Purgatory, what does scripture say?

[Petersmate]

can anyone please quote the part of scripture that supports the theological idea of Purgatory.
And can you tell me what the CCC says.

 

[Richard320]

catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is an article I wrote on it

Purgatory is a purification that takes place after death only to those who are saved but have the stain of sin on their soul. Baptism washes away all sin through the shed blood of Christ, but if or when we sin after Baptism and do not deal with it completely we will need to be purified from it in Purgatory after we die. As St Therese of Lisieux once said, Purgatory is an emergency entry to Heaven for those who have wasted their time.

What the Bible says

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about it

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is another resources article on it

Here is what another article has

FROM HOLY SCRIPTURE

There are clear references to Purgatory in both the the Old and the New Testaments. In the Old Testament in 2 Machabees X11 43,46 the Jewish practice of praying for the dead is clearly set out it the following words - 'It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may he loosed from their sins.

In the New Testament Our Blessed Lord in Matthew V 26 refers to the prison from which no one is released before his debts are repaid to the last farthing. St. Paul in Cor. 1,3 15 mentions that there are souls who can only be saved ‘yet so as by fire’. It is also stated in Apocalypse XXI, 27 in reference to heaven - 'There shall in no way enter into it anything defiled". St. Augustine says that these words clearly indicate that there must be forgiveness of some sins in the world to come, which cannot be in heaven as nothing defiled shall enter therein. Therefore Our Blessed Lord is clearly referring to a place which is neither heaven nor hell and which we call Purgatory.

The learned Protestant, Dr. Jeremy Taylor, writes thus about this matter. 'We find by the history of the Machabees, that the Jews did pray and make offerings for the dead which appears by other testimonies, and by their form of prayer, still extant, which they used in the captivity. Now it is very considerable that since Our Blessed Saviour did reprove all the evil doctrines of the Scribes and Pharisees, and did argue concerning the dead and the resurrection, yet he spoke no word against this public practice but left it as he found it which he who came to declare to us all the will of His Father, would not have done, if it had not been innocent, pious and full of charity. The practice of it was at first, and was universal; it being plain in TertulIian and St. Cyprian."

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FROM THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH

"We pray for all among us who are departed believing that this will be the greatest relief for them while the holy and tremendous victim lies present " - St. Cyril Of Jerusalem

“We make yearly offerings for the dead” - Tertullian

“… by long punishment for sin to be cleansed a long time by fire and to have purges away all sin by suffering” - St. Cyprian.

'That you purify me in this life and render me such that 1 may not stand in need of that purging fire" - St. Augustine.

'No day shall pass you over in silence, no prayer of mine shall ever be closed without remembering you. No night shall pass you over without some vows of my supplications. You shall have share in all my sacrifices. If I forget you (now that you are dead) let my own right hand be forgotten" - St. Ambrose.

The Protestant translators of Du Pin observe that St. Chrysostom in his eighth homily on the Phillipians says that to pray for the faithful departed in the Mass was decreed by the Apostles themselves.

St. Clement of Alexandria says that by punishment after death men must expiate every least sin before they can enter heaven.

Origen in many places and Lactantius teach at large that all souls are purged by the punishment of fire before they enter heaven unless they are so pure as not to stand in need of it.

St. Epiphanius, St. Ephrem, St. Athanasius, Eusebius, St. Paulinus all teach the same.

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FROM THE GREAT SAINTS

“No tongue can express, no mind can understand, how dreadful is Purgatory…And be assured that the souls have to pay what they owe even to the last farthing. This is God’s decree to satisfy the demands of justice” -St. Catherine of Genoa.

“Purgatory fire will be more intolerable than all the torments that can be felt or conceived in this life” - Venerable Bede.

“A person may say, I am not much concerned how long I remain in Purgatory, provided I may come to eternal life. Let no one reason thus. Purgatory fire will more dreadful than whatever torment can be seen, imagined or endured in this world.” - St. Caesarius of Arles.

'The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory. The least pain in Purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life." - St. Thomas Aquinas.

"My God, what soul would be sufficiently just to enter heaven without passing through the avenging flames’ - St. Teresa of Avila.

‘If we were thoroughly convinced of the torments of Purgatory, could we then so easily forget our parents… if God would permit them to show themselves we would we would see them cast themselves down at our feet “My children”, they would cry out, "have mercy on us! Oh, do not forsake us!’. - St. John Vianney.

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FROM PRIVATE REVELATION

“When I was praying before the Blessed Sacrament on the Feast of Corpus Christi a person enveloped in fire suddenly stood before me. From the pitiable state the soul was in I knew it was in Purgatory and I wept bitterly” - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque.

