M
moondweller
Guest
What makes you think they were different?
- Status
T
Thing
Guest
I did not say they were different, I said; ā¦ āThe Apostle tells his readers to hold to what he has taught whether by word or in writing. If they were the same set of things being taught he might have spared himself the ink and just said hold to what I have written only.āWhat makes you think they were different?
What made you think they were them same set.:whacky:
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
Thatās a very troubling reply.Thing:
What makes you think they were different?
TRY TO USE YOUR BRAIN!! If St. Paul wrote exactly the same thing he taught by word of mouth, then he would have had NO REASON to mention both. It is for the very reason that they WERE DIFFERENT, that he felt it necessary to say BOTH word AND letter.
J
JacobG
Guest
Carlan,
I have to agree with Yankee, thereās no second chance after death. 2 Cor. 6:2 says now is the day of salvation. Heb 9:27 tells us that immediately following death comes the judgment. Thereās no possibility of redemption beyond deathās door. (Luke 16:19-31).
1 Peter 3:18 does not refer to the possibility of responding to the gospel after we die. In another passage in 1 Peter it says that the āspirit of Christā spoke through Old Testament prophets. So in 1 Peter 4:6, the preaching was a past event. Christ preached through Noah while these people were still alive, but of course were dead in Peterās day.
As for Matt. 12:31 and the unforgivable sin, The Jews claimed that Jesusā miracles were done by the power of satan. They should have known better since Isaiah had foretold that their Messiah would perform many miracles in the power of the Spirit. It is believed that Matt. 12 describes a unique situation among the Jews, and that the actual committing of this sin requires the presence of the Messiah on the earth doing His messianic miracles. Its very possible that this sin cannot be duplicated today.
I have to agree with Yankee, thereās no second chance after death. 2 Cor. 6:2 says now is the day of salvation. Heb 9:27 tells us that immediately following death comes the judgment. Thereās no possibility of redemption beyond deathās door. (Luke 16:19-31).
1 Peter 3:18 does not refer to the possibility of responding to the gospel after we die. In another passage in 1 Peter it says that the āspirit of Christā spoke through Old Testament prophets. So in 1 Peter 4:6, the preaching was a past event. Christ preached through Noah while these people were still alive, but of course were dead in Peterās day.
As for Matt. 12:31 and the unforgivable sin, The Jews claimed that Jesusā miracles were done by the power of satan. They should have known better since Isaiah had foretold that their Messiah would perform many miracles in the power of the Spirit. It is believed that Matt. 12 describes a unique situation among the Jews, and that the actual committing of this sin requires the presence of the Messiah on the earth doing His messianic miracles. Its very possible that this sin cannot be duplicated today.
T
Thing
Guest
That too is the teaching of the Catholic Church since Apostolic days, as far as I can tell.
Y
yankee_drifter
Guest
The problem I have with purgatory being the ālast confessionā is that it has no scriptural support. The catholic church teaches that oneās time in purgatory can be shortened by the faithful prayers and āgood worksā of those still alive. Again, the Scriptures offers no support that the dead can even benefit from our prayers. If you say, āwell, its tradition handed down,ā then the burden of proof lies with you to show that this tradition came from the apostles themselves.
Jesusā last words on the Cross was: āIt is finished.ā He completed the work of redemption. Redeem means to pay the ransom. Christ never said I paid a portion, now you need to pay the balance. God ordained that manās cleansing must be with Blood. There can be no remission of sins without the shedding of Christās blood. Salvation comes from Christ alone. It is not Christ plus something else. In his high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said: I have completed the work you gave me to do. (John 17:4) It is finished. Thereās nothing missing. Nothing lacking. Nothing else that man can do to clean himself up or needs to do. Manās requirement is to respond by faith to the Gospel. Hebrews 10:14 declares: āBy one sacrifice, He has made perfect forever those who are being made holyā. Thus, those who believe in Christ are āmade perfectā forever, no further āpurgingā is necessary. Those in Christ are made perfect. Does not the catholic church teach that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven? 1 John says: The blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from sin. Rom. 8:1 says: therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Did you catch that? Thereās NO condemnation! If Christ purifies the sinner who turns to Him, if He effected manās purgation, then why do you believe thereās more purification needed?
M
moondweller
Guest
He said either by way of word or letter.
