Purgatory

[rinnie]

Hi PjM, And I agree with everything you say. But here is where I think it hits lets say the gray area.

A friend of mine was never baptized and never had her kids baptized. She never felt the need, so when I baptized mine, she said she believed that just because I did and she didn’t her kids had just as much a chance of getting into heaven as mine.

Okay now, I agree, it is not the babys fault. But here is the gray area at what age, or time frame does it become the right age now. See what I mean, She told me she did not have to get baptized, (well I said the bible does say different). I could see it was a no win subject so I just dropped it. But do you see what I mean, How can I judge her? I can’t. But on the same token we do rely on Gods mercy BUT do we not have to follow his law also. See what I meam?

 

[Mickey]

It is exactly this type of vague terminology that the inquiring mind interacts with and seeks resolution.

I am sorry that you think calling our Lord, “All Merciful” is vague terminology. I am very comfortable with it.

That is how doctrine develops.

Some call it development–others call it innovation.

God is “all” merciful, but apparently it doesnt apply to “all” people, but only those who are “repentant”?

How do you know that? You do not have the mind of God.

Is that what you meant by “all” merciful - that God is selectively merciful??

No.

I agree that God is perfectly merciful, but to leave the doctrine of forgiveness off at “God is all merciful” is pretty weak, dontcha think?

No. We have the sacrament of Holy confession. We know that we have the sacraments as channels of sanctifying grace. But God is not bound by His sacraments. Please do not try to predict on whom God will have mercy.

 

[Mickey]

That is why I wondered regarding their theology of unrepentant sin at the time of death.

And as I told you–it is not your place to worry about who may or may not have been unrepentant when they die. Pray for them.

Im sure people have died on the way to confession, people have died after getting drunk, etc. Does this have impact on their salvation?

Only God knows.

Let me guess - the priest “witnesses” these events as well despite the fact that God is “all” merciful?

Christ works through the presbyter to administer the sacraments. He is a servant and a witness. But let me guess–you think that you are being cute with your sarcasm now?

Uh, yea. You keep saying that God is “all merciful”, but that people still end up in hell, presumably because their sins are not forgiven by God.

I am so sorry that you do not believe that God is all merciful. It breaks my heart. God does not send people to hell.

That only leaves the rationale mind grasping to understand why, if God is “all merciful” people end up in Hell.

God does not send people to hell. However, it is the “rational” mind that came up with the “developed” doctrine of “purgatory”.

It’s confusing.

Then you must pray about it.

Thats why doctrine get articulated by those in a position within the Church to do so. Otherwise no one will know what the faith is! They gotta have a statement of faith or an explanation of Orthodox theology or whatever. You dont know where to find it?

I will tell you one more time: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the seven great Ecumenical Councils, and the writings of the Holy Fathers. You will find your answers there.

Thats fine. You recognize the importance of participating in the Sacraments - including Reconciliation - in order to access God’s mercy, but you apparently have no idea of the consequence of failing to do so.

Access? God freely gives His grace and we have the free will to participate. You should not worry about other people’s sins–you are not a heart reader.

I dont believe that is the Orthodox position.

You are mistaken.

It sounds like you dont know what it is.

I dont mean to be rude, but it’s such a fundamental question that I cant believe the Orthodox havent written about it.

That is okay. Your ignorance is excused. You obviously do not know much about Holy Orthodoxy. Why would the Church write about a doctrine that does not exist (purgatory)? :whacky:

You are not really thinking this out.

I have studied the faith extensively–and I continue to study and pray. Thanks for your opinion regarding my thought process.

You dont need to read peoples hearts - observe there actions:

Stop judging people’s actions. You do not know their hearts.

Is it really that much of a stretch to wonder about the fate of some one who is killed, say, in the act of robbery? Are they hell bound or not?

We do not know.

Obviously we cannot judge a persons heart, and, ultimately we trust in God’s Mercy,

Now you are catching on.

but still the leaders of the faith have an obligation to let you know if certain behaviors put one at risk of losing salvation.

We must know our faith. We must examine our consciences continually.

Thats why the faithful need the faith spelled out for them.

That is why we have Tradition and the writings of the Holy Fathers to interpret things that are not clear. Otherwise, some aspects of the faith must be accepted as a great Mystery.

Peace

 

[Mickey]

It is God’s JUSTICE that judges our actions and intentions, and then with complete Love and impartiallity, makes a Just decission.

