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rinnie
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Moondweller this is a simple question. And one I really think you need to answer.
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Randy_Carson
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His response in post #209 would make Bill Clinton proud.
He said, “No, according to the text.” Eutychus was raised from the dead, but Paul didn’t pray from him…no, siree.
Regarding whether Peter prayed for Tabitha, he gave the same answer the Pharisees gave Jesus: “We don’t know.”
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Randy_Carson
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I’d like to re-visit our discussion of temporal punishment…
"The temporal effects of sin are best illustrated in Genesis 3:14-20, where God pronounces a series of maledictions against Adam and Eve, the serpent, and even the physical creation itself, all as a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience: the original sin. The eternal penalty of their sin—hell—was something Christ atoned for on the cross, and Adam and Eve’s salvation and avoidance of that penalty was due to their faith in God’s promises and their subsequent obedience to His laws, but the temporal effects of sin remained. Enmity with the rest of nature, having to work to eat, labor pains for women, sickness, and eventually death, were all part of the punishments God permitted to fall upon Adam and Eve and all of us, their descendants. So when you, a born-again Christian, receive Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you correctly believe that He will forgive you of your sins and remit the eternal punishment they deserve. But you still are going to have to get up and go to work tomorrow, right? Your wife will still experience pain in childbirth; you may even someday be afflicted with cancer, or some other life-threatening disease. You might have a heart attack. And in the end you, like me and everybody else, will eventually suffer the greatest of the temporal punishments outlined in Genesis 3: You are going to die someday. Christ’s atoning sacrifice paid for your sins, but it didn’t wipe out the temporal effects, including the punishments I just mentioned of your sins.
"There are other examples of the principle of temporal punishments due to sin that God does not even eliminate even when we repent and are forgiven of our sins.
"For example, in 2 Samuel 12:14-14, we see the tragic case of King David. He had sinned by committing adultery and murder, and though the Lord forgave him when he repented, there were repercussions that followed which god did not alleviate. A form of restitution was still owed:
2 Samuel 12:13-14
13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”
“Now, how does all this fit into the doctrine of purgatory? Purgatory is the place or state (however you’d like to think of it) in which the fire of God’s love purifies us from the temporal effects due to sin, which include any temporal punishments due to our sins.”
From Answer Me This!
By Patrick Madrid
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TheWay
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Hi, relatively new Catholic (convert) and former Protestant here. I thought that maybe I could add a new perspective.
moondweller and most Protesants fail to realize that their theology entails a process. What Protestant theology refers to as “Glorification” or “Ultimate Sanctification” (as moondweller referred to it earlier) is a process, i.e., there is a before and after state of being: a state of being at the end of life prior to death where the Christian’s disposition can still succumb to the temptation of sin, and a state of being in Heaven where this disposition has been purged by God as evidenced by the fact that the person in Heaven will no longer sin. This change in the state of being effected by God after a person dies involves a sequence, hence it is a process. Moreover, it is a purification since the change removes the inclination to sin. How is this any different than the official Catholic teaching of Purgatory?
(1) Christians who have received the grace of salvation continue to sin. (2) No sin in Heaven. Hence, (3) God effects a change after death. As I understand it, official Catholic teaching is that Purgatory is a purification process after death. It has never been officially defined as a place.
moondweller and most Protesants fail to realize that their theology entails a process. What Protestant theology refers to as “Glorification” or “Ultimate Sanctification” (as moondweller referred to it earlier) is a process, i.e., there is a before and after state of being: a state of being at the end of life prior to death where the Christian’s disposition can still succumb to the temptation of sin, and a state of being in Heaven where this disposition has been purged by God as evidenced by the fact that the person in Heaven will no longer sin. This change in the state of being effected by God after a person dies involves a sequence, hence it is a process. Moreover, it is a purification since the change removes the inclination to sin. How is this any different than the official Catholic teaching of Purgatory?
(1) Christians who have received the grace of salvation continue to sin. (2) No sin in Heaven. Hence, (3) God effects a change after death. As I understand it, official Catholic teaching is that Purgatory is a purification process after death. It has never been officially defined as a place.
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PRmerger
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MD, just so I know I’m understanding you correctly: are you saying that unless Paul teaches something we are not to believe it? Are you really saying that the entirety of the “manifold wisdom of God” is revealed in the Pauline epistles?
If that is indeed what you are saying–*and I think that is a very, very dangerous position to hold–*then you are going to be called on any doctrine you proclaim which may be Scriptural but is not explicitly held by Paul (and, there are many!)
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JacobG
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The doctrine of Purgatory was a gradual post-apostolic development. Though catholic apologists often cite prayers for the dead as evidence of early belief in purgatory, prayers for the dead are never encouraged in the hundreds of scriptural passages that mention prayer. And even the prayers for the dead that became popular in the early post-apostolic era don’t support Purgatory.
Men like Tertullian and Origen referred to something “resembling” purgatory, but what they believed in was only an early form of the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory, which would still take centuries longer to develop into what it is today. The earliest post-apostolic writers, who predate Tertullian and Origen by about a hundred years or more, had no concept of a Purgatory.
