purgatory

[paul_c]

I see you’re not understanding what I am saying. Its important to know who the NT writer was speaking to and what the circumstances were.The book of James was addressed to the 12 scattered tribes. It was written when the church was still primarily Jewish and Jews were still trying to hang on to the Law and circumcision, etc. This is a simple church structure. Notice it mentions no bishops or deacons, only elders. This church is still in its teaching phase. What may seem like “preaching to the choir” to us today, was all new to them. James is practical. It reads more like a commentary on the teachings of Christ. Faith and works are mentioned repeatedly, but he presents them not as conflicting, but as complementary. James said faith may be genuine or false. This is what he is trying to teach the brethren. You must remember, what’s obvious to us today, was not to them. The churches were still in infancy. James speaks about those who professed to believe that Jesus was the Christ. He blames respect for outward appearance of persons. They profess faith in the Lord Jesus, and yet act like those in the world. Before salvation, the Jews believed in the efficacy of works. Now some were reacting at the opposite extreme, imagining that works plays no part in the life of the new believer. James retorts that the kind of faith that does not produce works is a spurious faith. But James **never said ** that works justify us before God; for God can see the faith without its works. Abraham had faith and it was declared righteousness. The world couldn’t see this faith, but God did. The world could see Abraham’s faith if they witnessed him raising the knife to Isaac. But God already declared Abraham righteous before he ever raised that knife. So, when the world asks show me what a true christian looks like, this is what James is explaining. A true Christian bears fruit. An unsaved person (i.e. the world) cannot produce the works of the Spirit.

James is talking to believers of the Gospel that were ethnically Jewish, this is true. but James clearly isn’t supporting a Faith only gospel. this is what he says in his first chapter:
22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24 He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25 But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world
James is clear that your faith isn’t real, if you don’t demonstrate it by works. God sees this as well. Its a fallacy to say that God sees Faith without works because as James says in chapter 2. Faith without works is dead! There is no real Faith if works don’t follow.

 

[paul_c]

You say you don’t believe in a works gospel, yet you are depending on a sacramental system, are you not? You depend on your church and the rules and rituals of this church. You believe membership in this church guarantees a ticket to heaven. This is why some of you say they’re not concerned about their salvation. Catholics say they believe they are redeemed by the death of Christ, but at the other side of their mouth they say that Christ merely opened the door to heaven so that God can pour out grace to help you obey this system, and salvation is conditioned on what one does or does not do in the sacramental system.

You were obviously poorly catechised. No Catholic believes that membership in the church guarantees a ticket to heaven. What Catholics DO believe is that there is no salvation outside the Church. If you are saved, it is because of the work of the church (even if you aren’t a member)because without the catholic church, there would be no knowledge of Christ at all. He set up the church to spread the good news and administer the sacraments and it has done so under his protection ever since. And yes, you will be judged on what you do or don;t do. You put all your faith in St. Paul’s epistles, thinking it absolves you from doing anything for salvation on your own behalf. Well, that’s not what Paul taught. Read Romans 2 in its entirety, just once. If you can see through your biases,

Here is what he says in the first 16 verses of romans 2:
Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. 2 For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things. We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
On the day when, **according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus. **What did Christ say in Matt 7 to those who had put their faith in something other than in Him alone, such as religion and works of that religion? “Depart from me! I never knew you!” Some were already calling Him Lord. but would later refuse to accept the completed work of the cross.

What then is the will of the Father mentioned in Matt 7:21? Jesus isn’t speaking of works. He is speaking of ‘will.’

In another place, Jesus said, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40) See the connection. It is possible to speak of Jesus as Lord, but never actually receive Him to yourself as the completer of your salvation. But the people kept saying: but look at all the good works we did in your name! Jesus cast them all out!

Of course God wants you to have faith in his son. Do you honestly things that’s all God wants from you? Didn’t Jesus spend 3 years on earth saying what he wanted from men summed up elegantly by the Great commandment" Love god with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength and all your mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself?" Or are you willing to say that the Sermon on the Mount is irrelevant in terms of what God wills?

We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No where in the Scriptures are we told that our salvation depends on our works. Any works, whether it be all those traditions of the church or whatever. The works we are given to do, are works assigned to us by the Holy Spirit. But these are not salvation works. They are works that glorify our Father. This is James.

