Purgatory--why would there be a 'need' for Hell?

[Bishopite]

In studying the concept of purgatory, which I feel to be a beautiful ‘second chance’ that God gives to those of us who need to be ‘cleaned up’ before entering Heaven, I am a bit perplexed with certain aspects of it.

Purgatory is NOT a second chance, it is reserved for the just, the saved who die with sanctifying grace upon their soul who are going to heaven, but are not yet completely sanctified.

1. Is purgatory to cleanse souls from venial sins, mortal sins, both?

Venial sins one hasn’t competely repented from. If one dies in mortal sin then hell awaits them.

1. Does every soul go through purgatory, or do some go straight to Hell, past the Judgement Seat?

Everyone goes through the judgement seat Hebrews 9:27. Those who die in martyrdom for being a follower of Christ Jesus go straight to heaven without the need to be “purged” of their sin, being they gave all that they could (their life) for Christ.

1. If our ancestors died say 20 years ago, not in perfect states of grace…are they still in purgatory?

We don’t actually know what happens in eternity because it is outside of time; the ancestors may be in purgatory or they may be in heaven in the beatific vision.

Some things with this are still a little fuzzy. Can u help clarify? Thanks.

Again, purgatory is NOT a second chance. At ones death they are either a follower of Jesus Christ or they are not. If they are a follower of Jesus and die with some attachment to a particular sin (even the those little venial ones hidden in our soul); that they didn’t completely relinquish and turn over to God through faith and repentance means that they have to have that sin purged from them because God is in heaven and heaven is without Sin completely Revelation 21:27 "no unclean thing shall enter it [heaven]).
Also we know that we have to be holy in the sight of God to see Him Heb 12:14 “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”
Therefore we need to be pure and clean to be with God.

Paul speaks of this purgation in 1 Cor 3:14-15
"If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. "

In these verses we see the Apostle Paul showing that the person “will be saved” so, we know that person is a follower of Jesus Chirst. However, that person will be saved…“but suffer lose…but only as though fire”
In 'as through fire" Paul means through being purged of ones sins.
Purgatory is the fire of love from a Holy God who loves us so much that He burns away the sin we so desperately want to shed in order to see Him and Scripture tells us that God chanstens those whom He loves…
Hebrews 12:5-6
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

 

[palmas85]

In studying the concept of purgatory, which I feel to be a beautiful ‘second chance’ that God gives to those of us who need to be ‘cleaned up’ before entering Heaven, I am a bit perplexed with certain aspects of it.

1. Is purgatory to cleanse souls from venial sins, mortal sins, both?
2. Does every soul go through purgatory, or do some go straight to Hell, past the Judgement Seat?
3. If our ancestors died say 20 years ago, not in perfect states of grace…are they still in purgatory?

Some things with this are still a little fuzzy. Can u help clarify? Thanks.

Purgatory is to purify those souls that died in a state of grace that still had to do penance in payment for their sins. It was explained to me this way way back then by my second or third grade teacher, Sister Rebeca

Your mother and father love you and they will always love you and forgive you for what you do wrong. Like this, your mom tells you not to play ball in the living room. But you play ball and break your moms favorite vase. She forgives you, she still loves you, BUT you don’t get your allowance for a month so you can pay for what you did/ That is what purgatory is like. Even though your sins were forgiven youstill jave to pay a price for what you did so that your soul will be clean.

There is no way of telling how many souls go to Purgatory, but I would imagine the number is quite high.

As to how long souls are in Purgatory, we don’t know that either.
Remember, Heaven Hell and Purgatory exist outside of time as we know it as does God.

As far as sins go, if you die with one unforgiven or unconfessed mortal sin you go to Hell, not Purgatory.

At least that is how it was explained to me.

 

[jmcrae]

There is no way of telling how many souls go to Purgatory, but I would imagine the number is quite high.

Even Blessed Teresa of Calcutta thought she was going to Purgatory.