The laborers from the first hour felt that it was not just to pay the same wages to the laborers from the eleventh hour.

People end up in hell or heaven because those very same people decided for themselves

 

[rinnie]

Mickey, let me ask you this friend to friend, because I do consider you my friend. No sarcasm here.

Now lets say you have the worst day of your life, you are a good Christian man, but you have had it. You make a mistake, you go out, drink too much meet a women and end up commiting adultery. Now the next morning you wake up, now you have hurt many many people. First your wife, your kids, her husband her kids the list goes on and on,

Now on your way home you get killed, kind of like the one post said, now you are in grave sin. Now how can you go to heaven with this great sin on you, Are you going straight to hell, that would not be fair either. Now you and I do disagree about confession and thats okay too. Because I was taught confession then penance. (also to me for some that penance could last the rest of someones life) I will explain that later. Back to the point, you are in grave sin, mortal sin actually but it goes back to how God is going to judge it. Now in this world we must go and confess our sins, and do penance for grave sins, ( that is the cleansing we CAN and WANT to do in this world.) Now we do agree on this part we cannot go to heaven with sin, now whats our fate then, It would have to be hell, right? If there is no purgatory how do we get cleansed from that sin, we can’t do it here we are dead. So it would have to be hell right? THat is why we as RC believe in purgatory. Do you see my point, we do believe in Gods Mercy, but we also know that while Gods mercy can save us from hell, we still must be cleansed from that sin,

Now how do you relate to that story in your Church’s teachings? Again I am just asking? I am not wanting to argue or fight?

I am just trying to get you on my level of thinking, and trying to understand your level of thinking on this?

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, let me ask you this friend to friend, because I do consider you my friend. No sarcasm here.

Now lets say you have the worst day of your life, you are a good Christian man, but you have had it. You make a mistake, you go out, drink too much meet a women and end up commiting adultery. Now the next morning you wake up, now you have hurt many many people. First your wife, your kids, her husband her kids the list goes on and on,

Now on your way home you get killed, kind of like the one post said, now you are in grave sin. Now how can you go to heaven with this great sin on you, Are you going straight to hell, that would not be fair either.

Hi Rinnie,

It is almost impossible for me to imagine this scenario. I quit drinking many years ago and could not imagine starting again. And I could not even dream about being unfaithful to my beloved wife. But I can now see where we have a communication gap. If I sinned terribly and died immediately thereafter, what would happen to me? This is the question. First of all, I would hope that I was immediately and sincerely sorrow for my sin with the sincere intention of going to confession as soon as possible. But I die in a car accident before I can get there. Thankfully, God is all merciful and knows my heart. The Orthodox Church also believes that “nothing unclean can enter heaven”. So we know that there is going to be a cleansing process. That is as far as Orthodoxy will go. We do not say that it will take any amount of time (because there is no time to God). The cleansing may happen in the blink of an eye. We do not say that there is any type of indulgence that can shorten this “purgatorial” process. We do not say that it is a punishment and we do not claim that it will involve a literal fire. I have been told by Latin Catholic theologians that the aspects of time, punishment, and fire are nothing more than theological speculation–and that the understanding of purgatory is simply the fact that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven”. If that is true, then our Churches are very close. However, indulgences would remain troublesome.

Orthodoxy believes that we are constantly being perfected and brought closer to God through His energies. This is called theosis or deification and it is a never ending process–in this life and the next.

That being said, I think that the Latin Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, in theory, are closer on this issue than they are on some of the other issues that separate them–such as papal infallibility.

I hope I was able to answer your question rinnie. God bless.

Sixburgh rules!!!

 

[rinnie]

Thanks Mickey, I like you would not want that sin on me, and hated to have to think of something like that to get my point across. But see thats why we as RC do believe in purgatory. Yes I agree with Jesus time is not what we consider time. And the (place) or (state of mind) think about it is kinda like the same thing. What I mean by that is when we dream, its impossible to tell if its in our mind or real at the time (see what I mean) its still real to us.

But the point still remains that we cannot get into heaven without being cleansed of that sin. Thats just the reason RC call that cleansing purgatory Mickey. No one can say what it really is, where it really is, if its really a state, a place, we just know its not heaven, and its not hell. It a being caught in sin that needs to be washed away in state or place. Can you see why and where I am going with this,

 

[Mickey]

But the point still remains that we cannot get into heaven without being cleansed of that sin.

Correct.