At FATIMA in 1917 Our Blessed Lady appeared to three children - Lucy, Jacinta and Francesco. The series of appearances by Our Lady to these three children is approved by the Church. Shortly before they took place a young girl from the village had died. She was about fourteen years old. The children asked Our Blessed Mother whether or not she had been saved. The Blessed Virgin advised them that indeed she had been saved but that she would be in Purgatory until the end of the world. (As a result of this revelation many prayers were offered up for her soul and we can only pray that because of this her souls has now been released into eternal glory). From this most authoritative account we can learn three things:

 

[AnneElliott]

I found this information really interesting. Thanks for brining up the discussion.!

 

[Petersmate]

In the New Testament Our Blessed Lord in Matthew V 26 refers to the prison from which no one is released before his debts are repaid to the last farthing. St. Paul in Cor. 1,3 15 mentions that there are souls who can only be saved ‘yet so as by fire’. It is also stated in Apocalypse XXI, 27 in reference to heaven - 'There shall in no way enter into it anything defiled". St. Augustine says that these words clearly indicate that there must be forgiveness of some sins in the world to come, which cannot be in heaven as nothing defiled shall enter therein. Therefore Our Blessed Lord is clearly referring to a place which is neither heaven nor hell and which we call Purgatory.

So when did the church start using the word purgatory or did I miss that information in what has been posted so far, And thank you very much BTW.

I found this information really interesting. Thanks for brining up the discussion.!

Your welcome. I just don’t think this is talked about enough.

 

[Barelohim]

There is no debt, that anyone can pay, or repay, other than what Jesus has already paid. The unpaid debt referring to be thrown into prision until it is paid. Did anyone ever repay a debt while in prison? No! This refers to those that have been forgiven their debt, but haven’t/or won’t forgive those who had trespassed against them…

“IF you do not forgive, will you be forgiven?” " If you show no mercy, will mercy be shown you?" “If you turn your back on those that need your help, will you be helped?”

Thanks
Bar.

 

[Cadellin]

Did anyone ever repay a debt while in prison?

It depends on what is meant by repaying a debt. When a person is released from prison they are said to have paid their debt to society. In some cases, prisoners are made to do some form of labour and thereby work off their debt. So, to answer your question, yes, many people have repaid their debt while in prison.

 

[Barelohim]

The only debt mankind owes is their life. " The wages of sin is death!" Mankind is born in sin, through the one mans disobediance! Their lives are called for throught the righteousness of God that calls for justice.

Jesus was the sacrifice to pay that debt, by not only taking upon Himself the sin of the sinner, but the sinner him/her self.,.!

As the sinner placed their hands upon the head of the innocent sacrifice, the innocents of the sacrifice came upon the sinner.

Sinners in the new covenant, " died with Christ, were burined with Christ, and arose with Christ, as new creations. Old things passed away, and all things became new. The sinner died, and a new nature/person became alive. One made the righteousness of God.

As Paul put it. " It is no longer * I * who live, but Christ who lives in me!" IF the beleiver died with Christ, then who are we in the new birth? And what would the new one, who is born of God, receiver of His DIvine Nature, bone of His bone, and flesh of His flesh, and His Spirit, owe anyone?

Bar.

 

[Cadellin]

There are those who don’t believe in Purgatory because, they argue, Jesus died for our sins. This is taken to mean that all punishment due to sin was paid for by Christ’s suffering and death. There is, therefore, no need for us to pay for our sins if we seek forgiveness.

It’s like throwing a brick deliberately though a man’s big plate glass window, so the reasoning goes. He is furious with you because of it and would bring the full force of the law down on you. However, if you go and say you’re sorry the man will forgive you and the two of you will be reconcilled. You won’t have to pay for the window because his son has already paid for the it. In fact, he’s already paid for every act of vandelism that has or ever will be committed.

What was the point of Christ’s suffering a death if we have to pay the price of our sins ourselves? So there is not, and can not be, any suffering for those who have had their sins forgiven.

Agree?

 

[Barelohim]

There are those who don’t believe in Purgatory because, they argue, Jesus died for our sins. This is taken to mean that all punishment due to sin was paid for by Christ’s suffering and death. There is, therefore, no need for us to pay for our sins if we seek forgiveness.

There is only one way to pay the wages for sin, and that would mean eternal death!}}

It’s like throwing a brick deliberately though a man’s big plate glass window, so the reasoning goes. He is furious with you because of it and would bring the full force of the law down on you. However, if you go and say you’re sorry the man will forgive you and the two of you will be reconcilled. You won’t have to pay for the window because his son has already paid for the it. In fact, he’s already paid for every act of vandelism that has or ever will be committed.

