Purgatory

[cazayoux]

I’m asking for a place you say it’s a state.
Is heaven a place or a state?
Is hell a place or a state?

If you are not on earth, in heaven, or in hell, then you are either somewhere else or, in your terminology, somestate else.

Purgatory is not happening on earth, in heaven, or in hell.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

      As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[Mickey]

I’m asking for a place you say it’s a state.

You had better check your sources. I believe that the RCC teaches purgatory as a state. The CCC certainly says nothing about a place.

 

[Mickey]

But as I can relate to Mickey that it may not have been the teachings 1000 years ago, it just wasn’t revealed to us 1000 years ago. IT is today, thats what counts. And speaking for myself if the Pope makes it the doctrine of the CHurch Im in.

That’s okay rinnie. If I believed in the post schism development of the RCC doctrine, then I would have to be Roman Catholic. If you were unable to accept more than was revealed when the Churches were united, then you would have to be Orthodox.

We have had some rough moments, but you have a very kind heart–I respect that. God bless.

 

[rinnie]

That’s okay rinnie. If I believed in the post schism development of the RCC doctrine, then I would have to be Roman Catholic. If you were unable to accept more than was revealed when the Churches were united, then you would have to be Orthodox.

We have had some rough moments, but you have a very kind heart–I respect that. God bless.

We do not and will not agree on the doctrine of purgatory. But you are also very kind and I respect you also mickey. We had our times, but I consider you a friend of mine for life. God Bless you also Mickey. But we have more in common then we differ on thats for sure.

 

[Godfollower]

The Orthodox Church also believes that “nothing unclean can enter heaven”. So we know that there is going to be a cleansing process. That is as far as Orthodoxy will go. We do not say that it will take any amount of time (because there is no time to God). The cleansing may happen in the blink of an eye. We do not say that there is any type of indulgence that can shorten this “purgatorial” process. We do not say that it is a punishment and we do not claim that it will involve a literal fire. I have been told by Latin Catholic theologians that the aspects of time, punishment, and fire are nothing more than theological speculation–and that the understanding of purgatory is simply the fact that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven”. If that is true, then our Churches are very close.

Then we are very close. All of this is true according to the Catholic Church. “Purgatory” is the cleansing that happens after death. I suppose one could argue that it’s a “third” place in the sense that it isn’t actually in Heaven (just as the place we’ll be standing when Jesus separates the just and the unjust for their ultimate destinations of Heaven and Hell is, obviously, neither in Heaven nor in Hell), but it is not a final destination. No one going to Hell will go to Purgatory (there’s no point); no one going to Purgatory will end up anywhere other than Heaven. The Catholic Church does not teach that it necessarily has any specific time, place, manner, etc.; or that it is necessarily punishment, per se – but she does teach that it seems likely that there will be pain of the this-hurts-but-it’s-good-for-you variety (think of the analogy between removing concupiscence and pulling a rotten tooth; it’s good for you, but the actual process isn’t exactly pleasant – but neither is imposed for punishment’s sake).

 

[Mickey]

But we have more in common then we differ on thats for sure.

Absolutely!

 

[Mickey]

Then we are very close.

Perhaps. It does seem that sometimes we talk past eachother. But I will offer one more thing. I do not believe that the cleansing will be painful in the sense that we know physical pain in this body–in this life. The painful literal suffering will happen in this life. The cleansing after repose will be more of a shedding of our worldly attachments.

 

[PJM]

=Mickey;4867681]The laborers from the first hour felt that it was not just to pay the same wages to the laborers from the eleventh hour.

My dear Brother in Christ,

I guessing you think that this was not fair, not just?

Did you read the "rest of the story?"Mt. Chapter 20: “9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ *** 16* So the last will be first, and the first last.” :tiphat:

Love and prayers,

 

[Philthy]

There were many heresies that St Paul was dealing with. There were many heresies that the Church Fathers dealt with. And there are many heresies today.

Heresies are interesting but irrelevant to our discussion.
Here let me recap for you so you can follow the discussion:
You attempted to argue that we should not judge actions because we do not know hearts. I tried to appeal to your sense of reason by pointing out that St Paul wrote several letters specifically addressing actions of members of his churches. Rather than address that issue, you point out that St Paul had to address some heresies. That, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that he also - that is, in addition to addressing heresies - judged the actions of members of the communities to which he was writing. That’s a pretty weak attempt at an “argument” in favor of not judging the actions of others.

 

[Philthy]

No stone is unturned my friend. You should pray for those that you love, hate, and worry about. You should pray for everyone–so that God sheds His grace and mercy upon them.

We should pray for everyone? Even the Saints? Do you pray for St Paul? Mary? St Ignatious?

 

[Philthy]

Originally Posted by Philthy forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Scripture tells us to specifically pray for a brother we “see” sinning - if the sin is not “deadly”.
*

do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
—Philippians 4:6

 

[Philthy]

Your Church teaches that purgatory already means you are heaven bound. Are you claiming that there is a third “place”?

