purgatory

[bmw8901]

Actually, that’s not true. The story about the Samaritan man was in response to the lawyer asking Jesus who his neighbor was (see Lk. 10:25-37).

Please read my whole post before replying. Try refraining from the line by line refutation where you miss the larger points.

Ignoring the doctrine of Purgatory for a second, I am surprised how you continually completely miss the point and bend Scriptures from their original meaning. Are you doing this on purpose or is it by ?

I am honestly asking you this and it is not an attack. Please don’t respond with a thread saying, “Catholics bend and distort Scriptures all the time, just look at Mary, the Pope, salvation, etc.” I just don’t know if an honest conversation with you is possible. Are you really seeking the truth or have you chosen a denomination and try to make your theology fit. Again, please don’t respond with another Catholic complaint. I’m looking for some introspection on your part.

When I first looked at your post, I looked up the story of the Good Samaritan and saw this as the first verse: "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” How do you miss this point, turn the story to mean it is only exclusively about who your neighbor is and ignore everything else?

Are you really being honest to yourself in your reading of the Bible and your theology? Please don’t respond with some attack about Catholics say, “Catholics are the ones who are not honest in THEIR theology, etc.” If you’re not being honest in your reading of the Scriptures and what you believe, you are only cheating yourself. God can see through all of our vain attempts and pure into the core of us. I think a small part of you knows what you are doing. You might not admit it, or think about it, or let it out in the light of day, but a small part somewhere in the back of your mind really thinks about these things and is challenging you. Keep in mind, I’m not insulting you, we all do this to some extent. But to blatantly miss the point of the story of the Good Samaritan really, really surprised me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Christians deny the doctrine of Purgatory because of their unbelief.

They do not believe the words of Jesus when He said that He would give His own authority to the Church that He would build upon Peter the rock. They do not believe that Jesus has protected that Church from error in its teaching. They do not believe that the Holy Spirit has led that Chruch into all truth. Thus, when the Church infallibly declares the existence of purgatory by virtue of its own God-given authority, they do not believe that it is true doctrine.

They also do not believe in one of two things: "1) the depth and destructiveness and dehumanization of sin in our souls (cf. 1 Jn 1:8) or 2) the perfection and purity of the soul that can endure the vision of God face to face. For the gap between these two things is enormous. That is why our God is a “consuming fire” (Heb. 12:29). If you really think that you, as you now are, can just sashay into full heaven at death, sit down at the banquet table with the saints and endure and enjoy conversation with Almighty God, the God whose own word says that no man can see His face and live, then you are either already a completed and perfected saint, or, more likely, you only think you are. In which case, you have almost no idea what a perfected saint is.

 

[Des]

My preference is to posit that all sin (mortal and venial) is forgiven before we die, leaving only the temporal punishment due to sin, (mortal and venial) for purgatory to purify.

Ambrose. Where has the Church explicitly taught that all of our sins are automatically washed away without any sort of Confession before we die? It’s true we don’t need to confess our venial sins to a Priest but I’m pretty sure we still need to ask for forgiveness to God just like we do at the start of every Mass. And if we don’t, then I’d assume they’d still be on our souls after we die.

 

[brb2]

“Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”[/indent]Not “today you shall be in Purgatory, and I’ll see you after that.” And He said that to the thief because he expressed belief in Him.

While here on earth all the Catholic has to do is confess his sins, do some kind of penance

As we believe & Vatican documents discuss : our INITIAL justification/baptism/rebirth EXPUNGES all PAST sins. We are totally clean of effects of original & personal sins.

This is why Christ could promise the thief he was headed straight to Paradise. Purgatory has no place for the Christian … until later on [in cases of life’s unconfessed post-baptismal sins]. And, as the Church teaches … if we continue to utilize the NORMATIVE means of cleansing our post-baptismal sins [frequent confession directly to Christ &/or thru confession to his Priests] ---- we are purged of ill effects of sin, and graced with total forgiveness [post-baptismal sins are also purged via blood of cross, not our works of legalism].