{{ Save for the fact that it isn’t the breaking of the glass that one is guilty of, it is the very nature of the person that has the propencity to break the glass, that is the problem! One is not a sinner because of what they do, but of what they are by birth! Thus the new birth.}}

What was the point of Christ’s suffering a death if we have to pay the price of our sins ourselves? So there is not, and can not be, any suffering for those who have had their sins forgiven.

{{{ Oh contrare, dear one, Since the new birth all sorts of suffering takes place. But not for the sake of sin, but disobediance to the new way of a righteous life. Thus the renewing of the spirit of the mind! Unto the Righteousness of Christ. For even Jesus, born without sin, still had the propensity to sin, but chose to follow righteousness. As the scripture states, whomsoever one obeys this is his master, either the flesh, or the spirit.")))

Agree?

Bar

 

[ChristianBrothe]

You are miss understand why Christ suffered and died, It wasn’t to keep us from having to suffer…it was to keep us from having to suffer eternally. Since Adam sinned the gates of heaven were closed to all humans. Mean anyone who sinned (meaning everyone) could not get into heaven. Jesus suffered died and was buried so the gates could be opened again. Not so that we didn’t have to pay for our sins, but so that even though we have sinned we are still ABLE to get to heaven. Because previously you were not allowed in AT ALL. Unless you had no sin on your soul. Or God brought you there himself. Now we are allowed in even though we have sinned, BUT you still need to pay for the sins you commit. just like the window example above.

 

[Barelohim]

You are miss understand why Christ suffered and died, It wasn’t to keep us from having to suffer…it was to keep us from having to suffer eternally. Since Adam sinned the gates of heaven were closed to all humans. Mean anyone who sinned (meaning everyone) could not get into heaven. Jesus suffered died and was buried so the gates could be opened again. Not so that we didn’t have to pay for our sins, but so that even though we have sinned we are still ABLE to get to heaven. Because previously you were not allowed in AT ALL. Unless you had no sin on your soul. Or God brought you there himself. Now we are allowed in even though we have sinned, BUT you still need to pay for the sins you commit. just like the window example above.

The Sinner, that sinned, died with Christ, was buried with Christ, and arose with Christ.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?
3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become [1] united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;*n1
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
7 for he that hath died is [1] justified from sin.*n2
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;
9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.
10 For [1] the death that he died, he died unto sin [2] once: but [1] the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.*n3
11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
13 neither present your members unto sin as [1] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.*n4
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as [1] servants unto obedience, his [1] servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?*n5
17 But thanks be to God, [1] that, whereas ye were [2] servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that [3] form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered;*n6
18 and being made free from sin, ye became [1] servants of righteousness.*n7
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification.
20 For when ye were [1] servants of sin, ye were free in regard of righteousness.*n8
21 What fruit then had ye at that time in the things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Bar

 

[DavidWJackson]

Maybe, God thought it good not to soundly explain purgatory in scripture, so us humans wouldn’t aim our lives for purgatory instead of Heaven, thinking, we can have our cake and eat it too. After all, we are a stubborn, stiff neck, rebillious lot. Are we not?

 

[Barelohim]

Maybe, God thought it good not to soundly explain purgatory in scripture, so us humans wouldn’t aim our lives for purgatory instead of Heaven, thinking, we can have our cake and eat it too. After all, we are a stubborn, stiff neck, rebillious lot. Are we not?

Mr Jackson, I bring your attention to this passage of scripture… John 15

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

One can notice that both these branches spoken of are * IN THE VINE *! Speaking of believers in Christ. As Romans 11: speaks. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

So some of the branches grafted into Him/Vine produced the fruit of the VINE/(christlikeness), but some of the other branches were not, and in danger of being cut off and thrown in the fire, to be burnt up.

Now these branches were grafted into the VIne by ONE who knows how to do a proper graft. So the problem isn’t with the graft. The Life of the VIne was, and is available to all branches grafted into HIM…

So the question, why are some branches producing the fruit, and others are not?

Worth some investigation, wouldn’t you say?

How many have been Christians for many, many years, and yet have no fruit of the likeness of Christ in manifestation?

Worth further investigation?

2 Peter 1: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:** that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,** having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11** For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.**

Worth a consideration?

Bar

 

[in_servitude]

In reference to the OP’s question - what does scripture say?

Here’s my opinion:

The 1st exodus is a physical model that explains something spiritual.

1. Jews sacrifice an unblemished lamb.
2. Jews are saved (physically) by eating the lamb in faith.
3. Jews head toward the promised land.
4. On their way, the brokenness of the Jews causes them to be delayed on their journey toward the promised land. They wander in the desert for 40 years (i.e. one generation).
5. Thus, before they can proceed into the promised land, all of those people that sinned were no longer with them.
6. The Jews enter the promised land purified.

