass into heaven while living in sin.

Peter said rightly, “Paul says some things which are HARD to understand, and the unlearned and the unstable twist them to their own destruction”

*Conversely, the Church acknowledges that we don’t know what happens to those who live spiritual non-Christian lives. *We teach tolerance (not to be confused with acceptance) while Protestants automatically send them all to hell. *Ultimately billions of people have died, each with their own stories. *Certainly our compassionate God would have considered all this and created a mechanism where we can be purified according to our individual imperfections.

Thanks for assisting me on my journey.

You’re welcome, and there will be more bumps and bruises; but if you love him, and take the lowest place, even when it hurts – I really believe something absolutely fantastic will eventually happen.

(When the Devil isn’t paying close attention that is…! )

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Thistle,

Sorry to see the quote mechanism broke; that’s frustrating.

Correct me if I remember this wrongly but aren’t you also the one who had an opinion that Joseph knew along (even before the Annunciation) that Mary was going to conceive Jesus.

No, I don’t think I would have ever said that. I did say, once, that at the presentation of Jesus at the temple – that it says “their” purification and not Mary’s. Pointing out that Mary and Jesus were included in the description, but only Joseph has original sin; and that the sacrificial offering could also be attributed to Joseph cutting the umbilical cord (if he did, I don’t know…) or touching something unclean in the stable where Jesus was born. (Two turtle doves OR Two young pigeons). So that Mary can’t be proven to be an unclean SINNER because of that Sacrifice.

Not sure why the bolding and quoting does not work but anyway:

Of course, its only YOUR opinion that Father Hardon’s definition is shallow. Does the Church definitively state that your opinion is correct? Does the Church state that the criminal on the cross did not go to Heaven that day? If you can show me a Church document declaring such then I will readily change my opinion.

You’re the one spouting off stuff the Church hasn’t tied together – Hardon’s definition, and the Baptism of the theif.

I offered a scriptural argument as to why one may not apply the definition of paradisio willy nilly as you did from scripture quotes. Your use of Fr. Hardon puts Adam in heaven when the sin of the world first began; That’s forbidden by the doctrine of original sin as taught by the Catholic Church and defined De Fide.
You have to know that, I’ve read your stuff before.

By the way where did you get the idea I said Jesus underwent a baptism of desire. I said it was the criminal on the cross who underwent a baptism of desire.

I didn’t get that idea. I said Jesus did not undergo a baptism of desire; the cross is an ACTUAL baptism. Therefore as the thief was also on a cross – it shows a the thief had access to a non-desire baptism. The church TEACHES that baptism of desire is only accepted IF there were no chance to receive sacramental baptism (eg: another form).

The question is, which baptism saves him and when? if desire, when did the baptism take place – and was there no time left for the theif to sin even venially?

Your speaking to RCIA, I’m just asking you to teach carefully what the church actually says – or defend Fr. Hardon’s definition as “perfect” in your USAGE of it; for you aren’t APPLYING church teaching carefully. You may be right – but for the WRONG reason; and that’s leaving a logical bombshell in the hands of a neophyte RCIA christian. Are you doing this on purpose, thinking it funny?

 

[fred_conty]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

Who was Jesus?
What did He say?
Solves that problem!

 

[fred_conty]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

St. Dismus, the thief, could have gone to purgatory and then gone to heaven.
Jesus died before St. Dismus because they saw that Jesus was already dead,
so the soldiers did not break Jesus’ legs, but they did break the legs of the other two.
So when Jesus died, paradise was opened before the other two died.
However, when St. Dismus died, he may have went to purgatory for a short while before
he went to heaven that very day.

And Jesus may have used the word “paradise” since that was what was closed in
Genesis, and by using that word “paradise” , Jesus was refering to Genesis that paradise now was opened fulfilling the promise made in Genesis.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43 NLT)

I struggled with this earlier when trying to convince my Protestant friends about the existence of purgatory.

He says this to the criminals who were acknowedging his innocence and their own guilt. The word ‘today’ implies that the criminals go straight to heaven despite not having been particularly clean souls.

These criminals had many sins they didn’t confess, were never baptized, weren’t practicing Christians. If they didn’t need purgatory then who does.

Thanks for your help!

Mother Angelica said he had his Purgatory on the Cross. You see, Saint Augustine (Or at least I think it was Saint Augustine) said that Purgation happens either in this life or the next. The Franciscan Brothers of Peace in Saint Paul, Minnesota say that their founder Michael Gaworski had his Purgatory when he was in his vegetative state for about ten years. It can be both physical and mental pain, as far as I know. Therefore, to refute these Protestant friends of yours, simply tell him that he had his Purgatory on his Cross, as we believe it happens either on earth or in this state of Purgatory that is most commonly known.