It says repeatedly in scriputre that our salvation depends on our works. It also says it is dependent on Faith. Both need to be there. See the above. also see matthew 19:16- 19 and Matthew 25: 31-46. By the way, even you acknowledge that salvation takes more than one thing. You list Grace, Faith and Christ above. You say that three different things are Alone, however, which you know doens’t make sense.

 

[paul_c]

Please show me where Jesus ever gave us a sacramental system? Where did He ever say that a priest, with a victim (Him) and sacrifices was to be repeated until the end of the world.

He sent the Apostles out to Baptize in Matthew 28: 18-20 did he not. That is a sacramental system. He told the disciples that they needed to eat his body and drink his blood and to do this in memory of me at the last supper, did he not? That’s a sacramental system. He taught the disciples how to heal by laying on of hands, did he not? that’s a sacramental system. Do you deny that Marriage is sacred? that’s part of the sacramental system. He told the apostles that whatever sins they forgave would be forgiven didn’t he? That is part of the sacramental system. The laying on of hands for Confirmation and ordination came through the holy spirit on Pentacost. they were not needed during Jesus’ lifetime on earth.

 

[Thing]

Jesus says nothing about preparing oneself for eternal life in Matt. 5:25-26. He does, however in Jn. 3:14-18:"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."Again in Jn. 5:24:"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."It looks to me that Jesus taught that one who has believed in Him HAS eternal life. The only hindrance for receiving this LIFE is unbelief. To not believe the gospel message of what He has DONE, once for all, through His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection.

The Apostle Paul follows through with his teaching on eternal life and states:Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."In context Paul is stating that death came to all of us as a consequence of Adam’s sin. But eternal life is gifted to the believer in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matt. 5:25-26 mentions nothing about eternal life nor one suffering in the flames of purgatory as a payment for not making friends with someone before he goes to court.

You see what I mean that you READ INTO verses your fully formed doctrine, but the verse itself states nothing of the sort?

Not so.

34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if …

Its no idle threat; God does not lie.

We do not just believe once.
We must believe continuously, or else.

 

[moondweller]

Not so.

34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if …

Its no idle threat; God does not lie.

We do not just believe once.
We must believe continuously, or else.

Believe what?

 

[Thing]

Believe what?

Believe everything, obviously, and act on it. Then go the extra mile. Then give away your cloak. etc., etc.

 

[moondweller]

But you stop too soon! If you continue reading the next few versus you get to the crux of the story.

“24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine** and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man **who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

The Protestants I talk to always leave out this part!

Thanks

Actually 7:24 is a new paragraph. But the point He made in vss. 21-23 is that not every one who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom (you also need to know to what “kingdom” He’s referring). Those who called Him “Lord, Lord” did many good works in His name, BUT His response to them was “Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness.” How ironic, wouldn’t you agree? They wanted entrance into the kingdom based on their works, but they were denied because He said “I never knew you.” Being known by Him then is the key to entrance into the kingdom (again, to what “kingdom” does He refer?), not works. If works is not the criterion to be known by Him, what then is, BMW? Do the Scriptures give you any clue at all?

When you say, “Protestants I talk to always leave out this part!”, I must assume you claim to “practice” (act upon) all that He just taught in Matt. 5-7. May I ask you BMW, did it hurt when you gouged out your right eye (5:29)? Has your brain adjusted to it? How about your right hand when you cut it off and threw it from you? I hope you were a lefty by birth. Do you constantly do for others what you want others to do for you? Have you ever failed at that? Do you constantly not judge lest you be judged? Do you continue to notice the “log in your own eye” and remove it?

Yet even after all those works, how do you know that Jesus might not say to you also: “I never knew you?” Is it possible that Jesus wasn’t talking at all about salvation and that salvation itself is based on an entirely different principle. One that gives glory to God and Jesus Christ our Lord and not to men and their fine works? Could it be that you may have actually missed this glorious, Divine principle and the simplicity of it? :doh2:

 

[moondweller]

Believe everything, obviously, and act on it. Then go the extra mile. Then give away your cloak. etc., etc.

That may be your problem, Thing, believing “everything,” and then hoping your works will save you. How many “cloaks” have you given away this year? Is there a “salvation” number? Do you pay for the lack of that quota by pain and suffering in purgatory? - according to your interpretation and application of Matt. 5:25-26.