Heaven is a state of being
Hell is a state of being
Purgatory is a state of being

What is the state of being of those souls prior to the final judgment? Are they experiencing Heaven? Are they experiencing Hell? Is it a mystery? If so, is it wrong to give the non-Heaven, non-Hell mystery a name?

 

[Philthy]

Philthy brought it up. I supposed I should have ignored it.

Sure - blame it on me!
I wanted to know what an official orthodox doctrinal source was to ascertain - apart from your excellent personal assurances - that what you preach is, in fact, Orthodox Church teaching. You listed the seven “Ecumenical Councils”. That is how the topic arose.

 

[Godfollower]

Perhaps. It does seem that sometimes we talk past eachother. But I will offer one more thing. I do not believe that the cleansing will be painful in the sense that we know physical pain in this body–in this life. The painful literal suffering will happen in this life. The cleansing after repose will be more of a shedding of our worldly attachments.

We don’t teach that Purgatory will be painful; we teach that it seems to us that it will be. But that pain isn’t necessarily physical. Imagine meeting God face-to-face as He cleanses you. Won’t you feel deep shame, humiliation, etc.? I think it will be painful in that sense.

But that, too, is merely an opinion. The Church does not teach this as dogma.

 

[rinnie]

We don’t teach that Purgatory will be painful; we teach that it seems to us that it will be. But that pain isn’t necessarily physical. Imagine meeting God face-to-face as He cleanses you. Won’t you feel deep shame, humiliation, etc.? I think it will be painful in that sense.

But that, too, is merely an opinion. The Church does not teach this as dogma.

I agree with you Godfollower, I do not think there is any worse pain then shame. To have to see the pain that you have done in your life to others because of your sin. Thats pretty hard to handle. Running through hot coals as they say would be less pain, to me anyway, then to sit back and see what my sin or actions may have contributed to cause anyothers pain or misery.

Especially to the inocent ones. That would actually be worse then purgatory, that in itself could indeed be hell. BUt that is just how great Gods mercy is. I think he has to have more mercy on us then we do on ourself or very very few could get in.

 

[PJM]

=Mickey;4869635]So Rome officially teaches that purgatory is a third place? I did not know this. Can you show me where this is written?

The Catacheism of the RCC…

"1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."

“1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.”

Do you believe there are different levels of heaven? Many Mansions. St Paul talks about the third heaven.
Are you familiar with theosis?

This teaching / belirf is neither a Dogma, or a Doctrine, so one can choose to accept it or not.

Personaly, I beleive it because it seems to confrom to God’s Just Nature. I expect to get heaven (God willing), but I am noway near as good as OH SO AMNY OTHERS. They deserve a “better seat.”

Our souls experience either a foretaste of heaven or a foretaste of hell depending on the life we lived (see the parable of Lazrus and the rich man).

Actually a Judged soul will go to:

1. Heaven directly (few)
2. Purgatory if they are to end up in heaven (some}
3. Directly to Hell, no stop in Purgatory. (a GREAT many!)

It is not a place. It is a state as we wait for the final judgment.

I too have heard this, but have never seen it articulated as the “Position” of the RCC. Just as Heaven and Hell are destinations, I suspect, so to is Purgatory.

Love and prayers my friend,

 

[Mickey]

The Catacheism of the RCC…

This says nothing about a third “place”.

Actually a Judged soul will go to:

1. Heaven directly (few)
2. Purgatory if they are to end up in heaven (some}
3. Directly to Hell, no stop in Purgatory. (a GREAT many!)

The final destination of heaven and hell is not determined for us until the final judgement.

I too have heard this, but have never seen it articulated as the “Position” of the RCC.

The mystery continues.

 

[Mickey]

My dear Brother in Christ,

I guessing you think that this was not fair, not just?

I think it is very fair and just. Our ways are not God’s ways.

 

[Mickey]

Heresies are interesting but irrelevant to our discussion.

Good. Then you can stop talking about councils.

You attempted to argue that we should not judge actions because we do not know hearts.Correct. We should nor pass judgement.

Philthy:

I tried to appeal to your sense of reason by pointing out that St Paul wrote several letters specifically addressing actions of members of his churches…

There were many heresies–even in the early Church. Oops, you did not want to talk about heresies.

Rather than address that issue, you point out that St Paul had to address some heresies.

I addressed the issue.

That, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that he also - that is, in addition to addressing heresies - judged the actions of members of the communities to which he was writing…

It has everything to do with it. St Paul had to address terrible heterodox issues in the Churches–especially the Corinthians.

That’s a pretty weak attempt at an “argument”

Do you have anything more to say about purgatory, or have you resorted to ad hominem?

 

[Mickey]

quote=Philthy;4875812]We should pray for everyone? Yes.
quote=Philthy;4875812]Even the Saints? Do you pray for St Paul? Mary? St Ignatious?Those who are glorified we ask to pray for us.