I donāt know why it would trouble you. Could it possibly be that he (and all the N.T. writers) put their teachings into writing because the Holy Spirit Himself inspired (theopneustos, God-breathed) those writings so as to preserve Godās Word for subsequent generations, just as He had done since the time of Moses? Could it just possibly be, ASJ? It certainly sounds like what the H.S. would do, and thereās certainly a precedent for it by the mere existence of the O.T.
Read what Paul wrote to the church at Thessalonika:
2 Thess 2:5 āDo you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?ā
He wrote his great theological Epistle to the church at Rome because he hadnāt visited them yet. But why would you think he never taught those very doctrines to those churches he did plant and revisit?
Read what Peter wrote:
2 Pet 1:13 āI consider it right, as long as I am in this {earthly} dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder,ā
2 Pet 3:1 āThis is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,ā
Certainly Peter wrote, āby way of reminder,ā what he had already taught,
Notice, ASJ, I do use my brain. :thankyou:
C
Carlan
Guest
Jacob,take a look at the Beatitudes in Matthew5, Only the pure in heart will see the face of God. Bless you, Christian, if you persevere till the end in that state, for you will have no need to have your soul purified.
May I suggest you take your pondering deeper. Think of the effects of sin. There is a double consequence to every sin. It entails an unhealthy attachment to us which must be purified. Yes, we have been forgiven when we repent and are reconciled to God,but temporal punishment remains.
If we donāt donāt manage to deal with that before we die, after we are judged, we spend time getting the soul cleaned up before we can rejoice before our Father. You can call it what you want and you can believe or not believe it. But you are going to experience it if you are a Christian.Catholics call that state purgatory.
Carlan
P
panevino
Guest
Ur quick to judge.
I agree that we must have faith in christ & what he did for us to enable our sins to be forgiven. Without this my request for forgiveness would be in vain.
I donāt think any catholic would disagree.
CCC says fruit of sacaments depend on disposition of the recipient.
Ie: no faith - no fruits
Where I think I disagree is your seemingly absolute rejection of a need to ask for forgivness for sins committed after being born again.
Correct me if I have this wrong.
T
Thing
Guest
Did you know that Christians, Iāll have to say Catholics, used to go on pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela. For many of them when they arrived they prayed that they would die there because they knew only too well how easy it was to return to their sins. Sin separates a person from friendship with God. It has to.
Catholics all believe Jesus died to redeem all men. His sacrifice was sufficient to free all men who would ever live. That is how great that sacrifice was. But, we also know that not all men are going to be saved by His sacrifice, though it was great enough to save them.
In the parable of the sower God pours His grace onto the world, onto all men. He is perfectly just and offers all this free gift. Some we are told close their eyes and ears because they do not want to know about it. God is powerfull enough to save them. He is powerful enough to voluntarily be tortured to death to save all of them. He is powerful enough to pour His grace on all men in the world.
But He allows people who have received this initial grace to respond, or reciprocate His love. āLove one another as I have loved you.ā ā If I have all but have not love I am nothing.ā
Humanitysā role in salvation is to respond to His calling. When the person responds they āgrow in graceā as the Apostle says. Or as in the parable of the sower the seeds which grew yielded much. Or as another way of putting it the man who was given 5 talents multiplied his gift. The man who made no use of his gift, you may think of his gift as the grace gifted to him which he did not respond to, had eventually his gift taken from him and the man with the most had his gift increased with it.
ā¦continued below
T
Thing
Guest
ā¦continued
Being āsavedā is a process because we live in a process. We live in time, a world with a time dimension. We are not static creatures. At one point a Christian is Baptised and receives the Holy Spirit, he is catechized, then confirmed in the faith. This is a process. And the new Christian grows in the virtues, his faith increases, hopefully, and grace grows. He increases. He strives to follow Christ and become holy, more Christlike. Again a process.
But what happens when he fails, as the Apostle says, a thief, murderer etc., have no place in the kingdom. An Apostle who does not forgive will not be forgiven. A man who says sin is not in him is a liar. And the devil is the father of lies.
Our new Christian was progressing well, but he fell. Like the prodigal son he has two choices ahead of him. Stay and live in misery as a castaway, or return, convert his heart again. Obviously the choice is clear to most.
But will our newly repentant take upon himself the task of forgiving his own sins. Will he take the place of the prodigal son and go to his father, the long journey back to find him.