Thats just the reason RC call that cleansing purgatory Mickey.

Yes. I know.

No one can say what it really is, where it really is, if its really a state, a place, we just know its not heaven, and its not hell.

And that is the whole point rinnie. The Orthodox know that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. That is as far as we go. We trust in the mercy of God.

It a being caught in sin that needs to be washed away in state or place.

If I am not mistaken, the Roman Catholic Church now refers to “purgatory” as “a state” instead of “a place”. That is a good thing.

 

[rinnie]

Correct.
Yes. I know.
And that is the whole point rinnie. The Orthodox know that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. That is as far as we go. We trust in the mercy of God.
If I am not mistaken, the Roman Catholic Church now refers to “purgatory” as “a state” instead of “a place”. That is a good thing.

Right Mickey, but now think back to the bible. We know that everything in the bible is true but not explained to us. But it will be revealed when God wants it revealed. Now the doctrine of Purgatory has been revealed to the Church through the Pope.

Now just because we believe that it is a state instead of a place still admits that it does indeed exist. See what I am saying. And remember Mickey our Pope does not know everything, Only what God tells him. If he does not know no one does. But it will be revealed to our Popes and Bishops when God says.

But what my point is yes we rely on Gods mercy for everything Mickey. There is not one sin that we can do that Jesus did not pay for on the cross, that also is true. But heres the problem we cannot die with sin, and if we do we have to rely on Gods Mercy, Now if Gods extends his Mercy, which we know as Catholics if we are really sincere we can be forgiven. But as you know and I know to be forgiven is one thing, to be cleansed from that sin is another.

Like you said you have drank in the past. Now for some people drinking is not a sin. They can have a few, stop and continue on their day as usual and it does not change them. Others cannot, they either cannot stop, or it can change them into ugly people. Thats how I said for some their penance can be forever. Like someone who cannot control drinking, they must confess, and do their penance. ANd their penance can be a life time for a alcoholic they can never drink again, See what I mean, they are forgiven but have to quit the sin. Now by quiting the sin and fighting day after day that urge is the cleansing process in this world.

That is why as Catholics we still believe you can be forgiven, but still have to rid or cleanse yourself of the sin. Thats purgatory, Father said on ewtn you can pay me now, or pay me later. But this is the short world, do it here. God Bless Mickey.

 

[Philthy]

Mickey:

And as I told you–it is not your place to worry about who may or may not have been unrepentant when they die. Pray for them.

I see - I dont need to worry about them, but I should be praying for them? Why should I be praying for them if I’m not worried about them? Why should I be praying if they are already dead? Where -specifically- would you get such an idea? What is happening that my prayers are efficacious for someone who has already died? You have left many stones unturned with your recommendation to both “not worry” and simultaneously “pray for them”.

I am so sorry that you do not believe that God is all merciful. It breaks my heart. God does not send people to hell.
God does not send people to hell.

Where did you come up with the idea that God doesnt send them to Hell? Please provide a single source for such a notion - Scripture, Tradition, etc - anything but your unsubstantiated opinion.

However, it is the “rational” mind that came up with the “developed” doctrine of “purgatory”.

Reason is a gift of God and we have obligation to love God with all our mind.

You should not worry about other people’s sins–you are not a heart reader.

You dont have any children, do you? You might think a little differently. St Paul wrote most of his letters because he was worried about the sins of church communities.

You are mistaken. That is okay. Your ignorance is excused. You obviously do not know much about Holy Orthodoxy. Why would the Church write about a doctrine that does not exist (purgatory)? :whacky:

Thank you for excusing my ignorance. Please notice that I have not used the word Purgatory in my responses to you. I ask about concrete realities - unrepented sin at death and how that impacts salvation and you continue to dodge the question. If the Orthodox answer is “Nobody knows” simply say so.

Stop judging people’s actions. You do not know their hearts.

Scripture tells us to specifically pray for a brother we “see” sinning - if the sin is not “deadly”. Here let me quote one of your sources “If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not {leading} to death, he shall ask and {God} will for him give life to those who commit sin not {leading} to death. There is a sin {leading} to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.” 1 John 5:16
Is this an example of not judging actions?

We must know our faith. …That is why we have Tradition and the writings of the Holy Fathers to interpret things that are not clear. Otherwise, some aspects of the faith must be accepted as a great Mystery.