 

[paul_c]

That may be your problem, Thing, believing “everything,” and then hoping your works will save you. How many “cloaks” have you given away this year? Is there a “salvation” number? Do you pay for the lack of that quota by pain and suffering in purgatory? - according to your interpretation and application of Matt. 5:25-26.

He’s telling you to believe everything Jesus says, not only the parts you agree with. You are quick to accuse Catholics of a works based theology. Actually, what we have is a love based theology. Love god. Love your Nieghbor as yourself. There is no quota on love. When someone needs something, we are called to respond. Do we do it successfully every time? No. But we work at it and try to improve our ability to love day by day.

Tell me, moondweller, Are Christians required to love in your theology? Or is it truly Faith alone? Because you know that St. Paul says in 1corinthians: If I have Faith enough to move mountains but don’t have love, I am nothing…

 

[Thing]

That may be your problem, Thing, believing “everything,” and then hoping your works will save you. How many “cloaks” have you given away this year? Is there a “salvation” number? Do you pay for the lack of that quota by pain and suffering in purgatory? - according to your interpretation and application of Matt. 5:25-26.

Is it your problem that you don’t believe everything you were told?
Give away my cloak? - Get lost dummy!

 

[bmw8901]

Actually 7:24 is a new paragraph. But the point He made in vss. 21-23 is that not every one who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom (you also need to know to what “kingdom” He’s referring). Those who called Him “Lord, Lord” did many good works in His name, BUT His response to them was “Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness.” How ironic, wouldn’t you agree? They wanted entrance into the kingdom based on their works, but they were denied because He said “I never knew you.” Being known by Him then is the key to entrance into the kingdom (again, to what “kingdom” does He refer?), not works. If works is not the criterion to be known by Him, what then is, BMW? Do the Scriptures give you any clue at all?

When you say, “Protestants I talk to always leave out this part!”, I must assume you claim to “practice” (act upon) all that He just taught in Matt. 5-7. May I ask you BMW, did it hurt when you gouged out your right eye (5:29)? Has your brain adjusted to it? How about your right hand when you cut it off and threw it from you? I hope you were a lefty by birth. Do you constantly do for others what you want others to do for you? Have you ever failed at that? Do you constantly not judge lest you be judged? Do you continue to notice the “log in your own eye” and remove it?

Yet even after all those works, how do you know that Jesus might not say to you also: “I never knew you?” Is it possible that Jesus wasn’t talking at all about salvation and that salvation itself is based on an entirely different principle. One that gives glory to God and Jesus Christ our Lord and not to men and their fine works? Could it be that you may have actually missed this glorious, Divine principle and the simplicity of it? :doh2:

You say only “those who know what kingdom he is referring to.” Where do you get this in the text? I think that the fact that Christ says “therefore” in the next paragraph clearly means he was continuing on with His message here. But let’s assue you’re right and stick to versus 21-23.

He says in versus 21: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. That’s action! Not knowing the right kingdom.

The paragraph before talks about bearing good fruit which again is an action. Nothing here about a belief system. So we have the paragraph before, the versus you refer to, and the paragraph after all talking about action and doing.

You say they wanted to Heaven based on their works. Where do you get that? They weren’t doing anything to begin with. That’s why he is condemning them. You ignore the context of the whole chapter to make what you want fit. And I can’t find it anywhere.

You said this: “I must assume you claim to “practice” (act upon) all that He just taught in Matt. 5-7.” Who said I act upon this? You assumed, which a big mistake. I wish I did though. I try to and like many Christians we fall short. Furthermore, I am not judging anyone. We are having a theological discussion about certain versus and I simply disagree. You chide me for for quoting the next paragraph, again with the word that starts with “therefore” which to me, sounds like He is continuing his thought, but than yourself go to another paragraph to say I’m judging others.

I don’t believe in works alone. I don’t think they can save me. I don’t know why you can’t understand this as I have said many times that Christ died for all of our sins and saved us.

Lastly you said, “One that gives glory to God and Jesus Christ our Lord and not to men and their fine works? Could it be that you may have actually missed this glorious, Divine principle and the simplicity of it?” Again, I believe Christ saved us. And I am kind of put off by your condescension here. I am sorry I don’t understand the New Testament as you do. Are we not free to disagree and yet worship Christ anyway?

