Purgatory

[Philthy]

But the RCC claims that if you were to die right after baptism, you could skip purgatory. And I am saying, if someone is scrupulous enough, they might want to time it perfectly.

You are correct! Some in the early church argued that perhaps it was better to be baptized on your deathbed. The obvious problem, however, is that we cannot be assured of timing it perfectly and it therefore makes more sense to be baptized immediately and then participate in the other Sacraments throughout one’s life.

 

[Philthy]

But let me ask you. Will an unbaptized baby go to purgatory, heaven, or some other place if he/she dies unexpectantly?

We dont know what happens to unbaptized babies that die before the age of reason - we are left trusting in the Mercy of God.
We do know, however, what happens to baptized babies that die before the age of reason - they go to Heaven.

 

[Philthy]

The Holy Orthodox Church also teaches that an individual would straight to heaven having died suddenly after baptism, but we do not have the doctrine of purgatory.

Really? I find that odd. What is it’s position on unintentional, unrepented venial sin of a baptized soul at the time of death? Is it forgiven? If so, how and when?
Lastly, does your church have a Catechism so I can investigate your claim for myself?

 

[Mickey]

You don’t or you would understand purgatory.

Okey dokie!

 

[Mickey]

You are correct! Some in the early church argued that perhaps it was better to be baptized on your deathbed. The obvious problem, however, is that we cannot be assured of timing it perfectly and it therefore makes more sense to be baptized immediately and then participate in the other Sacraments throughout one’s life.

Yes. That is what I thought.

 

[Mickey]

We dont know what happens to unbaptized babies that die before the age of reason - we are left trusting in the Mercy of God.

So limbo has been reversed?

 

[Mickey]

What is it’s position on unintentional, unrepented venial sin of a baptized soul at the time of death? Is it forgiven? If so, how and when?

Holy Orthodoxy does not know venial sin. Forgiveness is left to the mercy of God. God is all merciful. We do not try to explain the mysteries of God with scholastic explanations.

Philthy:
Lastly, does your church have a Catechism so I can investigate your claim for myself?
There are many teaching sources but I do not believe there is an “official” catechism that attempts to define these issues. Holy Orthodoxy did not adopt the Latin Church’s post schism doctrine of purgatory.

But then, you already know that, don’t you Phil?

 

[Godfollower]

So limbo has been reversed?

Limbo for unbaptized infants was never taught by the Church.

In theology there have been two understandings of “limbo” with respect to the afterlife. The first equates limbo with the “abode of the dead” from Scripture (a/k/a Hades or Sheol) – the place where the dead waited until Jesus’ Resurrection opened the gates of Heaven and made judgment possible. The Church does teach that such a place exists, though specifically calling it Limbo isn’t necessary (e.g., when we’re all gathered and Jesus is saying to people on His right and left where they are to go, obviously we’ll be standing somewhere that isn’t Heaven and isn’t Hell; call it limbo or “the abode of the dead” if you like).

The second “limbo” – the one to which you refer – was speculation by Catholic theologians struggling to answer the very question you’ve posed: what happens to unbaptized infants who die? The Church, however, has clearly stated that this “limbo” idea was incorrect. Unbaptized infants don’t go to Limbo; like every other human soul, they go either to Heaven or to Hell. We, of course, can’t know which one. But, trusting in a loving, ever-merciful God, we can guess.

 

[Mickey]

The Church, however, has clearly stated that this “limbo” idea was incorrect.

Thank you.

 

[Philthy]

So limbo has been reversed?

Reversed from what?

 

[Philthy]

Mickey:

Holy Orthodoxy does not know venial sin. Forgiveness is left to the mercy of God. God is all merciful.

I hope they do a little better at articulating the faith than this!
Do you not have confession to your priest? How is that forgiveness being “left to the mercy of God”?
God is “all merciful”. Boy that really clears things up! Are sinners held accountable or not? You do believe in Hell, no?
Why do those who are banished to Hell go there if God is “all merciful”?

We do not try to explain the mysteries of God with scholastic explanations.

Fair enough. What type of explanations do you use to try and explain them?

There are many teaching sources but I do not believe there is an “official” catechism that attempts to define these issues. Holy Orthodoxy did not adopt the Latin Church’s post schism doctrine of purgatory.

I guess I’ll just cut to the chase and ask: “What source you used to claim this for the Orthodox Church?” Is it your opinion of what your church teaches or did you confirm it with an official document.

But then, you already know that, don’t you Phil?

Actually no. I was aware that they did not choose to articulate what the Eucharist is in explicit terms like “transubstantiation”.
They also do not hold some of the beliefs regarding Mary that Catholics hold. I was otherwise under the impression that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches pretty much shared most dogma with the exception of Papal supremacy. I find it hard to believe that they have no opinion on what happens to unrepented sins at death. Does the Orthodox Church believe in “Once Saved Always Saved”? I find it hard to believe that they do and I know that it is frequently alleged that OSAS did not appear until after the Reformation. Yet if you believe that you can lose your salvation and have it restored through Sacraments, it becomes an immediate question of what happens if you die in a state of sin. But you claim they have nothing to say on the topic other than God is all merciful? I find that hard to believe - that is why I would prefer to examine one of the “many sources” for myself.

 

[PJM]

Mickey:
Holy Orthodoxy does not know venial sin. Forgiveness is left to the mercy of God. God is all merciful.

There are many teaching sources but I do not believe there is an “official” catechism that attempts to define these issues. Holy Orthodoxy did not adopt the Latin Church’s post schism doctrine of purgatory.

But then, you already know that, don’t you Phil?

Dear friend in Christ,

I wonder why? It biblical and it’s logical and coresponds perfectly with the Very Nature of God:thumbsup:

As for the classification of sin. What I posted above this applies also to this lack of reasonable understanding.