Is purgatory to cleanse souls from venial sins, mortal sins, both?

Neither. Purgatory is for the healing of the wounds to our souls that were caused by our sins. In order to make it to Purgatory, all of our sins - both venial and mortal - must have been repented of and forgiven while we were still alive.

Venial sins are easier to repent of than mortal sins, but do not make the mistake of not repenting of your venial sins, thinking that you can repent of them in Purgatory - no. If you have a bad habit of walking off with people’s pens (just for example), this is a venial sin, but you must break this habit before you die, or else you will go to Hell.

You don’t have to go to Confession to repent of it, but that is the only difference between venial and mortal sins - mortal sins must be repented of in the Confessional, while venial sins can be repented of either in the Confessional, or anywhere else - but if you die never having repented of your venial sins, you would still go to Hell.

Rather, what happens in Purgatory is that the wounds to our souls that occur when we sin are cleansed and healed. Like any healing process, it can be very painful.

Just as it is better not to fall down the stairs and hit your head in the first place, so too, it is better not to commit any sin in the first place, rather than sustain these wounds to our souls which must then be healed through various painful operations in Purgatory.

 

[whatevergirl]

Purgatory is NOT a second chance, it is reserved for the just, the saved who die with sanctifying grace upon their soul who are going to heaven, but are not yet completely sanctified.

Venial sins one hasn’t competely repented from. If one dies in mortal sin then hell awaits them.

Everyone goes through the judgement seat Hebrews 9:27. Those who die in martyrdom for being a follower of Christ Jesus go straight to heaven without the need to be “purged” of their sin, being they gave all that they could (their life) for Christ.

We don’t actually know what happens in eternity because it is outside of time; the ancestors may be in purgatory or they may be in heaven in the beatific vision.

Again, purgatory is NOT a second chance. At ones death they are either a follower of Jesus Christ or they are not. If they are a follower of Jesus and die with some attachment to a particular sin (even the those little venial ones hidden in our soul); that they didn’t completely relinquish and turn over to God through faith and repentance means that they have to have that sin purged from them because God is in heaven and heaven is without Sin completely Revelation 21:27 "no unclean thing shall enter it [heaven]).
Also we know that we have to be holy in the sight of God to see Him Heb 12:14 “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”
Therefore we need to be pure and clean to be with God.

Paul speaks of this purgation in 1 Cor 3:14-15
"If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. "

In these verses we see the Apostle Paul showing that the person “will be saved” so, we know that person is a follower of Jesus Chirst. However, that person will be saved…“but suffer lose…but only as though fire”
In 'as through fire" Paul means through being purged of ones sins.
Purgatory is the fire of love from a Holy God who loves us so much that He burns away the sin we so desperately want to shed in order to see Him and Scripture tells us that God chanstens those whom He loves…
Hebrews 12:5-6
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

if everyone does not go through purgatory…why can’t it be seen as a second chance?

 

[whatevergirl]

Even Blessed Teresa of Calcutta thought she was going to Purgatory.

Neither. Purgatory is for the healing of the wounds to our souls that were caused by our sins. In order to make it to Purgatory, all of our sins - both venial and mortal - must have been repented of and forgiven while we were still alive.

Venial sins are easier to repent of than mortal sins, but do not make the mistake of not repenting of your venial sins, thinking that you can repent of them in Purgatory - no. If you have a bad habit of walking off with people’s pens (just for example), this is a venial sin, but you must break this habit before you die, or else you will go to Hell.

You don’t have to go to Confession to repent of it, but that is the only difference between venial and mortal sins - mortal sins must be repented of in the Confessional, while venial sins can be repented of either in the Confessional, or anywhere else - but if you die never having repented of your venial sins, you would still go to Hell.

Rather, what happens in Purgatory is that the wounds to our souls that occur when we sin are cleansed and healed. Like any healing process, it can be very painful.

