purgatory

[adriancombe]

Everything we need to know about “the faith” (this side of the cross) was recorded and preserved in the theopneustos, N.T. Scriptures.

Good! Please direct me to the chapter and verse that tells me which books should be in the Bible. I am especially interested in the ones that indicate whether to include the deuterocanonicals, not to mention those works specific to the Ethiopian canon, e.g. the Sinodos, the Book of the Covenant and the Didascalia.

 

[PRmerger]

You seem to have a problem with context.

I think I’m just pointing out your inconsistencies. When Paul doesn’t preach a doctrine you don’t believe in, you proclaim:

Orignially posted by moondweller: it would have been revealed to him and he would have revealed it, via the Scriptures, to the church. But he teaches NOTHING on it.

Yet, you don’t apply that to doctrines you accept that Paul also makes no mention of.

Inconsistent!

How many times must I show you before you can see it? It’s your unbelief that blinds you.2 Cor 5:6-8 "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him."Can’t get any simpler than that, can it PRM? “Absent from the body” is referring to bodily death. When the true believer dies he is then “home with the Lord.” If you can’t understand the simplicity of this statement then you have a spiritual problem.That’s true according to the teachings of Rome for Roman Catholics, but not at all true for true believers in Christ according to the Apostle Paul’s teachings preserved for us in theopneustos Scriptures.

Ok. I think from now on, though, you won’t cite that verse incorrectly, as you’ve done in the past (I’m guessing it was only from ignorance, yes? You simply heard a fallible preacher teach that verse and assumed he’d been quoting it correctly?) Next time you use it you’ll remember to include the words, from Scripture, that say “prefer” or “willing”.

To do otherwise would be dishonest, now that the correct passage has been shown to you. “…but as it is they have no excuse for their sin”.( John 15:22).

 

[rinnie]

I did answer it, rinnie. Read my posts. I’m not going to repeat an answer. But what does the resuscitation of a dead man have to do with proving the tormenting fires of Catholic Purgatory?

Really simple md. Alot. Do you agree that the man was dead? If you do you agree with prayers for the dead. Do you agree that a miracle happened? Did someone dead come back to life?

Now if you agree with the prayers, and the man was indeed dead, you can read scripture with your own eyes that we can and do pray for the dead. Then that point was proven to you.

THere were prayers for the dead in the O.T and now You have been shown prayers for the dead in the N.T.

Now before we go any further do you accept the miracle, or reject it?

 

[clmowry]

But what does the resuscitation of a dead man have to do with proving the tormenting fires of Catholic Purgatory?

So do you believe Paul prayed for a dead man and he was miraculously raised by God, or do you feel he just used CPR?

Chuck

 

[moondweller]

Therefore, following the Protestant logic:

To be away from school is to be at my house. You see the problem. You are assuming he meant there are only two states. What he said is he would like to leave state one and arrive at state 2. He never said to leave state 1 is to enter state 2. In your world, as soon as the kid walks away from the school, he magically appears at home - and he can never be anywhere else. This is why it is important to carefully read what is written and be aware of your own biases, to avoid the pitfall of eisegesis.

You see

Actually, you’re the one who is attempting to commit the eisegesis. Paul speaks of ONLY TWO places: “at home in the body,” or “at home with the Lord.” There is no third of which Paul speaks. The conclusion that one is either at home in the body or at home with the Lord is based strictly on exegesis. The “pitfall of eisegesis” is yours. It’s what Catholic Purgatory is based on.

For instance, it is being argued here that a prayer is said to resuscitate someone back from the dead and that prayer is suppose to somehow lead to the conclusion of the existence of Purgatory. Ain’t gonna happen.

 

[moondweller]

Ok. I think from now on, though, you won’t cite that verse incorrectly, as you’ve done in the past (I’m guessing it was only from ignorance, yes? You simply heard a fallible preacher teach that verse and assumed he’d been quoting it correctly?) Next time you use it you’ll remember to include the words, from Scripture, that say “prefer” or “willing”.

To do otherwise would be dishonest, now that the correct passage has been shown to you. “…but as it is they have no excuse for their sin”.( John 15:22).

I have never cited that verse incorrectly. Several times now I’ve EXPLAINED that verse to you, not changed it. In that verse Paul cites only two places for the believer: either (1) at home in the body and therefore absent from the Lord, or (2) absent from the body and at home with the Lord. According to Paul and that theopneustos Scripture, no third place exists for the true believer. Neither there or any other place in Scripture. Catholic Purgatory is an extrabiblical doctrine. It’s not God’s Word, it’s Rome’s.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You seem to have a problem with context.How many times must I show you before you can see it? It’s your unbelief that blinds you.
2 Cor 5:6-8 “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.”
Can’t get any simpler than that, can it PRM? “Absent from the body” is referring to bodily death. When the true believer dies he is then “home with the Lord.” If you can’t understand the simplicity of this statement then you have a spiritual problem.That’s true according to the teachings of Rome for Roman Catholics, but not at all true for true believers in Christ according to the Apostle Paul’s teachings preserved for us in theopneustos Scriptures.

Moondweller-

That is a complete misrepresentation of the passage. I have highlighted to relevant phrase in red. Here it is again:

“We…prefer…to be absent from the body…and…at home with the Lord.”

Well, gee, who wouldn’t? I would prefer to be in heaven right now. But Paul does not say, “Dear true believer, be assured that if you ARE absent from the body, then you ARE at home with the Lord.” That’s what you want the passage to say, but Paul is not giving a comprehensive, dogmatic teaching on eschatology here…he is simply stating his desire.

Paul’s statement of preference is not the same thing as saying, “If you are a true believer then you will go immediately to heaven the moment you die.” Paul’s actual words do not preclude the possibility of a temporary passage through purgatory, and there is nothing in Paul’s theology or in all of scripture to preclude the following:

"We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and (after getting a shower and changing into our wedding garments) to be at home with the Lord.

I’m not suggesting that this should be read into the text because it simply is not there, but again, Paul’s statement does not preclude this despite your protestations to the contrary.

 

[Thing]

Paul speaks of ONLY TWO places: .

Jesus speaks of the place where the person will not be released until he repays the very last penny.

I conclude that;

1. This place is not heaven - you owe no debts in heaven, the slate is wiped clean.
2. This place is not hell - for in hell there is no return, release nor relief.
3. This place is not only our lives here on earth as so many Catholics & protestants die suddenly, and while they were in life were obviously not evil & they were equally obviously not saints either.
4. If believers here on earth are all now saints and so are believed free from sin - why did Jesus say that believers would have to repay every last penny before they would be released. Presumably a saint owes nothing and can go straight to heaven. And one who does not go straight to heaven neither goes straight to hell necessarily, as there are those, Jesus said, who would be released, into heaven presumably, but only after repaying all their debts in full in some other place which is neither heaven, hell, nor earth.

 

[moondweller]

Really simple md. Alot. Do you agree that the man was dead?

I do.

If you do you agree with prayers for the dead.

False conclusion.

Do you agree that a miracle happened?

I do.

Did someone dead come back to life?

Yes.

Now if you agree with the prayers, and the man was indeed dead, you can read scripture with your own eyes that we can and do pray for the dead. Then that point was proven to you.

What’s been proven? How many dead people have you “prayed for” and have come back to life? How many Catholics upon returning to life thanked you for getting them out of Purgatory? You’re attempting to present a false conclusion, rinnie.

 

[moondweller]

That’s what you want the passage to say, but Paul is not giving a dogmatic teaching on eschatology here…he is simply stating his desire.

Oh but he is, Randy. You just refuse to believe it.

 

[moondweller]

Jesus speaks of the place where the person will not be released until he repays the very last penny.

I conclude that;

1. This place is not heaven - you owe no debts in heaven, the slate is wiped clean.
2. This place is not hell - for in hell there is no return, release nor relief.
3. This place is not only our lives here on earth as so many Catholics & protestants die suddenly, and while they were in life were obviously not evil & they were equally obviously not saints either.
4. If believers here on earth are all now saints and so are believed free from sin - why did Jesus say that believers would have to repay every last penny before they would be released. Presumably a saint owes nothing and can go straight to heaven. And one who does not go straight to heaven neither goes straight to hell necessarily, as there are those, Jesus said, who would be released, into heaven presumably, but only after repaying all their debts in full in some other place which is neither heaven, hell, nor earth.

So you’re another one who is claiming that your “Purgatory” is a “prison” where Catholics “pay” for their sins. This teaching, of course, is diametrically opposed to God’s Word:Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."Do you see why I contend that your doctrine of Purgatory is not rooted in the Word of God but in unbelief?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Oh but he is, Randy. You just refuse to believe it.

You have not interacted with my post nor with the text.

You want to believe

IF A, then B.

But what Paul actually said is, “I’d prefer B.”

That does nothing to PROVE that if you are DEAD then you MUST be in heaven.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So you’re another one who is claiming that your “Purgatory” is a “prison” where Catholics “pay” for their sins. This teaching, of course, is diametrically opposed to God’s Word:
Col 2:13-14 “When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
Do you see why I contend that your doctrine of Purgatory is not rooted in the Word of God but in unbelief?

Thing used an analogy to try to help you.

Purgatory MIGHT be a place (if heaven is a place), but it might be simply a state of being.

But that was a nice try.

 

[moondweller]

So do you believe Paul prayed for a dead man and he was miraculously raised by God, or do you feel he just used CPR?

Chuck

The question was what does the resuscitation of a dead man have to do with proving the existence of Purgatory? What’s the direct connection?

I said “resuscitation” because “resurrection” has to do with the glorified body. Only the Son of Man has been bodily resurrected. The resurrection of the righteous in Christ is yet to occur.

 

[Thing]

So you’re another one who is claiming that your “Purgatory” is a “prison” where Catholics “pay” for their sins. This teaching, of course, is diametrically opposed to God’s Word:Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."Do you see why I contend that your doctrine of Purgatory is not rooted in the Word of God but in unbelief?

…and the exacter cast thee into prison. 59 I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite. - Luke 12

22 | But I say to you,| that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, | shall be in danger of hell fire.| 23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; 24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift.

25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing. - Matthew 5

A farthing was a quarter of a penny in old English money - I have one somewhere; it signifies that one will be held until the very, very last debt is paid.

 

[moondweller]

You have not interacted with my post nor with the text.

You want to believe

IF A, then B.

But what Paul actually said is, “I’d prefer B.”

That does nothing to PROVE that if you are DEAD then you MUST be in heaven.

The text makes the definite statement that when the true believer dies he is AT HOME WITH THE LORD. The text presents no other options. You’re trying to read in an option which isn’t there - nor anywhere in Scripture, or Paul’s theology. :tiphat:

 

[moondweller]

A farthing was a quarter of a penny in old English money - I have one somewhere; it signifies that one will be held until the very, very last debt is paid.

Again you’re stating that Purgatory is a “prison” where Catholics must “pay” for their sins. Again, such a doctrine is diametrically opposed to the Word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. I provided you with the Scripture. but if your memory is short: Col. 2:13-14. My debt was paid in full by Another.

 

[rinnie]

I do.False conclusion.I do.Yes.What’s been proven? How many dead people have you “prayed for” and have come back to life? How many Catholics upon returning to life thanked you for getting them out of Purgatory? You’re attempting to present a false conclusion, rinnie.

When I see them Md I will let you know. Do you not believe in eternal life. Do you think this is the only life there is?

Purgatory has nothing to do with justification or salvation. Purgatory means you are saved. ITs burning away any self-love remaining in you. Rev. 21:27

The O.T and the N.T. do have doctrine of final purification. Rather you want to admit it or not.

2Sam 12:13-14
2 mac. 12:39-46

Prayers for the dead the bible is full of it
1 cor 15:29 Paul baptises for the dead
2 tim. Paul asks for prayers and mercy on his dead friend
1 Peter Jesus preached to the spirts in prison

Now why would we have to pray for the dead if there is only heaven or hell. Are you saying just because I pray for my family in purgatory God will not listen to my prayers and my prayers cannot become a miracle as pauls did.

Are you saying death separates us from Christ and eachother? Is our God not the God of the living not the dead.

And why does the bible speak of a Cleansing fire, and a eternal fire? Why does luke speak of a Chaff he will burn in unquenchable fire, and Matt talk of eternal punishment.

Why does 1 cor. 3:10 say if someones work is burning up the person will be saved but only throught fire?

So how could this be. Unless there are 2 different kinds of fire. Would you not agree. Eternal and temporal. Or do you not acknowledge hell? You can’t have it both ways you know. But now you explain to me how If someone work is burned up they will be saved? Where is the work being burned up? In hell? That is impossible. Hell is total separation from God for ever.

 

[Thing]

Again you’re stating that Purgatory is a “prison” where Catholics must “pay” for their sins. Again, such a doctrine is diametrically opposed to the Word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. I provided you with the Scripture. but if your memory is short: Col. 2:13-14. My debt was paid in full by Another.

And Jesus Christ just told you that there are people who will not be released until they pay their debt in full. If these people are not saints, according to protestantism, they go to hell; if they *are *saints, according to you, they have no debts and go straight to heaven. Jesus Christ just *here *tells you that there are people who must repay their debts before being released from them.

 

[rinnie]

The question was what does the resuscitation of a dead man have to do with proving the existence of Purgatory? What’s the direct connection?

I said “resuscitation” because “resurrection” has to do with the glorified body. Only the Son of Man has been bodily resurrected. The resurrection of the righteous in Christ is yet to occur.

Simple but you can’t seem to see it. Do you agree that we can pray for the dead, and does scripture prove people prayed for the dead. Yes O.T. and N.T. Now if you agree with that why would we pray for souls in hell, they cannot reach heaven. And why would we pray for souls in heaven they are already there?