Or will he sit with the swine herd and tell himself he knows his father has already forgiven him. The more generous option and the one requiring facing a challenge is the one where he returns and confesses and throws himself on the mercy of the father, neither expecting anything nor presuming anything, asking only to be treated in future as a servant in his own family home.
Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Confession when He breathed the Holy Spirit onto His Apostles with the command to forgive sins, and those sins will be forgiven in heaven. Jesus was not an American protestant. He was not one to look for the easest option or the least challenging option. Everytime He was questioned on the necessity of doing something He would reply with a challenge 'Amen, Amen I say to you, unless youā¦ ', or when questioned if He really ment men to eat his body, He replyed with the challenge to them āUnless you eat My flesh you will not have life in youā. Or if someone asked what they needed to do He would challenge them saying he was not worthy of Him who did not pick up his cross and follow.
The Christianity of Christ is one great sequence of challenges to us. A challenge to respond initially, a challenge to follow Him to the death through any torture to finish the race to the end on Calvary, a challenge to convert your heart back to Him all the time, a challenge to use the Sacrament of Confession and the Holy Eucharist.
These are not idle challenges. This is Gods plan, His method, His way. He could have chosen an easier way for Himself and for us. But as He said Himself He is not asking you to do anything He has not already done Himself. I have gone before you. No man is worthy of Me unless he pick up his cross and follow Me.
The final proof of everthing we know about Christianity and Gods plan is simply the fact that the Apostle recorded Gods own words: these words;
ā¦and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it.
It is our total faith and trust in God the Creator of all things, of the universe, that He is able to preserve the church He has built for all time against the attacks of hell itself. Nothing, literally, neither time, nor death nor error will prevail over what God has just established and built.
If your faith in Christianity rests on the Aopstles then its rests on the One Church Christ founded for all time.
Being āsavedā is a process because we live in a process. We live in time, a world with a time dimension. We are not static creatures. At one point a Christian is Baptised and receives the Holy Spirit, he is catechized, then confirmed in the faith. This is a process. And the new Christian grows in the virtues, his faith increases, hopefully, and grace grows. He increases. He strives to follow Christ and become holy, more Christlike. Again a process.
But what happens when he fails, as the Apostle says, a thief, murderer etc., have no place in the kingdom. An Apostle who does not forgive will not be forgiven. A man who says sin is not in him is a liar. And the devil is the father of lies.
Our new Christian was progressing well, but he fell. Like the prodigal son he has two choices ahead of him. Stay and live in misery as a castaway, or return, convert his heart again. Obviously the choice is clear to most.
But will our newly repentant take upon himself the task of forgiving his own sins. Will he take the place of the prodigal son and go to his father, the long journey back to find him.
Or will he sit with the swine herd and tell himself he knows his father has already forgiven him. The more generous option and the one requiring facing a challenge is the one where he returns and confesses and throws himself on the mercy of the father, neither expecting anything nor presuming anything, asking only to be treated in future as a servant in his own family home.
Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Confession when He breathed the Holy Spirit onto His Apostles with the command to forgive sins, and those sins will be forgiven in heaven. Jesus was not an American protestant. He was not one to look for the easest option or the least challenging option. Everytime He was questioned on the necessity of doing something He would reply with a challenge 'Amen, Amen I say to you, unless youā¦ ', or when questioned if He really ment men to eat his body, He replyed with the challenge to them āUnless you eat My flesh you will not have life in youā. Or if someone asked what they needed to do He would challenge them saying he was not worthy of Him who did not pick up his cross and follow.
The Christianity of Christ is one great sequence of challenges to us. A challenge to respond initially, a challenge to follow Him to the death through any torture to finish the race to the end on Calvary, a challenge to convert your heart back to Him all the time, a challenge to use the Sacrament of Confession and the Holy Eucharist.
These are not idle challenges. This is Gods plan, His method, His way. He could have chosen an easier way for Himself and for us. But as He said Himself He is not asking you to do anything He has not already done Himself. I have gone before you. No man is worthy of Me unless he pick up his cross and follow Me.
The final proof of everthing we know about Christianity and Gods plan is simply the fact that the Apostle recorded Gods own words: these words;
ā¦and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it.
