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dancny
Guest
Does anyone have scriptural referances for purgatory? I am in a discussion and I am seeking some ammuniton. Thanks.
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thistle
Guest
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Thing
Guest
I suppose you could say Christs’ mission in part was to ‘make purgation of sins’, and the state of purgatory is simply a continuation of Christ in His mission to complete after death what was begun on earth.
Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Hebrews
God spoke of old by the prophets, but now by his Son, who is incomparably greater than the angels.
1 God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, 2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.
Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Hebrews
God spoke of old by the prophets, but now by his Son, who is incomparably greater than the angels.
1 God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, 2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.
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fellicia
Guest
Maccabees 12:36-46. the main part is ’ For if he were not expecting those who have fallen to rise again it would have been superflouus and foolish to pray for the dead.’ - Its foolish because if there was no Purgatory then what would be the point in praying for the dead.
A good way of explaining purgatory to people that don’t understand so just say they disbelieve is : We need to be clean and spotless and pure for The Lord and there for Purgatory is kind of like a really big showering place to get any extra dirt away. Although Jesus died for us this only allowed us to get to Heaven it does not take back any sins that we have commited no matter how sorry we may be for them.
1 Corinthians 3:11-16. This kind of backs up what I said above. Main part -Himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
We may be saved and well on our journey to Heaven but we have to go through fire (Purgatory) to get there.
Thats all I have got xxx
A good way of explaining purgatory to people that don’t understand so just say they disbelieve is : We need to be clean and spotless and pure for The Lord and there for Purgatory is kind of like a really big showering place to get any extra dirt away. Although Jesus died for us this only allowed us to get to Heaven it does not take back any sins that we have commited no matter how sorry we may be for them.
1 Corinthians 3:11-16. This kind of backs up what I said above. Main part -Himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
We may be saved and well on our journey to Heaven but we have to go through fire (Purgatory) to get there.
Thats all I have got xxx
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Even Christians still sin (1 Jn 1:9) which causes a stain to the soul, or the drive to repeat the sin (e.g. Jn 8:34).
But in heaven we will not be able to sin, nor could God permit any sinful tendencies in heaven (e.g. Mt 6:10, Ep 5:27, Hb 12:23, Rv 21:27).
So you know that a forgiven person (completed by the blood of the Lamb) who still has a tendency for sin will have these stains purged away before he can fully unite with God.
But in heaven we will not be able to sin, nor could God permit any sinful tendencies in heaven (e.g. Mt 6:10, Ep 5:27, Hb 12:23, Rv 21:27).
So you know that a forgiven person (completed by the blood of the Lamb) who still has a tendency for sin will have these stains purged away before he can fully unite with God.
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Sam_Catchem
Guest
Yes, in the book of Maccabees, "Pray for the dead so they may be loosed from their sins. Nothing impure can enter heaven. heaven is a pure state, and you must be purged of all sins not where restitution has not been made.
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charlye
Guest
Hi, Sam, can you help me out here? Scripture indeed tells us that nothing impure will ever enter heaven … “but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life” (Rev 21:27). When, in your opinion, or that of the RCC, is one’s name written in this Book? Before purgatorial incarceration … after sentence is served? Just curious.
Yes, in the book of Maccabees, "Pray for the dead so they may be loosed from their sins. Nothing impure can enter heaven. heaven is a pure state, and you must be purged of all sins not where restitution has not been made.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I can’t speak for Sam Catchem but regarding one’s name being “written in the Book” as a figure of election, I understand it as being “written” by God, who is outside of time, it is neither “before” or “after” anything from His standpoint. I recommend studying the two prevailing schools of thought on predestination known as Thomism and Molinism.
po18guy
Well-known member
Did you even bother to read the link for scriptural references? No. Please read it before you come back. Also, you have less scripture than Catholics do. You have Luther’s edited/censored bible.