You must define your faith, otherwise no one will know what it is - like me! Defining it is an ongoing process where ongoing clarifications to new realities or areas of confusion arise. Out of curiosity, when was the last ecumincal council? Lastly, how do I know which ecumenical councils represent the “Holy Orthodox Church” does the council identify itself as such?

Blessings

 

[PJM]

=rinnie;4867561]Hi PjM, And I agree with everything you say. But here is where I think it hits lets say the gray area.

A friend of mine was never baptized and never had her kids baptized. She never felt the need, so when I baptized mine, she said she believed that just because I did and she didn’t her kids had just as much a chance of getting into heaven as mine.

Let’s began by reviewing what Christ Himself tell’s us.

John 3: 5"** Jesus answered, “Truly, truly,** I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

These are the very words of Jesus Himself. They are clear, specific, and apply to all, all the time.

Something we must understand and never forget is that “truth does not have to be believed inorder for it to be the truth.” There are
zillions of examples where the truth is denined, but it still THE TRUTH. Agreed?

If your friend denies the bible, then all I suggest you do is pray daily for her and her children.

So the fact that your friend choses not to accept The Truth, does nothing to validate her position, and nothing to alter what is actually the truth. If she has the oportunity to learn the TRUTH and choses not to, she is cupable for a Grave Sin, if the matter is a “grave matter,” which in this case it definitely is. And it seems clear that you are rightly giving her the opportunity to learn the truth.

Supported by common logic, both the Late Great JP II and Pope benedict XVI, have clearly explained that on any given topic their can be only one single truth. As Benedict say’s: “their can’t be your truth and my truth, or their would be NO TRUTH.”

Clearly she is putting her personal salvation at GRAVE risk, while at the same time making her childrens salvation uncertain.

Okay now, I agree, it is not the babys fault. But here is the gray area at what age, or time frame does it become the right age now. See what I mean, She told me she did not have to get baptized, (well I said the bible does say different). I could see it was a no win subject so I just dropped it. But do you see what I mean, How can I judge her? I can’t. But on the same token we do rely on Gods mercy BUT do we not have to follow his law also. See what I meam?

The official teaching of the RCC, is that a child should be baptized ASAP after birth, to assure their Salvation. We can, and should, trust in God’s Mercy, should an infant die without Baptism; but we can’t know with certitude that the infant in question is actually in heaven. We THINK it is, but do not actually know for sure.

You can, and should judge her relative to her judgements and actions, which seem to be very clear. Please read Mt. 7: 15-20

If you are able to so it with tenderness, charity, and without anger, you are morally obligated to share this information with her. Again, I caution you, if your friend will not accept the bible as God’s Word, and binding on all, then all I suggest you do is pray for her the kids.

If she claims to believe in the bible, began with 2 Tim. 3:16 - 17 "16 All scripture is inspired by God and * profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Then start at the top of this post and proceed. another option, is to cut and paste this post and let her read it from an impartial 3td. party, me. And then just answer her questions.

We never argue our faith. We share it when we are given the opportunty to do so.

:extrahappy: your doing good, God bless you:clapping:

Pat

 

[Mickey]

Now the doctrine of Purgatory has been revealed to the Church through the Pope.

During the first 1000 years of Christianity, when our Churches were united, no such “doctrine” was revealed. About 200 years after the great schism, Rome decided to proclaim it. I am unable to accept it as defined by Rome. Sorry.

Now just because we believe that it is a state instead of a place still admits that it does indeed exist.

A cleansing exists if needed. That is as far as I can agree.

See what I am saying. And remember Mickey our Pope does not know everything, Only what God tells him. If he does not know no one does. But it will be revealed to our Popes and Bishops when God says.

God can reveal anything to anyone.

But what my point is yes we rely on Gods mercy for everything Mickey.

Yes.

But as you know and I know to be forgiven is one thing, to be cleansed from that sin is another.

Orthodoxy believes that forgiveness is forgiveness. We do not adhere to the Latin understanding of needing to be cleansed of temporal leftovers. I suppose this is another place that we disagree.

Now by quiting the sin and fighting day after day that urge is the cleansing process in this world.

It is important to squelch the passions in this life.
But I still enjoy an occasional glass of wine with dinner.

That is why as Catholics we still believe you can be forgiven, but still have to rid or cleanse yourself of the sin.

And we believe as Orthodox that once you are forgiven, it is important to believe that you are forgiven. Then we attempt to “go and sin no more”.

Father said on ewtn you can pay me now, or pay me later. But this is the short world, do it here.