Don’t get hung up on penance ! We don’t “work our way” to heaven via penance. Christ [or his Priests] forgive first, and thereafter we demonstrate our appreciation for his forgiveness by experiencing suffering [learning to take up our crosses] in OBEDIENCE. Purgatory is only needed if we neglect to confess venial sins, or believe as you that post-baptismal confession is not required. Just make sure you don’t commit a mortal sin … and fail to confess it :sad_yes:

The Prodigal Son parable is about Confession/Restoration of a lost son [believer] … who Christ rescues from near Apostasy. The P-Son won’t need to do Purgatory for his mistakes … since he fully confessed to Father God for them. But, he certainly ‘suffered’ in his life for them … and grew to learn OBEDIENCE.

You try to make everything an Either / Or matter. Scripture doesn’t support your disconnected ideas. You need to merge your ideas of Justification by Faith with the scriptural teachings on Post-Baptismal sin … and realize the proper BOTH understanding [on Salvation]. Life isn’t over as quickly for most of us … as it was for the ‘good’ thief !!! Scripture has to account for both situations.

 

[moondweller]

“Do this and you will live.”

“Go and do likewise.”

Do? That certainly smacks of “works”, doesn’t it?

But the lawyer couldn’t do it, could he? And Jesus proved it to him with the story of the Samaritan. The lawyer had to find another source for eternal life other than the Law (certainly not himself). Did he turn to Christ? Who knows? But the Divine teaching concerning the Law and eternal life is this:Gal. 3;21-22 “For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

1 John 5:11 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is (in the Law? NO!) in His Son.”

 

[moondweller]

But to blatantly miss the point of the story of the Good Samaritan really, really surprised me.

I really, really think you’re missing the point Jesus was making to the Jewish lawyer. My only hope is, unlike you (and the others on this thread) he “got it” and humbly turned to Christ and believed in Him for eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24).

 

[Randy_Carson]

But the lawyer couldn’t do it, could he? And Jesus proved it to him with the story of the Samaritan. The lawyer had to find another source for eternal life other than the Law (certainly not himself). Did he turn to Christ? Who knows? But the Divine teaching concerning the Law and eternal life is this:
Gal. 3;21-22 “For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

1 John 5:11 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is (in the Law? NO!) in His Son.”

I’m not sure I follow you.

The lawyer asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus did not say, “Accept me as your personal lord and savior.” Instead, Jesus told the lawyer what to do. The lawyer asked a clarifying question (seeking to avoid some of the obvious meaning of Jesus’ words).

Jesus then told the story of the Good Samaritan and said again, “GO AND DO LIKEWISE.”

So, where exactly does the Bible say that the Lawyer did not go and do just as he had been told?

 

[grannymh]

Don’t get hung up on penance ! We don’t “work our way” to heaven via penance. Christ [or his Priests] forgive first, and thereafter we demonstrate our appreciation for his forgiveness by experiencing suffering [learning to take up our crosses] in OBEDIENCE. Purgatory is only needed if we neglect to confess venial sins, or believe as you that post-baptismal confession is not required. Just make sure you don’t commit a mortal sin … and fail to confess it :sad_yes:

The Prodigal Son parable is about Confession/Restoration of a lost son [believer] … who Christ rescues from near Apostasy. The P-Son won’t need to do Purgatory for his mistakes … since he fully confessed to Father God for them. But, he certainly ‘suffered’ in his life for them … and grew to learn OBEDIENCE.

.

Pardon me. The Prodigal Son would have to “do Purgatory”. The problem with the above is that there is confusion between guilt and liability. By the way, Purgatory is used for cases of confessed mortal sin. But first you have to forget those “Hail Mary, Our Father, Confession” jokes. And then learn about real sin.

Just as sickness debilitates our body, the remains of sin weaken our spiritual life and prevent our soul from being totally open to God. Pope John Paul II has referred to temporal punishment as “medicine” that challenges us to a profound conversion of our hearts in this life. Purgatory is also referred to as temporal punishment which helps free our souls from attachments to material earth and the venial and mortal sins there. Thus, our love for God becomes completely pure.

We can’t wiggle out of the fact that sin has left us with an imperfect relationship with God which needs to be repaired in Purgatory, unless we worked our way to heaven through acts of penance on earth. Those who don’t do penance, prayer, fasting, acts of charity, etc. do have Purgatory as a back-up.