Just as it is better not to fall down the stairs and hit your head in the first place, so too, it is better not to commit any sin in the first place, rather than sustain these wounds to our souls which must then be healed through various painful operations in Purgatory.

thank you for clarifying this–i guess i need to read up on the CCC a bit more when it comes to ‘the rapture.’

 

[Bishopite]

if everyone does not go through purgatory…why can’t it be seen as a second chance?

Because Heb 9:27 tells us that it is appointed once to die and then comes the judgement. At that judgement your soul is fixed upon heaven or hell and those who go through purgatory are on their way to heaven after purification. Those who go straight to heaven have been completely purified (sanctified) here on earth like those who have died martyrdom deaths for Christs sake. A second chance would be saying God allows the person after death to choose but sacred scripture nor sacred Tradition have ever taught this false idea.

 

[whatevergirl]

Because Heb 9:27 tells us that it is appointed once to die and then comes the judgement. At that judgement your soul is fixed upon heaven or hell and those who go through purgatory are on their way to heaven after purification. Those who go straight to heaven have been completely purified (sanctified) here on earth like those who have died martyrdom deaths for Christs sake. A second chance would be saying God allows the person after death to choose but sacred scripture nor sacred Tradition have ever taught this false idea.

can you elaborate on being sanctified here on earth? I go to Confession regularly, and try to lead a repentant life…but can any of ever be repentant enough? Isn’t Christ’s death on the cross, ultimately what gives us the opportunity to go to Heaven, and therefore, if we are repentant…is this seen as ‘enough’ in God’s eyes? I guess I’m a little fuzzy on this point.

 

[Fidelis]

St. Paul lists some here:

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, 20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, 21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that **they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. **

Not to mention:

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. (Romans 1:26-32)

 

[jmcrae]

can you elaborate on being sanctified here on earth? I go to Confession regularly, and try to lead a repentant life…but can any of ever be repentant enough? Isn’t Christ’s death on the cross, ultimately what gives us the opportunity to go to Heaven, and therefore, if we are repentant…is this seen as ‘enough’ in God’s eyes? I guess I’m a little fuzzy on this point.

Christ’s death on the Cross gives us everything we have, including the ability to be sanctified here on earth, and the ability to go to Purgatory if we have not been completely sanctified here on earth, although all of our sins have been forgiven.

On our own, it would not even occur to us to repent, let alone be repentant enough - it is God’s grace through the merits of Christ on the Cross that even gives us that ability. By nature, we are inclined to excuse ourselves and blame others for our own shortcomings rather than own up to our behaviour and be sorry for our mistakes. From the time of the Fall itself, we have been blaming each other rather than taking ownership of our own sins.

Recognizing that we have made a mistake is the first step to full repentance. The practice of going to Confession frequently helps us to develop this skill, since of course in the Confessional, we are not allowed to blame others for our sins - we have to say, “I did this,” rather than “So and so made me do this.” Once we learn the habit of taking personal responsibility, the steps that follow aren’t all that difficult - the resolution to avoid that particular sin in the future, and the general intention not to sin any more come quite naturally, once we have taken that step, and the more we practice taking personal responsibility and avoiding the near occasion of sin, the more perfect we become, and the more detached from our sins we become.

 

[whatevergirl]

Christ’s death on the Cross gives us everything we have, including the ability to be sanctified here on earth, and the ability to go to Purgatory if we have not been completely sanctified here on earth, although all of our sins have been forgiven.

On our own, it would not even occur to us to repent, let alone be repentant enough - it is God’s grace through the merits of Christ on the Cross that even gives us that ability. By nature, we are inclined to excuse ourselves and blame others for our own shortcomings rather than own up to our behaviour and be sorry for our mistakes. From the time of the Fall itself, we have been blaming each other rather than taking ownership of our own sins.