Clement of Rome, the earliest of the church fathers, writes about Peter, Paul, and some deceased Corinthian presbyters being in Heaven.
Papias refers to different degrees of reward in Heaven (1 Corinthians 3:11-15), but says nothing of Christians suffering in Purgatory.
Men like Tertullian and Origen referred to something “resembling” purgatory, but what they believed in was only an early form of the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory, which would still take centuries longer to develop into what it is today. The earliest post-apostolic writers, who predate Tertullian and Origen by about a hundred years or more, had no concept of a Purgatory.
Clement of Rome, the earliest of the church fathers, writes about Peter, Paul, and some deceased Corinthian presbyters being in Heaven.
Papias refers to different degrees of reward in Heaven (1 Corinthians 3:11-15), but says nothing of Christians suffering in Purgatory.
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PRmerger
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Fair enough.
However, all that indicates is that they said nothing about it. Are you saying, similarly to Moondweller with regard to St. Paul, that all Christian beliefs have to be affirmed by the ECFs?
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AwGusTeen
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Genetically altered? Hmmm…I believe that Purgatory is a genitically altered Gospel that Catholic’s have made up. To my Evangelical friends, Good Job in debunking this horrible doctrine.
Code:Peace, Jack
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JustaServant
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We see that “the day” v13, that is judgment day, will disclose a mans works, and fire will test which sort of works and the man will be saved, but only through fire (purgation)
The only way to change this scripture is to say “the day” isn’t the particular judgment day of a man is to eliminate v14 and 15 from scripture and twist around the rest.
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Randy_Carson
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Well, the Word got His DNA from Mary…
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jackregnier
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Try the Holy Spirit, Randy. You said you wanted to diiscuss my beliefs. Where can we do this?Well, the Word got His DNA from Mary…
Peace, Jack
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Randy_Carson
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Jack-
Jesus was fully God and fully man. I have no problem saying that Jesus got the male chromosomes from God since God can create something from nothing. He got his human DNA from Mary - at least the normal part that a woman provided to a child.
As for where we can chat, start a thread and I’ll be there. What topic do you wish to discuss first?
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rinnie
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The teaching magisterium of the RCC says it does exist, not could.
So are we saying here it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it Could be a duck?
Something resembling purgatory? So what are you saying it Could exist?
The teaching magisterium of the RCC says it does exist, not could.
So are we saying here it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it Could be a duck?
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moondweller
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You seem to have a problem with context.
How many times must I show you before you can see it? It’s your unbelief that blinds you.2 Cor 5:6-8 "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him."Can’t get any simpler than that, can it PRM? “Absent from the body” is referring to bodily death. When the true believer dies he is then “home with the Lord.” If you can’t understand the simplicity of this statement then you have a spiritual problem.
That’s true according to the teachings of Rome for Roman Catholics, but not at all true for true believers in Christ according to the Apostle Paul’s teachings preserved for us in theopneustos Scriptures.
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moondweller
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Randy Carson:
It’s true nothing unclean can enter heaven. That’s why the Son incarnated. In order to make purification of sins through the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 1:3b). For instance, Jesus said to Peter at least twice just prior to instructing him to take the gospel the Gentiles:Acts 10:15-16 "Again a voice {came} to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no {longer} consider unholy. This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky."All true believers are called “saints” in the theopneustos Scriptures. It means “holy ones.” They’re holy because they’ve been cleansed and sanctified through faith in Christ (see Acts 26:18)1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:”
Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
1 Cor 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."It’s true nothing unclean will enter heaven, but that’s because every true believer who enters heaven has been washed, sanctified and justified. That means cleansed, set apart and made righteous in Christ.
2 Cor 5:8 "…we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."Every true believer knows that while at home in this body he’s absent from the Lord. But, like Paul, would prefer rather to be absent from the body and be at home with the Lord. You see? Paul knew NOTHING of Catholic Purgatory. Paul preached the cross of Christ where the true believer was, once for all, cleansed of ALL sins by blood.
There’s no room for Catholic Purgatory in the Apostolic gospel of Jesus Christ. Purgatory denies the Divinely revealed truth of the, once for all, cleansing power of the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ on the believer’s behalf. Purgatory’s an added doctrine stemming from and rooted in unbelief. The Scriptures are perfectly clear (Old and New Testaments): God has once for all cleansed the believing sinner by sacrificial blood; and not by the sinner himself but by an obedient Substitute, the Lamb of God. It’s called GRACE. It’s what the whole sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law pointed to and prefigured.
But your “piece by piece” argument is built on sand.
And yet, oddly enough, no such place is revealed in Scripture. Your argument is that since you interpret some verses in Scripture as men praying for the dead, then Purgatory must exists. But even if God did answer a prayer for the life to return to someone who had very recently died, that would not even remotely prove the existence of Catholic Purgatory.