 

[JacobG]

Catholics can have assurance that they are in a state of Grace if they have not committed any mortal sin that cuts them off from God.

However, Protestants have little to comfort them but their own individual, fallible interpretations of the Word of God, and there is nothing that suggests that these interpretations are correct.

While one group of Protestants is touting “once saved always saved” theology, another group is stating that you can never really be sure who has REAL faith until the end because it might turn out that one is “overcome” by the world at the last minute. I’m just curious, which of these groups is “rightly dividing the word of God” and which is wrongly dividing it? They can’t both be right—yet both claim scripture as their sole rule of faith. So much for the doctrine of sola scriptura.

When Catholics speak of mortal sin, OSAS Protestants will begin screaming about how “wrong” Catholics are to hold that someone could live a good life according to the Word of God and still lose out on salvation because they are not in a state of grace due to mortal sin at the time of their death. Yet, other Protestants will declare that if one is “overcome” by the world and does not persevere (in what? good works?) to the end, that is evidence that one does not have saving faith to being with!

This is the treadmill they are on—and then they condemn Catholics because they mistakenly believe Catholics think they can earn their way into heaven! They attribute this false idea to Catholics because many of them are actually attempting to do that very thing themselves!
So, have you been saved, brother? And how can you know for sure?

Where does the Scriptures make any distinction between venial and mortal sins? This is catholic invention.

Catholicism distinguishes between venial sins-- sins that are not so serious that they involve the destruction of justifying grace-- and mortal sins, which are sins so serious that the grace of Justification can be destroyed within man. If a man commits a mortal sin and destroys his Justification, in order for him to regain it, Catholicism teaches he must come via the Sacrament of Penance, which involves confession, absolution, and satisfaction. Where is all this in our Holy Bible? And you want to talk about protestants being on a treadmill!

For non catholic Christians, Justification depends solely on Christ’s meritorious life and atoning death and not upon anything which a man can do, a man could not lose his Justification. Since Christ has already lived a perfect life and died to pay for all of man’s sins, nothing will ever change what Christ did which is the basis of a man’s Justification. Therefore, once a person believes in Christ, he or she is secure. Because salvation is totally a gift from God based on Christ’s atoning death for us, while believing in Christ, the total number of good or bad deeds a person does will not change this gift from God.

Catholics believe their Justification depends on their works co-operating with Christ. They are taught that because a man cannot know his own heart, and because he is subject to many temptations, a man may commit a variety of mortal sins, any one of which could destroy his Justification. That is why the Council of Trent stated, “Each one, when he regards himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.” So for Catholicism, a man can lose his Justification and can’t be sure he will someday be in heaven.

If you don’t believe you can work your way to the entrance of heaven, then why do you depend upon your church’s 7 sacramental system? Penances, prayers to and for the dead, asking your priest for absolution, masses said, charity works, rosary, indulgences, etc etc. If you were to stop doing all these things, what do you believe will happen to you if you died? Like others keep telling you, You haven’t dealt with any of your sins. You’re still working on them, praying that you won’t die right after you commit some mortal sin. I guess Jesus didn’t pay for your sins, did he? He didn’t nail any of them to the Cross did he? Did Christ, or did he not, fully redeem you?

Our OSAS friends are in a difficult situation for they cannot know for sure right now if they REALLY have that saving faith or not, and they won’t know this side of heaven. They realize (or should, if they are honest) that they could be overcome at some point in the future…perhaps their time of testing has not yet come.This uncertainty is what drives much of the “good works” of Protestantism—the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They do these things, in part, to give evidence that they have saving faith that perseveres to the end.

You show no understanding of what Biblical Christians believe. What you are describing are the mormons and JWs who believe works save them. Besides, what have you got against evangelizing, giving money in church and missionary work? Isn’t this what the scripture teaches? Nor do you understand what sola scriptura means.

Sola Scriptura is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge, religious or otherwise.
Sola Scriptura is not a denial of the Church’s authority to teach God’s truth.
Sola Scriptura does not deny that God’s Word has been spoken as well as written.
Sola Scriptura does not imply rejection of every kind or form of ‘tradition.’
Sola Scriptura does not deny the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding and teaching the Church.

If you want to discuss sola scriptura, I’d be happy to.