Are you suggesting Brother, that every offence completely severs ones persoanl relationship with the Almight God?

John 5: "16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. "

2 Tim 3: " 16 All scripture is inspired by God and * profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

You see Brother, when one denies one TRUTH, it often leads to denying other truths.

So do you get to chose what parts of the God’s inspired Bible you’ll accept and what parts you reject? Kinda too easy and convient to be the TRUTH:tsktsk: :whacky:

Love and prayers Brother,

 

[rinnie]

Thany-you Philthy, and PjM. Wonderful and to the point posts.

Also Mickey what does you church teach about unbaptised babies. Our Pope said we rely on Gods mercy. But the RCC insists on baptism as soon as possible.

But we as RCC know to give that child to Jesus. We want that soul to go to our Lord.

Again what does you church teach about unbaptised souls. Especially babies, since thats what your point was.

 

[Mickey]

I hope they do a little better at articulating the faith than this!

They do. I am an unknowlegeable and unworthy sinner.

Do you not have confession to your priest?

I confess my sins to God. The priest is a witness. Did you not know this?

How is that forgiveness being “left to the mercy of God”?

God has mercy on the repentant sinner.

God is “all merciful”. Boy that really clears things up!

I am glad that was helpful for you. Our God is all merciful.

Are sinners held accountable or not?

Yes. That is why we have the sacrament of Holy Confession. The Sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist, and Anointing of the sick are also unto the remission of sins.

You do believe in Hell

Yes.

Why do those who are banished to Hell go there if God is “all merciful”?

I am not qualified to make judgments about who may or may not go to hell–and neither are you. We know that God is all merciful.

What type of explanations do you use to try and explain them?

We do not have explanations for purgatory because there is no such doctrine in the Eastern Church. Many did not accept it when I was in the Byzantine Catholic Church either.

I guess I’ll just cut to the chase and ask: “What source you used to claim this for the Orthodox Church?” Is it your opinion of what your church teaches or did you confirm it with an official document.

All of Orthodoxy affirms that there is no such “doctrine” as purgatory. Do your homework and you will see.

I was aware that they did not choose to articulate what the Eucharist is in explicit terms like “transubstantiation”.

Correct. The Eucharist is a Mystery. We call it the “Real Presence”.

They also do not hold some of the beliefs regarding Mary that Catholics hold.
Correct. We do not refer to Our Lady as co-redemptrix.

Philthy:

I was otherwise under the impression that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches pretty much shared most dogma with the exception of Papal supremacy.

Papal supremacy
Papal infallibility
purgatory
Immaculate conception
understanding of original sin
Filioque

I find it hard to believe that they have no opinion on what happens to unrepented sins at death.

We do not know if someone has “unrepented sins”. We do not read people’s hearts. We leave them to the mercy of God. We pray for them.

Does the Orthodox Church believe in “Once Saved Always Saved”?

That is the invention of Jean Cauvin (John Calvin).

that is why I would prefer to examine one of the “many sources” for myself.

Go for it. Here is a head start for you. You may read the canons. Browse the seven great Ecumenical councils. Read some Church Fathers. Study Sacred Scripture. (the Orthodox study Bible is superb). Or visit your local Orthodox Church.

 

[Mickey]

There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. "

This refers to the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
See Mark 3:22-30 and Matt 12:31-32

2 Tim 3: " 16 All scripture is inspired by God and * profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Amen.

PJM:

You see Brother, when one denies one TRUTH, it often leads to denying other truths.

Yes brother. I agree completely. There is only ONE truth.

So do you get to chose what parts of the God’s inspired Bible you’ll accept and what parts you reject?

All of it is inspired my brother.

Love and prayers Brother

Likewise, brother.

 

[Mickey]

Reversed from what?

Growing up as a Latin Catholic, (I went to Catholic school), I was taught by the nuns and priests that if an unbaptized baby died, he/she could not go to heaven. They went to a place called limbo.

Apparently “limbo” has been cast into limbo.

 

[Mickey]

Also Mickey what does you church teach about unbaptised babies.

They are left to the mercy of God–because God is all merciful. We are glad that the Catholics have come in line to the Orthodox teaching.

 

[rinnie]

Growing up as a Latin Catholic, (I went to Catholic school), I was taught by the nuns and priests that if an unbaptized baby died, he/she could not go to heaven. They went to a place called limbo.

Apparently “limbo” has been cast into limbo.

Now to me Mickey this is a thin line. Because yes we are both taught that we rely on Gods Mercy. But we are also taught that we must be baptised in the Name of THe Father, Son, Holy Spirit. See what I mean. IMO none of us can answer that answer. Do you see what I mean. Because we are taught that we must be baptised. I agree that God is a merciful God, but we still are responsible to teach our kids right, and get them baptised. And if you think about it in school we were taught that limbo was like a holding place for souls. And we were also taught with God all things are possible. That is the hardest question I think there is in the Catholic faith.

Because think about it, what are we really asking, If you are not baptised are you getting into heaven. And in the end it all is left to Gods mercy. But on the other hand especially in this country most people do have access to information. Do you understand what I am saying. I guess what I am saying is it could lead up to, if God has mercy on a baby will it on someone that just didn’t feel it was important enough to get baptised at all. Do you understand what I am at?

 

[Philthy]

Hi Mickey - Thanks for your thoughtful replies

God has mercy on the repentant sinner…

 

[PJM]

=Philthy;4866380]Hi Mickey - Thanks for your thoughtful replies

It is exactly this type of vague terminology that the inquiring mind interacts with and seeks resolution. That is how doctrine develops. God is “all” merciful, but apparently it doesnt apply to “all” people, but only those who are “repentant”? Is that what you meant by “all” merciful - that God is selectively merciful??