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Petersmate
Guest
Best answer I have ever heard. Now I’d like to see non believers argue that one.
Protons have mass? I didn’t even know they were Catholic hehehehehehehe
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Protons have mass? I didn’t even know they were Catholic hehehehehehehe
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Petersmate
Guest
Where does he tell us?
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DavidWJackson
Guest
I really do not understand how this reply reflects on or counters what I have said.
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Barelohim
Guest
The place Christians go upon leaving the body, is called Paradise. There is then awaiting judgement seat of Christ, for rewards or not! For no one has entered heaven save HE who came from heaven. John 3: 12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, [1] who is in heaven.*n4
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IronMIke
Guest
There is nothing explicit in scripture. Words such as prison or fire maybe an interpretation by some or a concept. But purgatory is not biblically based but in tradition.
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Pitcharan
Guest
Church inherited the belief from Judaism wherein, purgatory (sheol) and hell (gehenna) are already defined. For a deeper understanding you should know that ‘sin’ and ‘vice’ are not the same. The cause of sin is our defilement called ‘vice’. Forgiveness applies for the sin committed and it does not stop the person from sinning again; to stop sinning, the cause has to be eradicated, i.e., vice needs to be purged. This happens to some extent through earthly sufferings. Those who do not suffer enough on earth to shed all vice need to undergo further purification in purgatory.
It is better to atone for sin now and to cut away vices than to keep them for purgation in the hereafter. In truth, we deceive ourselves by our ill-advised love of the flesh. What will that fire feed upon but our sins? The more we spare ourselves now and the more we satisfy the flesh, the harder will the reckoning be and the more we keep for the burning. (Imitation of Christ by Thomas Kempis, Book I, chapter 24)
“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ‘For everyone will be salted with fire’.” (Mk 9:43, 49)
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Barelohim
Guest
The eradication took place when the sinners were placed on that cross at Calvary 2000+ years ago. We died with Him, were buried with Him, and arose new creations in Christ. As Paul wrote. " It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me!"
Jesus just didn’t die to cover our sin, but to eradicate the cause of sinning by putting the * old man* to death!
Romans 6: 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become [1] united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;*n1
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
Bar
7 for he that hath died is [1] justified from sin.*n2
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Pitcharan
Guest
The old man, alas, yet lives within me. He has not yet been entirely crucified; he is not yet entirely dead. He still lusts strongly against the spirit, and he will not leave the kingdom of my soul in peace. Show forth I beg, Your wonderful works and let Your right hand be glorified, because for me there is no other hope or refuge except in You, O Lord, my God. (Imitation of Christ by Thomas Kempis, Book III, chapter 34)
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Barelohim
Guest
Beloved of Christ.
Either the old man died with Christ, or Christ is a liar. This has to be settled, or you will have continued problems with sin. And the devil just loves to do that to Christians.
Years ago I killed a garden snake with a rock, by crushing its’ head. But the funny thing was, its tail kept wiggling. I was just a kid and this amazed me, but my mom said, To check it the next morning, and sure enough no more wiggling.
Thing is I had crushed its head, but because of the wigglling tail, I thought it was still alive. Just like what you are deallinig with… IF you keep looking at the wiggling tail, and not focusing on the crushed head, you will be continually deceived by the Liar of lies, and remain bound, when Christ has truly set you free.
For you shall know the Truth, and the truth shall set you free. You either believe the word of God, and hold it above what you see and feel. Or you remain carnal. Jesus said, " Only Believe. The word says you died, but the problem remains with the unrewed mind. And this is where the liar likes to play…
As Jesus said to the Centurian, " … Be it done unto you, as you have believed!"
bar
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Pitcharan
Guest
Dear brother Bar,
I admire you faith and love and have no doubts in that regard. But I differ with your understanding that our salvation is ‘already completed’ and believe that it is ‘ongoing’.
Christ has shown us all the way for us to follow; it includes crucifying carnal nature (vice) and acquiring divine nature (virtue). It is an ongoing process and not an one-time event.
God bless
Pitcharan
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zz912
Guest
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. 19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
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Chris_Etzel
Guest
In Romans 6, Paul is addressing a theological question: Do we sin to cause Grace to abound ? The answer is NO because sin leads to death. Christ’s Passion “leads” us to sanctification. His Passion happened that we “might” live anew with him. None of this says there is no purging of sins.
Paul wrote to the Corinthians “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us…If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness” (1 Corinthians 10) and in Revelation 21 “nothing unclean will enter heaven”. If we die with unconfessed sin how can we be forgiven or even enter heaven since we are unclean ?!
Christ says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will “not be forgiven in this world or in the next” (Matthew 12) Job gave offerings for his dead sons that they might be justified in God’s eyes. Christ went and preached to the souls in ‘prison’ (1 Peter 3:19). Paul states that our works will be tested by fire.
The overwhelming evidence in Scripture alone hints at a state of afterlife that is not heaven or hell.
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zz912
Guest
Paradise has also been theorized to be Abraham’s Bosom. And you don’t have a Scripture reference to determine that all Christians will go directly to Paradise, without going to Purgatory. That is your personal opinion injected.
Second, you are incorrectly understanding St. John. The key word you are missing is “ascended”. Ascension is to rise under your own power. None of us has or will ascend into Heaven. We will be assumed into Heaven. Assumption means to be lifted up by someone else’s (God’s) power.
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zz912
Guest
And yet St Paul says that he still does those things (sin) that he hates. And the Bible says that a righteous man falls repeatedly. And as taught in the Parable of the Vine, we can always sin and reject God even after becoming a true Christian, and be tossed into hell.
