The blood of Christ is the atoning agent in God’s view, according to His Word. But His Word states NOTHING about Purgatory, much less the fires of Purgatory being Christ’s love. “Purgatory” is uniquely RC.
True Christianity isn’t based on the “opinions” of men. It’s based entirely on what God Himself has revealed. This is what distinguishes true Christianity from all the man-made religions and cults on earth.
As I stated in a previous post, there were no sacrifices for the dead in the Law of Moses. Nor are there any N.T. verses that support (teach) Catholic Purgatory. In the Epistles it is taught that ALL sins were dealt with, once for all, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And now those who believe this Divine message receive forgiveness of ALL sins and are born again out of Adam and into the risen Christ, the “Last Adam,” in whom they have redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14). Therefore, in Biblical Christianity there is no need for a place like Catholic Purgatory, or its terrible sufferings.
In 2 Tim. 1:16-18 Paul is not praying for a dead man but affectionately mentioning a man’s household to his readers. “The Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day” is a statement of gratitude, not a prayer for a man in Catholic Purgatory. In fact, NONE of this states anything about Catholic Purgatory. You’re like the others here who read your fully formed doctrine into your selected verses. Now if Paul would have written something like, “May the Lord grant mercy to Onesiphorus and lessen his present suffering in the afterlife,” then you could say Paul taught on Purgatory. But he didn’t. Hence, nor can you say he did. But rather Paul stated that to be absent from the body (upon death) is to at Home with the Lord. BIG different between what Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit and what Rome teaches by imagination.
First of all, for you the only source of Divine revelation is what is written in Scripture. The Apostles lived with Jesus for 3 years and also had revelation throught the Holy spirit. This is not all contained within the 27 New testament books but is part of Catholic Tradition, which you of course, deny.
This is absoltuely true. Without Faith, no man can be saved. However, it isn’t the end of the requirements for salvation. It is only the start.
sure, its the will of God that you believe in his son. But that’s not all he wants. He wants you to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus tells us throughout scripture to “Follow Me”. To walk in his way… St. Paul Says in !Corinthians 13 that love is more important than Faith. In John, Jesus gives us a new commandment: Love each other as I have loved you. St. James says Faith without works is Dead. Why can’t you grasp that while Faith is necessary for salvation, more is required - specifically Love.
we all agree with this.
this is a misunderstanding of the Catholic postion. We don’t cling to works. We do good works as a completion of our calling to the Lord. We are following his example and striving for holiness, not for reward, but out of Love for Christ. do you not do the same?
This is simply not true. The goats are believers, Do they not call Jesus “Lord” in verse 44, jsut as the sheep do in verse 37? No, the differentiation between them is that the sheep performed works of mercy, while the Goats do not. And why do you say that this does not describe the last judgement? It says that its after he comes in glory, does it not? and the result is that the sheep go to heaven, while the goats are condemned to hell. sounds like the last judgement to me.
Sure, all sins are foregiven when man turns to God though faith in Jesus Christ and is Baptized. But that means all previous sins, not all future Sins. Even Saint Paul, as holy as he was, recognized that the possibility of being condemned existed if he didn’t persevere. Jesus said in Reveleation that nothing unclean would enter heaven. Thisis a call to holiness, not a statement that says we can sin all we want because they won’t be counted against us if we only believe.
See what else the Scriptures say are required for our salvation:
Whoa, Moondweller…one step at a time.
Okay moondweller. You know when I talk to you it reminds me of the saying wheels on the bus go round and round
God has been preserving His Word via theopneustos Scriptures since Moses. Prophets spoke to their immediate generation but what God wanted all subsequent generations to know he preserved in theopneustos Scriptures. Christ Himself always referred to them, not to the traditions of mere men.
This is a very obscure verse and Paul provides us with no explanation. But one never reads where Paul or any of the Apostles ever baptized anyone for dead people. The context of that chapter is about the truth of the future resurrection of the body, not souls suffering in a place called “Purgatory.” The practice of baptizing “for the dead” was not done until the second century and ONLY then among heretics. How many baptisms have you received “for the dead” in “Purgatory” by your church, Paul? Were you given specific names? AGAIN, where is the doctrine of “Purgatory” actually taught in this verse?