It is our total faith and trust in God the Creator of all things, of the universe, that He is able to preserve the church He has built for all time against the attacks of hell itself. Nothing, literally, neither time, nor death nor error will prevail over what God has just established and built.
If your faith in Christianity rests on the Aopstles then its rests on the One Church Christ founded for all time.
A
adriancombe
Guest
What book is banned?
M
moondweller
Guest
But Scripture nowhere states that Christ died to āenableā our sins to be forgiven upon request. But instead:Acts 10:43 āOf Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.ā
Col 1:14 "*ā¦in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins*."And Paul wrote to the Corinthians:1 Cor 15:3 "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,"The Scriptures do not at all state that Christ died for our sins so that upon our request we may receive forgiveness of them. Thatās not at all the gospel (good news) the Apostles were commissioned to take to the world.
Youāre not wrong. Youāre only wrong about the āseeminglyā part.
Why would one have to āaskā to be forgiven for that which was forever forgiven upon personal belief in Jesus Christ, Godās sin-Bearer? That would actually be an act of unbelief.
The true believer is to āwalk by faithā in what God has revealed concerning Christ and our sins. You see, my friend, according to the Scriptures for the true believer there are no sins of which to be cleansed, of which to be purified after death. God has put away/taken away his sins, once for all, 2000 years ago at Calvary:Jn. 1:29 āBehold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.ā
Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."When a true believer sins he may certainly acknowledge that sin to the Lord, repent of it (this means to turn away and go another direction), and then, in an act of true faith, thank His Father for Jesus Christ who āput awayā his sin, once for all, by the sacrifice of Himself. Thatās communion with God according to faith in HIS Word. Such faith actually honors Him and gives all glory to Christ.
According to the Scriptures there is no need for a āsacrament of reconciliationā or a āpurgatory.ā Those doctrines actually deny what Christ accomplished, once for all, at Calvary.
Jesus said:John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."IOW, those who DO believe DO NOT die in their sins. Hence, no doctrine of purgatory can be found in the Scriptures.
All believers truly have a tremendous amount for which to thank God, and to be grateful for NOW - and for all eternity.
Happy Thanksgiving.
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
No. You are wrong. St. Paul says āHold to all I have taught you whether by word or by letter.ā Not either by word or letter. Thereās a huge difference.
IOW, St. Paul is saying āboth andā NOT āeither orā
St Paul is NOT saying ONLY what you heard by letter, but BOTH word and letter.
St. Paul says both word and letter, because OBVIOUSLY St. Paulās teachings were not all encompassed by his letters. If the letters CONTAINED ALL, then there was NO NEED for the Apostles. They could have sent out letters to the whole world and been done with it. No need for coming among the people, laying on of hands, preaching the word, and answering questions, training new teachers and ordaining priests for when they moved on.
Donāt forget WHY St. Paulās letters are considered Sacred Scripture. Because the Catholic Church, in her teaching authority canonized those letters as the inspired word. IF it wasnāt for the Catholic Church, you would have NO SCRIPTURES to misinterpret. You would have no assurance that these were indeed Sacred Scriptures.
This is what St. Peter means by āwresting the meaning to their own destructionā He was speaking of St. Paulās letters in particular.
A
adriancombe
Guest
Because it is a bad translation, and you misinterpret it. As has already been demonstrated. You ignore the source language and the context!
Look at verse 1. What is the Greek word translated as ācontinuallyā in the NKJV which you cited? ā(Eis to) dihnekesā! The same one that is translated āfor all timeā in verse 10, which you interpret as āonce and for allā, is actually the phrase used in verse 1 to refer to the priest in the OT repeatedly going āyear by yearā to offer sacrifices!
This is of course consistent with the rest of verse 14, where hagizomenous is a present participle passive - the present tense in Greek, as you are well aware, indicating ongoing action.
Isnāt it great that your favorite proof text actually supports the perpetual sacrifice theology of the Catholic Church?
B
brb2
Guest
UB so wrong. Purgatory is not fully delineated in scripture, but in many places it is discussed / taught in brief snippets, by a number OT prophets, the Apostles, as well as Christ.
You have no concept of a Christianās timeline on earth. For you the past/present/future are all IN YOUR PAST. You are a dinosaur / a fossil from the āreformistā past.
Why did Christ give the Lordās Prayer ā¦ to his believing/redeemed Apostles / and Church ? Those who already BELIEVED in him ā¦ yet would still fall again into sin and short spells of disbelief/error.