Finding isolated verses from the Bible to create a theology is dangerous.
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Barelohim
Guest
I perfer to use the word * maturing *. For it is true, growing from a spirtual baby to a fully mature Christian takes time, and experience. But. the ole man and the power of the flesh has been taken care of by Christ. But be ye renewed in the spirit of ones mind.
One will always travel in the direction of their attention. As my attention is on the word of God, and the confession of my mouth is in agreement with the word, my words act as seed. And if one plants corn today, one day they will be walking in it.
1 John 5:14 And this is the boldness which we have toward him, that, if we ask anything according to his will, he heareth us:
15 and if we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of him.
He is coming for a Bride Pitcharan, one without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing. And it is the work of the Holy Spirit, working with us, to bring us into that likeness. Not in the sweet bye and bye, But in the here and now.
Rev. 19: 7 Let us rejoice and be exceeding glad, and let us give the glory unto him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Another example/picture of what this is saying is in the book of …
Esther chapter 2: 8 So it came to pass, when the king’s commandment and his decree was heard, and when many maidens were gathered together unto Shushan the palace, to the custody of Hegai, that Esther was taken into the king’s house, to the custody of Hegai, keeper of the women.
9 And the maiden pleased him, and she obtained kindness of him; and he speedily gave her her things for purification, with her portions, and the seven maidens who were meet to be given her out of the king’s house: and he removed her and her maidens to the best place of the house of the women.
10 Esther had not made known her people nor her kindred; for Mordecai had charged her that she should not make it known.
11 And Mordecai walked every day before the court of the women’s house, to know how Esther did, and what would become of her.
12 Now when the turn of every maiden was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that it had been done to her according to the law for the women twelve months (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit , six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odors and with the things for the purifying of the women),
13 then in this wise came the maiden unto the king: whatsoever she desired was given her to go with her out of the house of the women unto the king’s house.
14 In the evening she went, and on the morrow she returned into the second house of the women, to the custody of Shaashgaz, the king’s chamberlain, who kept the concubines: she came in unto the king no more, except the king delighted in her, and she were called by name.
15 Now when the turn of Esther, the daughter of Abihail the uncle of Mordecai, who had taken her for his daughter, was come to go in unto the king, she required nothing but what Hegai the king’s chamberlain, the keeper of the women, appointed. And Esther obtained favor in the sight of all them that looked upon her.
16 So Esther was taken unto king Ahasuerus into his house royal in the tenth month, which is the month Tebeth, in the seventh year of his reign…
Esther, is the Bride/Christian. in preparation for the Bridegroom Jesus/King. And Esther the betrothed is under the care for her preparation by Hegai, the Kings Eunuch/ the Holy spirit.
Also note that she is given, verse 12… 12 months for the regulation of their beautification. Six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with the fragrant spices, and cosmetics for women. Oil of myrrh speaks of the spices used on the dead. And fragrant spices and cosmetics is the fragrance of Christ.
Bar
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Pitcharan
Guest
I guess, with some more maturing our thoughts would converge and we would together follow the Shepherd as one flock.
God bless you Bar
Pitcharan
P.S. I have preserved this post of yours
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Barelohim
Guest
Galatians 2:Galatians 2: 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Why would one need purging if confession takes care of the unrighteous act?
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the rejection of Christs atonement. Without which there is no forgiveness.
And Job spoke about and what he knew not. Read the last chapter
And Jesus took captive all those held in the captivity of death. Ephesians 4:8/9
God doesn’t look at us, but at Christ who is our life. Unconfessed sin does not make us unclean, or not enter heaven. We may lose our rewards at His judgement seat. You don’t think that God understands the weakness of our flesh? He does, that is why He gave us Christ. " For as He is in heaven, so also are we in this earth." God judges the heart dear friend. And He said He has given us a NEW heart… HIS.
And rightly so that those things that have been built on the foundation of faith in Christ should be tested as though by fire. In over 40 years of ministry, one thing I learned. One who has the truth has nothing to fear from any lie presented. But those who think they have the truth, when confronted with truth, are intimidated, and dance, dance,dance…
Yes not heaven or hell. Paradise for the believer, and a place of death for those who reject. Where did Jesus go to minister to those in prison? And what was the prison of all men from Adam unto Christ, but death. For the wages of sin is…death. Save for Enoch, and Elijah.
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zz912
Guest
There is simply no Biblical basis for such an assertion. And there is PLENTY of Biblical basis for the opposite.
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Chris_Etzel
Guest
because if you didn’t confess it, you died with an unrighteous act. Goes back to Revelation 21 and ties in to Matthew 12 where Christ says “not be forgiven in this world or the next” which I should have been more clear about in my earlier post. Christ indicates forgiveness available in the next world. How that forgiveness is given I suppose is for God to determine, but the Church has stood by the idea of purgatory and again, the biblical evidence suggests a purification following death.
My apologies. I was hasty in my first reply and didn’t elaborate. I was not referring to the blasphemy itself or in any way inferring there was anything blasphemous. I was referencing Christ’s statement that there was forgiveness in this world and the next, supporting the idea of Purgatory.
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aragonjohn1
Guest
It is eschatology not theology
A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory
“Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd…He taught me…faithful writings…These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius.” Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190). “Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease…But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day … remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy’s navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, … I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.” The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202). “Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202). - - philvaz.com/apologetics/apolog.htm
Shalom
God bless
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