I do realize that you put obedience in capital letters a couple of times. Obedience should be part of the territory. Lack of obedience is sin. And of course we can specifically offer up our suffering with joy. If we say extra prayers in spite of our suffering or perform an act of charity in spite of our suffering, then that can become the recompence needed.

God’s loving forgiveness for the now obedient Prodigal Son does not rule out the liability for temporal punishment (lasting a limited time) which is to be understood as merciful justice.

For information about Catholic teaching on Purgatory, please read Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, Purgatory, paragraphs 1030-1032;
Communion of Saints, paragraphs 1474-1477;
The Punishments of Sin, paragraphs1472-1473.

For information about how sin wounds our human nature and injures human solidarity,
please read paragraphs 386-421 & 1849-1876.

This is a link to the Catechism www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.

 

[Dominicanis]

But the lawyer couldn’t do it, could he? And Jesus proved it to him with the story of the Samaritan. The lawyer had to find another source for eternal life other than the Law (certainly not himself). Did he turn to Christ? Who knows? But the Divine teaching concerning the Law and eternal life is this:Gal. 3;21-22 “For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

1 John 5:11 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is (in the Law? NO!) in His Son.”

The scholar of the law asked Christ what he must do to inherit eternal life. Our Lord asked him what was written in the Law. The scholar summed it up perfectly and was told to do what he said and he would live. When the scholar pressed Him for more details, Christ then told the parable that showed him that mercy was a necessary part of obtaining eternal life. Faith is necessary, but faith doing something merciful is shown as what one must do to obtain eternal life by loving God and neighbor. Christ told him this Himself.

Remember, Christ also said about the Law: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” [Matthew 5:17-19]

The Law in and of itself cannot save, yet adherence to it is promised by Christ to save and to grant someone a place in the kingdom of Heaven. Does one part of Scripture contradict another? Or is it possible that Christ is telling us that the Law and the Gospel are not opposed to one another but work in conjunction to lead some of the chosen people to Him, that the Law prepared the hearts of the Jews who kept it (as Christ said it had to be kept) to accept Him as their Messiah?

What of the condemnations that the Apostles make about the Law? They are condemning those who claimed that Christians had to first become Jews in order to be baptized. The council meeting at Jerusalem had condemned that teaching and said that the Gentiles were exempt from keeping the Mosaic Law. Yet, some tried to teach it and the Apostles had to stress that the Law was only preparation for the Gospel and could not replace it. This is still Catholic Church teaching to this day.

Now, to the idea of works… James 2 made it clear that faith alone does not save and that faith without works is dead. This verse is especially explicit that works are not some sort of evidence of faith but actually play a role in our growth in faith: “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works.” [Jas. 2:22]

I apologize if I am repeating a point already made, but James’s letter points to the teaching: “Those to whom more is given, more is expected.” This does not necessarily refer only to belief. It refers also to our responsibilities as adopted children of Our Father. Before entering into His covenant sealed by the blood of His Son, nothing we do is of any value nor can it help us obtain justification. After we are justified, however, we are now members of God’s household. He has many things that need doing in this world and He expects us to help Him like good children. Our works are really His; obedience out of love for Him is what we can do. But we cannot boast in our doing these good things because they are nothing more than the duties we owe Our Father. On the other hand, if we refuse to do His Will by obeying Him and doing His good works in this world, then we may forfeit our place in His house. Doing works, therefore, cannot earn our salvation; not doing them, however, can cost it:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=NIV

Yours in Christ’s Love,
Dominicanis

 

[Randy_Carson]

The scholar of the law asked Christ what he must do to inherit eternal life. Our Lord asked him what was written in the Law. The scholar summed it up perfectly and was told to do what he said and he would live. When the scholar pressed Him for more details, Christ then told the parable that showed him that mercy was a necessary part of obtaining eternal life. Faith is necessary, but faith doing something merciful is shown as what one must do to obtain eternal life by loving God and neighbor. Christ told him this Himself.