 

[paul_c]

Actually 7:24 is a new paragraph. But the point He made in vss. 21-23 is that not every one who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom (you also need to know to what “kingdom” He’s referring). Those who called Him “Lord, Lord” did many good works in His name, BUT His response to them was “Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness.” How ironic, wouldn’t you agree? They wanted entrance into the kingdom based on their works, but they were denied because He said “I never knew you.” Being known by Him then is the key to entrance into the kingdom (again, to what “kingdom” does He refer?), not works. If works is not the criterion to be known by Him, what then is, BMW? Do the Scriptures give you any clue at all?

When you say, “Protestants I talk to always leave out this part!”, I must assume you claim to “practice” (act upon) all that He just taught in Matt. 5-7. May I ask you BMW, did it hurt when you gouged out your right eye (5:29)? Has your brain adjusted to it? How about your right hand when you cut it off and threw it from you? I hope you were a lefty by birth. Do you constantly do for others what you want others to do for you? Have you ever failed at that? Do you constantly not judge lest you be judged? Do you continue to notice the “log in your own eye” and remove it?

Yet even after all those works, how do you know that Jesus might not say to you also: “I never knew you?” Is it possible that Jesus wasn’t talking at all about salvation and that salvation itself is based on an entirely different principle. One that gives glory to God and Jesus Christ our Lord and not to men and their fine works? Could it be that you may have actually missed this glorious, Divine principle and the simplicity of it? :doh2:

Moondweller, I am so happy you brought up the Sermon on the Mount, the most comprehensive scriptural account of Jesu’s actual moral teaching. Has it never occurred to you that this Sermon, taken as a whole, is a complete repudiation of Sola Fide and OSAS. After all, why would Jesus spend all this effort in teaching how to live a moral life if it didn’t matter (and lets face it, if it doesn’t effect salvation, it doesn’t matter).

Furthermore, lets review what he says at the end of the sermon (chapter 7):
12 Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets.
Pretty simple, right: This is what we are called to do.
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
Seems clear that getting to heaven requires some work, because few attain it.

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
So this section warns about false prophets. It tells you that they can be identified by their fruits, which must be understood as what they do. Further, if you don’t bear good frui, you will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
Again, this section talks about the need to take action. Saying Lord, Lord is not enough. You must DO the will of God. And if you do mighty deeds in Jesus’ name , but are also an EVIL doer, you will be condemned and sent away.

24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”

Again, Jesus calls on us ot follow him, acting on the words of this sermon. If we do, we will be on solid ground. But if we hear his words and still don’t take action, we will be completely ruined.

So you see, Moondweller. Salvation is not by Faith alone. We must put our faith into action. This is not an affont to Jesus, It is doing his will.

 

[bmw8901]

Moondweller, I have kind of a personal question for you and I don’t mean to be offensive as much as, I am just curious about something.

For me, I struggle a lot with these issues. I can see good points in both side’s theology. It’s very hard. I’ve already posted a couple times on why and my line of thinking as to why I struggle so I won’t go into that here. I go back and forth and sometimes and have doubts.

Do you ever doubt? Do you ever really, really examine your faith? I’m looking for an honest answer here and in no way trying to mock you. I know you could give me a standard litany of verses siding the assurance you have. But let’s look at this from a different perspective.

A leap of faith is just that. I mean we have all of these believes but we don’t know 100% if God exists. Are their times you ever think, “Am I right about all of this stuff?” Being stuck in doubt constantly isn’t good either, but sometimes, I think we all do. I wonder these things all of the time.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where does the Scriptures make any distinction between venial and mortal sins? This is catholic invention.

Sin that is Mortal Proved from Scripture

---

1 John 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Common sense tells us that there is a big difference between stealing a paperclip from a colleague’s desk and committing genocide. Yet the Protestant pretends that they are equally heinous and equally deserving of eternal damnation. This creates a false piety. Instead of making all sins more serious, it actually trivializes the most grievous sins. After all “In for a penny, in for a pound.” If I am damned anyway for trivia, I might as well be damned for something really juicy. That’s human nature!

Protestants also do not realize how unbiblical their idea that all sin is equally heinous is. We have the quotation from St. John given above which should have been proof enough, but there is more. If all sins are equally bad then in the OT the penalty for every sin would have been the same: DEATH. Instead, the Old Testament describes several ways of atoning for sins and making things right that demonstrate there are different degrees of sin. Only the most heinous sins such as murder or apostasy require the death penalty.