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
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BlestOne
Guest
How about the book of Revelations? That is one that Protestants use quite a bit…
Rev 8:1-4
Rev 8:1-4
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charlye
Guest
You really must stop presuming … it reflects badly on you. I’ve read your “scriptural” references and just like other “proof” that has been offered by other RC’s on the existence of this mythical place/state of cleansing, it’s pure absurdity. To believe that we are sentenced to a place of further cleansing after we die is the height of blasphemy!
Jesus alone took upon Himself all our sins and any residual effects of such sins. Purgatory is akin to telling Jesus … “thanks, but I’ll take it from here”. There is nothing we can endure of ourselves that will make us worthy in the eyes of God. Jesus paid the final debt for us … God the Father is satisfied … case closed.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Which part of the Scripture offered above fails to demonstrate Purgatory. I know I provided a simple answer, and you will have to deny the meaning of some of those texts in order to deny a state of purgation at death. Could you address them specifically.
Just shouting out “absurdity” and “blasphemy” tells us little.
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charlye
Guest
Please read Rev 20:11-15. You will see that those whose names are written in the Book of Life had them recorded by God before their deaths. This Book is the one which contains the names of those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their Savior while they were alive on earth and, consequently, they will not be at the Great White Throne Judgment, as outlined in the aforementioned chapter/verses.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I already addressed the Book of Life question, and that passage says nothing affirmatively or negatively about whether the the souls of the elect will be perfected from every stain of sin (not to be confused with the forgiven sin itself) at death. I was asking you to respond to passages that have been provided to you. Perhaps posts 4 or 5.
po18guy
Well-known member
I can’t help your disbelief. I can only pray for you. I will lift you up before Christ in the Flesh tonight.
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charlye
Guest
With all due respect, and I really mean that, I do not need your prayers. I am secure in my position with Jesus, that He and He alone is my salvation, that I need nothing further for my entry into heaven and everlasting life with my Savior than the belief that Jesus did it all and paid the final debt demanded by our loving Father.
It is my prayer and hope that those who follow and encourage a belief in a further purification after death, that somehow Jesus failed in His mission for our eternal salvation, would yield to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and the truth that lies only within the pages of scripture.
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Vincent
Guest
I never tire of recommending** Pope Benedict**'s treatment of Purgatory. He explores judgment and grace in relation to *1 Corinthians *3:12-15, which is commonly offered as a description of Purgatory.
I’ve edited the relevant passage from Encyclical *Spe Salvi *here for readibility. The emphases are my own:
I’ve edited the relevant passage from Encyclical *Spe Salvi *here for readibility. The emphases are my own:
Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Savior. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgment. **Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. **
All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. **His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. **
In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion.
**At the moment of judgment we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love **over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. **The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. **
All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. **His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. **
In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion.
**At the moment of judgment we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love **over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. **The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. **
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MarcoPolo
Guest
This comment reveals the misunderstanding of what purgatory is. Unless you are without sin or the tendency to sin, you cannot stand in the heavenly presence of God. You must be spotless, without any blemish. Even any tendency of the soul to sin will be purged. 100% of souls who pass through purgatory are saved by the blood of Christ. There’s no “failure” on the part of Christ.
po18guy
Well-known member
You are far more saved than the Apostle Paul! This is stunning! He lived in fear and trembling before God all the days of his life, and told us to, as well. Man, that’s some faith and some church you have! Better than the Apostles taught or believed. Simply amazing!
Do you really believe this, or are you in spiritual darkness? I say the demon has lead you astray by the man-made doctrines that you believe. This delights the evil one. That is specifically why you need prayer.
Is it pride that refuses prayer? “Once saved always saved” is to test the Lord-daring Him to save you in spite of your continuing and on-going sins. But it appears that you are as pure as Christ, being immune to even temptation. However, nowhere did Christ say such a thing. Best of luck, since you will not accept a blessing.
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christcnection1
Guest
Beautiful quote… Even though our purgation may be a lot of pain, it’s something to look forward to. Through it our union with Christ will be perfected in love, holiness, truth. We are assured joy in His Kingdom for all eternity.
I encourage you to continue using this quote in any purgatory topic that pops up.
God bless
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