Recognizing that we have made a mistake is the first step to full repentance. The practice of going to Confession frequently helps us to develop this skill, since of course in the Confessional, we are not allowed to blame others for our sins - we have to say, “I did this,” rather than “So and so made me do this.” Once we learn the habit of taking personal responsibility, the steps that follow aren’t all that difficult - the resolution to avoid that particular sin in the future, and the general intention not to sin any more come quite naturally, once we have taken that step, and the more we practice taking personal responsibility and avoiding the near occasion of sin, the more perfect we become, and the more detached from our sins we become.

Thank you for this great (and clear) explanation…I appreciate it!!! I agree that we must own up to our own wrong doings…I believe I have done this, after Confession–I have repented…and as you explain…only by the grace of God can it all be possible. So, let’s say…one truly believes that he/she is repentant…one has confessed all that he/she has on his/her soul…(unless I have forgotten something)…can one be spared purgatory on this basis?

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you for this great (and clear) explanation…I appreciate it!!! I agree that we must own up to our own wrong doings…I believe I have done this, after Confession–I have repented…and as you explain…only by the grace of God can it all be possible. So, let’s say…one truly believes that he/she is repentant…one has confessed all that he/she has on his/her soul…(unless I have forgotten something)…can one be spared purgatory on this basis?

Yes. If a person were able to maintain this level of grace, he or she would be brought directly into Heaven at the moment of death, without the need of Purgatory.

This, of course, is what all of us ought to be striving to achieve.

 

[childofmary1143]

Purgatory, how I understand it, is like restitution.

Say I play with a baseball in my backyard. I hit the ball and it smashes a window in my neighbours house (sinful action). I go over and apologise (confession) and they forgive me (forgiveness). But the window is still broken and justice demands that I pay for it (restitution).

Purgatory is restitution for confessed sins that sufficient atonement hasn’t been made in this life.

A plenary indulgence can remit that and get a soul into heaven directly.

Hope this helps.

 

[whatevergirl]

Purgatory, how I understand it, is like restitution.

Say I play with a baseball in my backyard. I hit the ball and it smashes a window in my neighbours house (sinful action). I go over and apologise (confession) and they forgive me (forgiveness). But the window is still broken and justice demands that I pay for it (restitution).

Purgatory is restitution for confessed sins that sufficient atonement hasn’t been made in this life.

A plenary indulgence can remit that and get a soul into heaven directly.

Hope this helps.

how can one receive a plenary indulgence? also…if the priest gives you a penance–and you attone by repenting in the way he prescribes say…then, why would additional punishment be in order?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

can one be spared purgatory on this basis?

Remember what Jesus said, "When you have done all that is asked of you, say, <We are worthless servants; we have done only what we are supposed to do.>

Remember that while repenting is key to being forgiven, one still has to take the responsibility of making things ‘right’. By Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross we are all forgiven, but we cannot just sin, be sorry, and think, “That’s it.” Remember, the priest gives us a penance, and that is good, but it is only a ‘start’ quite often. How many times I myself have gone to confess the same sin, been sincerely sorry, said my penance, even tried to ‘do’ some reparation–yet still found myself guilty of the same sin over and over. And that’s when I am TRYING to do just what is asked of me–not even trying to go further for love of God. I’ve also been guilty of sinning, confessing, being pretty sorry (but not perfectly sorry), rushing the prayers, having the good intention of trying to make reparations but quickly being distracted so that even the bare minimum is, at best, done in a distracted, rote-like, careless way.

Someone wiser than I once said that we can spend our Purgatory before death, or after death. IOW, we have to go beyond being sorry and actively try to repair the sins we have made. Either we do it by prayer, good deeds, and penance here on earth–and lots more of it than we think is ‘adequate’–and thus we ‘might’ not have to spend Purgatory doing those same things after our death, if God wills it–or, as is more likely, we will be spending our Purgatory doing those things after death.