The 2nd exodus is a spiritual equivalent to what Christ did for us in creating a new type of passover (the Eucharist/the Mass). Just as we are saved from an (eternal) death with the eating of the Lamb (Eucharist). And, we will pass through our own desert as our souls are purified.

Getting back to the question: Purgatory, in my opinion, is taught in Exodus. But, perhaps that is putting into the 1st exodus what is not really there. However, as time goes on, it is making more and more sense to me.

 

[Barelohim]

that is quite a stretch * in-servitude*, and reading into that which isn’t there. Or as the scripture states * adding to the Word *, which is really a no no with a consequence.\

In-servitude. Are the children of God, to be servants/slaves, or in fellowship with their father. He has millions of angels that serve Him. He wants fellowship with His children, not slaves, or servants. Is not that clear from scritpure?\

B.

 

[in_servitude]

that is quite a stretch * in-servitude*, and reading into that which isn’t there. Or as the scripture states * adding to the Word *, which is really a no no with a consequence.\

Care to add more to your thoughts other than a simple statement of disagreement?

In-servitude. Are the children of God, to be servants/slaves, or in fellowship with their father. He has millions of angels that serve Him. He wants fellowship with His children, not slaves, or servants. Is not that clear from scritpure?\

B.

Excuse me, but if you want to take issue with my handle - start a thread on the subject. No need to hijack a thread…

 

[Erich]

And can you tell me what the CCC says.

The section on purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is only three paragraphs long (CCC 1030-1032). In essence, there are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists: (1) that there is a purification after death, (2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and (3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living.

And how/why does the Catholic Church teach this?

can anyone please quote the part of scripture that supports the theological idea of Purgatory.

Purgatory is what’s between “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23) and “nothing unclean shall ever enter Heaven” (Revelation 21:27).

Also look at 1 Cor. 3:12-17. From scripturecatholic.com/purgatory_qa.html

In these passages, Paul is talking about how God judges our works after death by using a string of metaphors (we are God’s building; works are good and bad materials, etc.). Paul says that if a person builds with good materials, he will receive a reward (verse 14). If he builds with a mixture of good and bad materials, his work is burned up, but he is still saved (verse 15). If he only builds with bad materials, he has destroyed the temple, and God will destroy him (verse 17).

                This passage demonstrates several things.  First, it  demonstrates that our works serve as a basis for determining our  salvation.  This is contrary to the erroneous Protestant belief that,  once we accept Jesus by faith alone, we are saved.  Protestants have no  good explanation for why Paul is teaching the Corinthians that our works  bear upon our salvation.  Second, the verse demonstrates that, if a  person does both good and bad works, his bad works are punished, *but he is still saved*.   The Greek phrase for "suffer loss" (zemiothesetai) means "to be  punished."  This means the man undergoes an expiation of temporal  punishment for his bad works (sins) but is still saved.  The phrase “but  only” or “yet so” (in Greek, houtos) means "in the same manner." This  means that the man must pass through the fire in the same way that his  bad works passed through the fire, in order to expiate himself of the  things that led him to produce the bad works in the first place.

                 This demonstrates that there is punishment after death, followed  by salvation. The Church calls this purification “Purgatory.” If  accepting Jesus as Savior by faith alone during one's life were true,  there would be no punishment after death for those who are saved. Your  sins would already be washed away. This passage proves that there is  punishment and forgiveness after death, followed by salvation.

In particular, look at verse 15: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” Where is this burning up to take place? There is no suffering in Heaven, so not there… and there is no salvation for those in Hell, so not there either. Only the doctrine of purgatory satisfactorily explains this passage.

Finally, look at Matthew 12:32, where Jesus speaks of a sin which will neither be forgiven in this age nor the age to come, implying that some sins (venial ones of which we have not repented before death) will be forgiven when we repent the first moment of our afterlife.

 

[zz912]

Some other points:

1. Revelation details how Death and Hades will be thrown into hell at the Second Coming of Jesus. (So hades and death are NOT hell. There must be a place(s) other than Heaven/earth/hell.)
2. St. Peter tells us that Jesus went to preach to the spirits in “prison” while He was dead on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.
3. Jesus teaches us about Abraham’s Bosom, which was the resting place of those who were awaiting for the Resurrection to open Heaven.

Scripture is pretty clear that there is at least ONE other place besides Heaven, earth, and hell. The Church calls this “place” (it is not a physical location) Purgatory, from the word purgation, i.e. a purification by “fire” that St. Paul talks about.