It’s true nothing unclean can enter heaven. That’s why the Son incarnated. In order to make purification of sins through the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 1:3b). For instance, Jesus said to Peter at least twice just prior to instructing him to take the gospel the Gentiles:Acts 10:15-16 "Again a voice {came} to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no {longer} consider unholy. This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky."All true believers are called “saints” in the theopneustos Scriptures. It means “holy ones.” They’re holy because they’ve been cleansed and sanctified through faith in Christ (see Acts 26:18)1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:”
Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
1 Cor 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."It’s true nothing unclean will enter heaven, but that’s because every true believer who enters heaven has been washed, sanctified and justified. That means cleansed, set apart and made righteous in Christ.
Hardly, Randy! He’s stating what every true believer knows and prefers:2 Cor 5:6 "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord–
2 Cor 5:8 "…we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."Every true believer knows that while at home in this body he’s absent from the Lord. But, like Paul, would prefer rather to be absent from the body and be at home with the Lord. You see? Paul knew NOTHING of Catholic Purgatory. Paul preached the cross of Christ where the true believer was, once for all, cleansed of ALL sins by blood.
There’s no room for Catholic Purgatory in the Apostolic gospel of Jesus Christ. Purgatory denies the Divinely revealed truth of the, once for all, cleansing power of the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ on the believer’s behalf. Purgatory’s an added doctrine stemming from and rooted in unbelief. The Scriptures are perfectly clear (Old and New Testaments): God has once for all cleansed the believing sinner by sacrificial blood; and not by the sinner himself but by an obedient Substitute, the Lamb of God. It’s called GRACE. It’s what the whole sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law pointed to and prefigured.
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moondweller
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I did answer it, rinnie. Read my posts. I’m not going to repeat an answer. But what does the resuscitation of a dead man have to do with proving the tormenting fires of Catholic Purgatory?
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moondweller
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Randy Carson said:
Randy, there were and still are consequences in life for sin. Such as Adam bringing condemnation, judgment and death to his posterity, and his and Eve’s expulsion from the Garden. As a norm one will experience natural or lawful consequences for committing sins. And Scripture recognizes and records many such consequences. But it does not recognize the uniquely Catholic doctrine of “temporal punishment” with its Purgatorial consequences. That doctrine militates against the cross of Christ and the glorious grace of God.
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moondweller
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(1) You’re wrong on “Ultimate Sanctification” being a process. (2) Neither experiential sanctification or ultimate sanctification are about “cleansing” or “purging” the true believer of sins. (3) The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, however, IS about “cleansing” or “purging” of sins. Denying the revealed truth that Christ Himself made purification of sins, once for all, via His substitutionary blood sacrifice (Heb. 1:3b). Nowhere is it revealed that men are ever cleansed of sins by fire. PLEASE don’t refer to 1 Cor. 3:8-15. The fire there is figurative for Divine appraisal and will reveal the quality of a Christian worker’s WORKS for reward or loss thereof. It has nothing to do with cleansing sins or Catholic Purgatory. God dealt with our sins, once for all, with BLOOD, sacrificial blood. No need for fire.
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moondweller
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Everything we need to know about “the faith” (this side of the cross) was recorded and preserved in the theopneustos, N.T. Scriptures. ALL that we need to know, doctrinally, about the cross of Christ and the church He’s presently building, through the Holy Spirit, while sitting at the right hand of the Majesty on High, is found in the Epistles. They explain the true believer’s redemption through the sacrificial work and death of Christ on the cross, and his eternal, new identity in the RISEN Christ. IOW, the Epistles reveal to us all aspects of the true believer’s Divine salvation. All that which sounds like foolishness to the natural man (psuchikos).
What is revealed in the N.T. Epistles (especially Pauline, Eph. 3:1-3) is insight “into the mystery of Christ”:Eph 3:8-12 “To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly {places.} {This was} in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.”
Paul wrote most of the Epistles, and in them contain the doctrines pertaining to salvation and the church Christ is presently building through the Holy Spirit. IOW, they contain the doctrines pertaining to this church age.
If you care to read it, you might find this article interesting.
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adriancombe
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Moondweller:
This is a common protestant inference. It is invalid based on the text, and incompatible with the rest of Scripture. Here is what Paul wrote (your translation):
*Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord
Current state:
Absent from Lord + home in the body
Desired state:
Absent from Body + home with the Lord
From this, many protestants, with no clear train of thought, assume he means that to be away from the body means to be home with the Lord! Amazing! But completely unwarranted. This will become obvious if I make simple substitutions. Let’s say I am a kid in school. While I am present (‘at home’) in school, I am absent from home. I would prefer the inverse state: to be absent from school and be at home in my house.
Current state:
Absent from house + ‘at home’ in school
Desired state
Absent from school + at home at my house
Therefore, following the Protestant logic:
To be away from school is to be at my house. You see the problem. You are assuming he meant there are only two states. What he said is he would like to leave state one and arrive at state 2. He never said to leave state 1 is to enter state 2. In your world, as soon as the kid walks away from the school, he magically appears at home - and he can never be anywhere else. This is why it is important to carefully read what is written and be aware of your own biases, to avoid the pitfall of eisegesis.
You see*
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