 

[childofmary1143]

how can one receive a plenary indulgence? also…if the priest gives you a penance–and you attone by repenting in the way he prescribes say…then, why would additional punishment be in order?

A Plenary indulgence can be granted by confession (within a 2 week time period, Mass, and special prayers for the Holy Father.

Actually there are many different prayers you can do but as for granting it, it is up to God.

I think the penance the Priest gives us is different. I think its given for full forgiveness of the sins.

( I think its high time I review my catechism again:blush: )

 

[jmcrae]

how can one receive a plenary indulgence?

By being without any attachment to sin at the time that one does an action that merits an indulgence, by being in the state of grace, having recently been to Confession, by receiving Holy Communion on the same day, and by reciting the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be for the intentions of the Pope.

also…if the priest gives you a penance–and you atone by repenting in the way he prescribes say…then, why would additional punishment be in order?

There are some wounds of the soul that take a long time to heal (especially if someone were away from the Church for a really long time), and the penances given by the priest might not be enough to completely heal them over.

 

[whatevergirl]

Remember what Jesus said, "When you have done all that is asked of you, say, <We are worthless servants; we have done only what we are supposed to do.>

Remember that while repenting is key to being forgiven, one still has to take the responsibility of making things ‘right’. By Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross we are all forgiven, but we cannot just sin, be sorry, and think, “That’s it.” Remember, the priest gives us a penance, and that is good, but it is only a ‘start’ quite often. How many times I myself have gone to confess the same sin, been sincerely sorry, said my penance, even tried to ‘do’ some reparation–yet still found myself guilty of the same sin over and over. And that’s when I am TRYING to do just what is asked of me–not even trying to go further for love of God. I’ve also been guilty of sinning, confessing, being pretty sorry (but not perfectly sorry), rushing the prayers, having the good intention of trying to make reparations but quickly being distracted so that even the bare minimum is, at best, done in a distracted, rote-like, careless way.

Someone wiser than I once said that we can spend our Purgatory before death, or after death. IOW, we have to go beyond being sorry and actively try to repair the sins we have made. Either we do it by prayer, good deeds, and penance here on earth–and lots more of it than we think is ‘adequate’–and thus we ‘might’ not have to spend Purgatory doing those same things after our death, if God wills it–or, as is more likely, we will be spending our Purgatory doing those things after death.

I’m glad I opened up this thread–your posts really are fascinating…and I have learned so much. I agree, that the penance at times, doesn’t seem to be enough. I think trying to stop from committing the same sins over and over–can be penance in and of itself. I truly pray for strength in stopping altogether, but a wise older priest told me a few months ago, that God expects us to keep getting back up and trying…and let His grace do the rest.

 

[childofmary1143]

I’m glad I opened up this thread–your posts really are fascinating…and I have learned so much. I agree, that the penance at times, doesn’t seem to be enough. I think trying to stop from committing the same sins over and over–can be penance in and of itself. I truly pray for strength in stopping altogether, but a wise older priest told me a few months ago, that God expects us to keep getting back up and trying…and let His grace do the rest.

Well its good that this thread was done as it helped to refresh my knowledge in Purgatory and Confession.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I truly pray for strength in stopping altogether, but a wise older priest told me a few months ago, that God expects us to keep getting back up and trying…and let His grace do the rest.

And he is a very wise priest indeed. I totally agree. Remember, even St. Paul was given a thorn in his flesh to torment him, and begged God to remove it, and was told, “My grace is sufficient for you, and My power is made perfect in weakness” (roughly paraphrased).

 

[thechrismyster]

Heaven is the major leagues. when its your turn to play, if you’ve been staying in shape… you go right in.
If you’ve been eating twinkies and beer but still want to play, the coach will let you, but you need to work those extra pounds off before you get to play. you did it to yourself in the offseason, so now you have to sweat to get in shape.

hell, thats sitting on your couch for eternity, non-alcoholic beer in hand saying to yourself “that could have been me”

thats my take on it.