To say you have no current sin or need to confess it [just because you were justified in past] is at odds with scripture. And to suggest that your belief is sufficient to ātransformā all error into perfection is ludicrous. You manifest Alice in Wonderland, or worst yet, Descartestian philosophy ā¦ and are puffed up with satanās sin of pride.
Suffering, purgation, and death are in our futures. Either in this world the norm for those redeemed, who routinely perceive need to confess and serve needed penance now for the mortals], ā¦ or as Peter says "saved, as by fireā in some Purgatorial fashion thereafter [for the venials].
Yes, give thanks today in Pilgrim fashion, ā¦ but, say your grace for turkey dinner, then confess your err, ā¦ and let Christ give you some needed āgracesā & heal your erroneous thinking on meaning in scriptures on your MANY post-baptismal sins.
J
JacobG
Guest
Who can maintain a pure heart? Its impossible. In this life we can never do it. What purity of heart refers to in scripture is to be concerned with the motives and intents of our hearts in all that we do. The promise of the beatitudes is not only in this life, but is fully to be accomplished in the future. God knows we canāt maintain a pure heart. He knows we keep lapsing in sin because we are fallen. Thatās why Christ came and died for you and me.Jacob,take a look at the Beatitudes in Matthew5, Only the pure in heart will see the face of God. Bless you, Christian, if you persevere till the end in that state, for you will have no need to have your soul purified.
May I suggest you take your pondering deeper. Think of the effects of sin. There is a double consequence to every sin. It entails an unhealthy attachment to us which must be purified. Yes, we have been forgiven when we repent and are reconciled to God,but temporal punishment remains.
If we donāt donāt manage to deal with that before we die, after we are judged, we spend time getting the soul cleaned up before we can rejoice before our Father. You can call it what you want and you can believe or not believe it. But you are going to experience it if you are a Christian.Catholics call that state purgatory.
The Holy Scriptures makes no mention of a place like purgatory. Paul who preached the entire gospel, makes no mention of an intermediate state. He makes no mention of any further purification or need for it. Nothing about second chances after we die. On the contrary, he said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. Its either heaven or hell. No getting cleansed first and then entrance to heaven. The Bible nowhere teaches any of this.
Nor does the Bible mention temporal punishment. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever taught about it.
The other problem is that Christās all sufficient, perfect, once for all, complete blood sacrifice/atonement leaves no need for a place called purgatory. Hebrews tells us that Christ already (past tense) purified the sinner who turned to him in true repentance. To say we need more purification is to deny what Christ accomplished at Calvary, and to say that His blood wasnāt enough to cleanse you. But God had ordained that manās cleansing be with blood. Fire does not cleanse sin. There is NO remission of sin without the shedding of blood. If we could be cleansed any other way, then Jesus would not have had to die on the Cross in such a horrific sacrificial way. Its been said many times on here, bur bears repeating; the Scriptures says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Yes the affects of sin is devastating. Adam and Eve suffered death because of it. It hurts relationships with people and our relationship with God. But sin was all laid on Christ, nailed to the Cross. Now we can have redemption and forgiveness. Romans 5 says: For as by one manās disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. We are made righteous when we are born again and sealed to Christ.
Let me ask you: The Scriptures tell us that when we confess, God is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God also promised not to remember these confessed sins anymore. So, why is it that you believe, since God no longer remembers these sins, that they are still laid on you and that you need purification after death?
T
Thing
Guest
[
The Catholic Definition of the Term Concupiscence
I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me. For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man: but I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members. Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:21-25) ](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm)
21 **For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. **22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.
C
Carlan
Guest
Jacob, you are looking at what all the Catholic posters in this thread have said with a closed mind. I think you have not pondered any of it. you have your own interpretation or that of your denomination teachers. Read again what Catholics have said concerning what you have posted in your last paragraph here.:yup:
God bless you on this thanksgiving morning. Carlan
J
JustaServant
Guest
Since this thread is nearing the 1000 post limit, he has a lot of reading to do.Jacob, you are looking at what all the Catholic posters in this thread have said with a closed mind. I think you have not pondered any of it. you have your own interpretation or that of your denomination teachers. Read again what Catholics have said concerning what you have posted in your last paragraph here.:yup:
- Status