Remember, Christ also said about the Law: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” [Matthew 5:17-19]

The Law in and of itself cannot save, yet adherence to it is promised by Christ to save and to grant someone a place in the kingdom of Heaven. Does one part of Scripture contradict another? Or is it possible that Christ is telling us that the Law and the Gospel are not opposed to one another but work in conjunction to lead some of the chosen people to Him, that the Law prepared the hearts of the Jews who kept it (as Christ said it had to be kept) to accept Him as their Messiah?

What of the condemnations that the Apostles make about the Law? They are condemning those who claimed that Christians had to first become Jews in order to be baptized. The council meeting at Jerusalem had condemned that teaching and said that the Gentiles were exempt from keeping the Mosaic Law. Yet, some tried to teach it and the Apostles had to stress that the Law was only preparation for the Gospel and could not replace it. This is still Catholic Church teaching to this day.

Now, to the idea of works… James 2 made it clear that faith alone does not save and that faith without works is dead. This verse is especially explicit that works are not some sort of evidence of faith but actually play a role in our growth in faith: “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works.” [Jas. 2:22]

I apologize if I am repeating a point already made, but James’s letter points to the teaching: “Those to whom more is given, more is expected.” This does not necessarily refer only to belief. It refers also to our responsibilities as adopted children of Our Father. Before entering into His covenant sealed by the blood of His Son, nothing we do is of any value nor can it help us obtain justification. After we are justified, however, we are now members of God’s household. He has many things that need doing in this world and He expects us to help Him like good children. Our works are really His; obedience out of love for Him is what we can do. But we cannot boast in our doing these good things because they are nothing more than the duties we owe Our Father. On the other hand, if we refuse to do His Will by obeying Him and doing His good works in this world, then we may forfeit our place in His house. Doing works, therefore, cannot earn our salvation; not doing them, however, can cost it:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=NIV

Yours in Christ’s Love,
Dominicanis

Don’t y’all wish Dominicanis had more than 49 posts? :yup:

 

[brb2]

Pardon me. The Prodigal Son would have to “do Purgatory”. By the way, Purgatory is used for cases of confessed mortal sin…

Yes, beg your pardon … The P-Son suffered in this life … for his mortal sin infractions. He was ‘purged’ cleansed in his earthly life. As Father Corapi says, we can pay now or later … [undergo / experience] the emotional distress/agony for our Post-baptismal sins in this life, or in the next. The penance is easier in the here and now … than in the next life, when the ‘interest’ penalty on our sin has accrued.

The prodigal son’s Father fully forgave him of the infractions … just as he did for the thief on cross. Neither will need to pay additional ‘afterdeath’ temporal restoration for these FULLY CONFESSED sins.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, beg your pardon … The P-Son suffered in this life … for his mortal sin infractions. He was ‘purged’ cleansed in his earthly life. As Father Corapi says, we can pay now or later … [undergo / experience] the emotional distress/agony for our Post-baptismal sins in this life, or in the next. The penance is easier in the here and now … than in the next life, when the ‘interest’ penalty on our sin has accrued.

The prodigal son’s Father fully forgave him of the infractions … just as he did for the thief on cross. Neither will need to pay additional ‘afterdeath’ temporal restoration for these FULLY CONFESSED sins.

Confession brings forgiveness which relates to the eternal effects of sin. This does not address the temporal effects of sin, however.

For example, David’s first son by Bathsheba still died (temporal effect) even though he had confessed and was forgiven for adultery and murder.

 

[adriancombe]

The “age to come” is neither heaven, hell nor Catholic purgatory. It’s the earthly, Millennial Kingdom of the Son of David.

An unlikely eisegesis to put it nicely. This word for age - αιων - is used again by Matthew in the next chapter, chapter 13, vs. 49 and following. It refers to the end of this age. It is clear that Jesus uses this to mean the end of time: in that passsage he describes the Final Judgment! Therefore, the ‘age to come’ can only mean eternity.

 

[JacobG]

MD. Lets get back to the question at hand.

No more beating around the bush. I want a straight answer Lets see if you can do this Just Once.

Jesus says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come.

Okay now, Now this passages states quite clear that certain offenses can be Pardoned in this age. But it also states some sins can be pardoned in the age to come.

Now I do not want you to give me tons of scripture that have nothing to do with this as you have been doing I am asking YOU. Can we have sin and get to heaven? Yes or No?