Amen. We cannot repent after we die.

 

[PJM]

“Originally Posted by rinnie
Now the doctrine of Purgatory has been revealed to the Church through the Pope.”

:nope: The RCC Doctrine on Purgatory in bible based and biblically proveable.

Old Testament 2 Mac. 12: 39-42

New Testament 1 Cor. 3:12-15

Hope this clarfies your concerns a bit

 

[Mickey]

Old Testament 2 Mac. 12: 39-42Prayers for the dead–not purgatory.

**New Testament 1 Cor. 3:12-15 **

This fire is referring to the last day. No purgatory here either.

 

[Mickey]

I see - I dont need to worry about them, but I should be praying for them? Why should I be praying for them if I’m not worried about them? Pray for everyone Phil. Where were you taught that you only pray for those you are worried about? How very strange.

Why should I be praying if they are already dead? We pray for mercy. Lord have mercy.

Philthy:
Where -specifically- would you get such an idea? What is happening that my prayers are efficacious for someone who has already died? God is not limited by time.

 

[Mickey]

You have left many stones unturned with your recommendation to both “not worry” and simultaneously “pray for them”.

No stone is unturned my friend. You should pray for those that you love, hate, and worry about. You should pray for everyone–so that God sheds His grace and mercy upon them.

 

[Mickey]

Where did you come up with the idea that God doesnt send them to Hell? Please provide a single source for such a notion - Scripture, Tradition, etc - anything but your unsubstantiated opinion.

Consequently, paradise and hell are not a reward or a punishment (condemnation), but the way that we individually experience the sight of Christ, depending on the condition of our heart. God doesn’t punish in essence, although, for educative purposes, the Scripture does mention punishment. The more spiritual that one becomes, the better he can comprehend the language of the Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Man’s condition (clean-unclean, repentant-unrepentant) is the factor that determines the acceptance of the Light as “paradise” or “hell”.

In the Gospels (Matthew, ch.5), mention is made of “kingdom” and “eternal fire”. In this excerpt, which is cited during the Liturgy of this Sunday, the “kingdom” is the divine destination of mankind. The “fire” is “prepared” for the devil and his angels (demons), not because God desires it, but because they are without repentance . The “kingdom” is “prepared” for those who remain faithful to the will of God. The uncreated glory is Paradise (the “Kingdom”). “Eternal fire” is hell (v.46). At the beginning of history, God invites man into paradise, into a communion with His uncreated Grace. At the end of history, man has to face both paradise and hell. We shall see further down what this means. We do however stress that it is one of the central subjects of our faith — it is Orthodox Christianity’s “philosopher’s stone.”
orthodoxytoday.org/articles-2009/Mettalinos-Paradise-And-Hell-According-To-Orthodox-Tradition.php

 

[cazayoux]

Prayers for the dead–not purgatory.

2 Macc 12:39-42
39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out.

If there is no purgatory, are you saying that the only other choices are heaven and hell?

Those in heaven do not need our prayers, those in hell cannot be helped by prayer.

Those dead being prayed for are not in heaven nor hell.
Where are they?

This fire is referring to the last day. No purgatory here either.

1 Cor 3:12-15
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13* each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15* If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

I agree that the fire being mentioned will be testing our works on ‘the Day’. The question is now about where, rather than when.
Through fire a man will suffer loss, yet still be saved.

There is no loss in heaven. There is no being saved in hell.
The place this happens is not heaven nor hell
Where are they?

 

[Mickey]

Reason is a gift of God and we have obligation to love God with all our mind.

With all our mind is referring to the mind in the heart—the nous. We are saved by grace through faith. Rationalism and “reason” usually leads to confusing doctrines.

 

[Mickey]

If there is no purgatory, are you saying that the only other choices are heaven and hell?

Your Church teaches that purgatory already means you are heaven bound. Are you claiming that there is a third “place”?

Those in heaven do not need our prayers

“In my Fathers kingdom there are many mansions”.

those in hell cannot be helped by prayer.

The soul united with the body will not be judged for heaven or hell until the final judgement.

Those dead being prayed for are not in heaven nor hell. Where are they?

God is not restrained by time.

There is no loss in heaven. There is no being saved in hell.
The place this happens is not heaven nor hell
Where are they?

At the final judgement, **everyone **will be tested as by fire. The righteous will be purified like precious stones and lifted to paradise while the condemned will be burned and cast in eternal torment.