Salvation, according to the written Word of God, is Divinely GIFTED, once for all, when one’s faith is in the Person and FINISHED work of Jesus Christ on the cross.Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works,…”
No, Paul, for salvation God requires that you believe in the Son. Believe what He accomplished, once for all, for you. It is those who do believe and are saved by grace through faith, “not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9) that are then “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10). But it’s not the works by which they had been saved: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…the gift of God, not as a result of works….”
You claim works are to be done as a completion of your salvation. But God’s preserved, written Word says, “…NOT as a result of works.”
The difference is that my salvation does not depend AT ALL on my striving for holiness in this life. My salvation is based solely on God’s love toward me in Christ Jesus, not mine for Him - TO HIM BE THE GLORY! I love Him because He first loved me and sent His Son to be the propitiation for my sins (1 Jn. 4:10).
No true believer can ever be called “cursed” (Christ took his curse upon Himself), nor enter the eternal fires prepared for the devil and his angels. You obviously have no idea what salvation is.
At the end of this age He does come in glory. But He returns as “King of kings and Lord of Lords” (Rev. 19) to fulfill what the ancient Hebrew prophets foretold about the, Messianic Kingdom He’ll set up on earth at His return (for example: Is. 11:1-12; Jer. 30:1-11; 31:31-40; 32:36-41; 33:14-26; Zech. 14), and what was told to Mary at the Annunciation (Lk. 1:32-33). His “glorious throne” is on earth and those “sheep” and “goats” are Gentiles living on earth at His second Advent. His “sheep” enter His earthly kingdom (as mortals), the “goats” do not. This is a SEPARATION of people, not a judgment.
“Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn. 1:29). How long will you remain in unbelief?
Cathoic Traditions are not the traditions of mere men. They are what the Apostles learned from Jesus. Its nice to claim that Scriptures are God Breathed, but that doesn’t mean they are easily understood. In fact, there was always an human authority in place to interpret the scripture: the high priest in the Old Testament and the Pope in the New Testament. If you don’t beleive that such an authority is required, please explain how different people of good faith understand the same verse of Scripture so differently. Jesus send the Apostles out to teach what they had been taught and that continues through the Catholic Church today.
What it means is that people were getting baptized as a testamonial to the faith of their departed dead This . It doens’t mean that the dead were being baptized. It means the living were being baptized and translating those graces to the dead in purgatory. We beleive that we can help the dead in purgatory be purified through our prayers. This is part of what is meant by the communion of the saints. Death is no barrier to our prayers.
You are just restating your statement that Faith is required for Salvation, to which I agree. What you are not doing is addressing my point which is that more than just Faith is required. You must live your faith or else it is just words, a clanging gong as Paul puts it in 1Corinthians 13. Sure your salvation is based on God’s love. but you must follow in Christ paths. Remember, Matthew 7: 21-27:
Its nice that you believe you understand Salvation better than the Catholic church. What are your credentials for making such a bold claim? The Catholic church was given the keys to the kingdom through St. Peter. They’ve had millions of theologians ponder these questions for 2000 years, answering any number of skeptics, and documenting their thoughts and revelations. Yet, you, all by yourself have a better view of salvation? Why should anyone believe you?
Kinda reminds me of a quote that St Augustine.
Peace, JackCare to expand on this? What are the false assumptions you are referring to?
Exactly. *** Each and every time ***a non-Catholic is using a verse from Scripture to object to a Catholic practice, he’s giving tacit approval to the Authority of the CC–ah, the irony!
I already answered this.
We don’t know. The text gives us no certainty. But Paul’s expressed desire for him was that he be rewarded by the Lord for his faithful service to him. The others in Asia had turned away from Paul but Onesiphorus did not and remained faithful.
Okay. You wrote:
I have not read purgatory into this. I have laid one brick into place…Paul prayed for the dead. This means that the dead CAN be prayed for and by implication that they BENEFIT from these prayers. Since those in heaven don’t need prayer and those in hell CAN’T benefit from intercession, who can possibly gain any assistance from Paul’s prayer?
Does the passage say they fasted FOR the “good” of Saul? Don’t read something into the text that’s not there, Joann.
Actually Jesus stated that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit either in this age or the age to come WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. The age to come is the Millennial (1000 year) reign of Christ on earth. Speaking against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven during that age, either. Jesus states NOTHING about a “place” where sins are forgiven.
So you’re saying that the horrific pains yet to be experienced in your Purgatory is not about cleansing of sins but paying one’s debt for “forgiven” sins. Rather contradictory, I’d say!
So you’re saying your Purgatory is a “prison.”