Can we be forgiven in Hell Yes or No?

Then if its either heaven or hell where are these sins being pardoned in the age to come?

Or are you going to do as you have been doing ignore this scripture.

So where is this place or state. Heaven or hell? Because you deny Purgatory? Simple enough.

Rinnie,

If one commits blasphemy against the Holy Spirit they cannot be forgiven period. Not here or in the afterlife. That’s why its called the UNPARDONABLE sin. Its unforgivable. A true born-again Christian cannot commit this sin. This is only what unregenerate man is capable of because he is an enmity of God.

 

[JacobG]

So did you hear that guys. We are all getting in. Our sins are paid. Sin all you like. According to the MD we are good to go. Go do what you what. Jesus paid for all of ours sins and we all are guaranteed eternal life. Forget all the bibles says. THere is no judgement day. Why would there be. Ours sins are all paid.

Rinnie,

Be careful now. God is not mocked. Nor did moondweller say we can keep sinning. That it doesn’t matter. God chastises the Christian who sins. And if he keeps willfully sinning and refuses to repent, he’s in trouble. There is a Judgment Day before Christ Himself. Unless we believe in the Jesus of the Bible, that he ALONE is our Mediator. He ALONE paid our sin debt in full and is the ONLY way to heaven. Unless you believe this, you are believing in another Jesus and another gospel, which the apostle Paul said isn’t ANOTHER (but a false one) because there is only ONE Gospel. We are NOT all guaranteed eternal life with God. Heaven is closed to those who do not accept God’s free gift of salvation. Who deny that Christ paid the full ransom for man’s sins, bore the punishment we deserve on His own body and that His blood sacrifice was perfect and complete, Your church works won’t get you to heaven. Mary cannot help get you there nor any dead saints. You alone, by yourself must come to the Cross, fully acknowledging that you are a sinner who cannot do a thing to save yourself. Your righteous acts are filthy rags before God.The wages of sin is death, There is no one righteous…no, not one! ALL have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. You break one Commandment, you’ve broken them ALL.This is all in the Scriptures. There is nothing YOU can do to save yourself, to win points with God, or to please a Holy God with your church rules and rituals or acts of piety. You MUST deal with your sins now. After you die, it is too late. You must bring those sins to Jesus. He alone fully Forgives. Come to Him with your hands empty and your heart open. ONLY the shed blood of the Son can satisfy God and cleanse you of all unrighteousness. Unless you do this and admit that you are trusting in other things besides Jesus Christ for your salvation and ask Jesus to forgive you and wash you in His blood, then, no, you are not going to heaven. Jesus will cast out many, many self professing christians who trusted in their good works and their church to save them.

 

[grannymh]

Please explain WHICH sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiven.

Please explain WHY ANY SIN is called unpardonable.

If NO ONE can respond to this challenge, – use common sense – then it must be concluded that the general sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit CAN BE FORGIVEN.

 

[JacobG]

“Do this and you will live.”

“Go and do likewise.”

Do? That certainly smacks of “works”, doesn’t it?

John 6:28,29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[JacobG]

Please explain WHICH sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiven.

Please explain WHY ANY SIN is called unpardonable.

If NO ONE can respond to this challenge, – use common sense – then it must be concluded that the general sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit CAN BE FORGIVEN.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when we attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan. We see an example of this in the NT when the pharisees witnessed Jesus performing a miracle and accused Him of doing the devil’s work. This is why Jesus said: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the **blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven **unto men.

Another unpardonable sin is when someone rejects Jesus. Heaven is closed forever to such a person.

 

[grannymh]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when we attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan. We see an example of this in the NT when the pharisees witnessed Jesus performing a miracle and accused Him of doing the devil’s work. This is why Jesus said: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the **blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven **

unto men.

Another unpardonable sin is when someone rejects Jesus. Heaven is closed forever to such a person.

Yes, the ultimate sin against God is when we attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan. Please connect the dots.

WHEN and WHY can this particular sin be forgiven?

 

[Thing]

Rinnie,

God chastises the Christian who sins. . .

Why does He do this?

Jacob:

You must bring those sins to Jesus. He alone fully Forgives

But doesn’t He forgive *all *your sins the moment you become saved?