So once again, by using purely man-made standards, the Protestant makes void the word of God.

John 19:11
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”

If there is a “greater” sin, then there must be a “lesser” sin, also.

If you want to discuss sola scriptura, I’d be happy to.

No, you really DON’T want to discuss sola scriptura with me.

 

[bmw8901]

Moondweller, I have kind of a personal question for you and I don’t mean to be offensive as much as, I am just curious about something.

For me, I struggle a lot with these issues. I can see good points in both side’s theology. It’s very hard. I’ve already posted a couple times on why and my line of thinking as to why I struggle so I won’t go into that here. I go back and forth and sometimes and have doubts.

Do you ever doubt? Do you ever really, really examine your faith? I’m looking for an honest answer here and in no way trying to mock you. I know you could give me a standard litany of verses siding the assurance you have. But let’s look at this from a different perspective.

A leap of faith is just that. I mean we have all of these believes but we don’t know 100% if God exists. Are their times you ever think, “Am I right about all of this stuff?” Being stuck in doubt constantly isn’t good either, but sometimes, I think we all do. I wonder these things all of the time.

I guess my point here is this whole dialogue may be futile. I’m willing to change my mind if you can make a good argument. Are you willing to be open to truth if someone makes similar points with proper argumentation?

 

[paul_c]

I guess my point here is this whole dialogue may be futile. I’m willing to change my mind if you can make a good argument. Are you willing to be open to truth if someone makes similar points with proper argumentation?

BMW:
I have a question for you along the same lines. Do you feel the theology espoused here by Moondweller and Yankee Drifter makes any sense at all? How can a whole life worth of actions be inconsequential in terms of salvation? Since when is anything completely meaningless? And how can our sins be of no consequence in the economy of salvation?

I know its compelling to believe that God will take care of us and forgive us for anything we do and that heaven is in all of our destinies. But, you know, this is counter to our life experience. Some kids get everything they want from their parents and are rescued from any and all trouble they get into. How do those kids turn out? Do you think they are actually happy with their lives? Aren’t the most well adjusted adults also generally the ones whose parent’s held them accountable for their actions and had high expectations for them?

God is the perfect parent. He gives us what we need, which is not always what we want. He tells us what is expected and he holds us accountable for it, praising us when we do well and punishing us when we fail to meet expectations. And most of all, he loves us perfectly and even if we leave him through sin, he will accept us back if we choose to come back…

This is born out over and over again in scripture. In every Gospel and in every epistle there is a section on living the Christian life. Why would that be if all that was required for slavation was Faith?

 

[bmw8901]

Good question. My point on Protestant vs. Catholic theology was that on some issues I tend to agree with Catholics and others I lean more towards Protestants. Marian theology is one issue I disagree with Catholics on. Sola Fide is one issue I’m leaning toward Catholic teaching on.

I’m a bit on the fence with it though. I guess the main reason is because I’ve been told by a lot of Protestants and a pastor that I’m no longer a “true Christian” if I don’t believe in Sola Fide, that I’m worshiping another Christ. I know it’s a cheap shot and that they don’t have a monopoly on Christ or His teachings, but I don’t want to discount myself from Heaven because I didn’t believe the right thing.

BMW:
I have a question for you along the same lines. Do you feel the theology espoused here by Moondweller and Yankee Drifter makes any sense at all? How can a whole life worth of actions be inconsequential in terms of salvation? Since when is anything completely meaningless? And how can our sins be of no consequence in the economy of salvation?

I know its compelling to believe that God will take care of us and forgive us for anything we do and that heaven is in all of our destinies. But, you know, this is counter to our life experience. Some kids get everything they want from their parents and are rescued from any and all trouble they get into. How do those kids turn out? Do you think they are actually happy with their lives? Aren’t the most well adjusted s also generally the ones whose parent’s held them accountable for their actions and had high expectations for them?

God is the perfect parent. He gives us what we need, which is not always what we want. He tells us what is expected and he holds us accountable for it, praising us when we do well and punishing us when we fail to meet expectations. And most of all, he loves us perfectly and even if we leave him through sin, he will accept us back if we choose to come back…

This is born out over and over again in scripture. In every Gospel and in every epistle there is a section on living the Christian life. Why would that be if all that was required for slavation was Faith?

 

[paul_c]

Good question. My point on Protestant vs. Catholic theology was that on some issues I tend to agree with Catholics and others I lean more towards Protestants. Marian theology is one issue I disagree with Catholics on. Sola Fide is one issue I’m leaning toward Catholic teaching on.

I’m a bit on the fence with it though. I guess the main reason is because I’ve been told by a lot of Protestants and a pastor that I’m no longer a “true Christian” if I don’t believe in Sola Fide, that I’m worshiping another Christ. I know it’s a cheap shot and that they don’t have a monopoly on Christ or His teachings, but I don’t want to discount myself from Heaven because I didn’t believe the right thing.

BMW:
Isn’t it interesting that those that say that all you need to gain heaven is to have faith in Jesus would try to condemn you actually following Christ in wanting to live out that faith through good works. Don’t worry about your soul if you abandon Sola Fide. It is a man made theological construct that is in direct conflict with Scripture… Yes, you need Faith, but not Faith ALONE. Check your bible. Matthew 19: 16-21:
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
And when you finish that, consider James 2, which is a direct answer to Sola Fide:

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I know it must be very difficult for you to go against your friends and your pastor on this. Just follow the Spirit, who will lead you to all truth . Like many, many before you, the Spirit has led you here for a reason.

One last thought. There is no Marian theology in Catholicism. Mary is not divine. You do not need to pray to her, nor do you need to ask for her intercession. That said, Mary does have a unique place in human history as the one person chosen out of all humanity to be the mother of Jesus Christ, the son of God. As we are told in Luke, she was full of Grace prior to answering the Archangel in the affirmative, when asked whether she would accept bing the mother of God. To be full of Grace, she had to be born without original sin - The only human since Adam and Eve to be given that grace. This was necessary because God deserved a pure vessel for his birth. She was also unique in having a virgin birth. I assume you accept that.

Now as a Catholic, you do not need to ask Mary’s intercession on anything. You can go directly to any of the three persons of the Trinity as you will. However, we Catholics recognize that Mary has a special relationship with her son and that she has interceded with him in the past. If you remember, it was at Mary’s instigation that Jesus did his first miracle: the turning of water into wine at the Wedding in Cana. We believe that all of church, past and present can help each other through prayer. This is the communion of Saints we talk about in the Apostle’s creed. And so while you don’t need to ask for Mary’s intercession if it makes you uncomfortable, it is an appealing option to many. Remember, it was thorugh Mary that Jesus came into the world. She does not want to stand between him and us and should never be pictured as a stumbling block. Instead, she is a willing advocate for us with her son, for those that care to ask…

 

[yankee_drifter]

As are you since you weren’t there 2,000 years ago, either.

Okay. Let’s go…

Nothing about infant baptism there. Next.

Are you personally familiar with this book? Have you read it? This is more Internet cut-and-paste rubbish. Here is the full citation:

“Ecclesiastical custom with regard to the administration of Baptism has undergone a change in the course of history. Whereas the early Church baptized adults only, the baptism of children soon became the usual practice.” (Sanford, Alexander E., MD, Pastoral Medicine: Handbook for the Catholic Clergy, 1904, p 32-33)

This is a “Catholic source”? Does Dr. Sanford speak for the Catholic Church or have any Church authority whasoever? Nope. Next.

The Catholic Church did practice immersion at one time AND STILL DOES. Three forms of baptism are valid: immersion, pouring and sprinkling. Can you prove from the Bible alone that those who were baptized were not baptized by sprinkling or pouring? Where, for example, was the Philippian jailer baptized? IN THE JAIL AT MIDNIGHT? Not in a pool or river. Paul poured some water over his head…and the heads of all his household…kids included.

Although Latin-rite Catholics are usually baptized by infusion (pouring), they know that immersion (dunking) and sprinkling are also valid ways to baptize. Fundamentalists, however, regard only baptism by immersion as true baptism, concluding that most Catholics are not validly baptized at all.

n others after Pentecost, explicitly identifying these events with the promise of being “baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 11:15–17). These passages demonstrate that the meaning of baptizo is broad enough to include “pouring.”

(cont.)

As are you since you weren’t there 2,000 years ago, either

Randy are you for real. This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard! Then you might as well throw out everything you believe because you weren’t there either and neither was your church.

anyway, this is about purgatory, we are being warned to stick with the topic or else. So start a new thread if you want.:juggle: