purgatory

[guanophore]

. Didn’t Jesus say that when He said:… but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. BTW a true Christian cannot commit this sin.

Do you say this because you believe in the doctrine of irresistable grace?

You are aware, aren’t you, that the scriptures make no distinction of a “true” believer?

First of all this is the purgatory thread and we have been warned to stick to the topic. So I can’t answer any more questions not having to do with purgatory.

You are right, of course.

Purgatory was never taught by Christ. Never taught by the apostles. The best you can muster is from an uninspired apocryphal book: Maccabees, which was written during the 400 year silence after Malachi when there were no prophets on the earth. No revelations were given during this time period

You have been wrongly taught about the Deuterocanonical books, as well as the teachings of Jesus we received throught the Apostles.

We did not get the Bible from the RCC, nor were the NT writers roman catholics. Monks did copy and preserve what was already written, but that’s all the credit you can claim .

I will be the first to remind folks that the Catholic Church is not 'Roman". However, it was Catholics that wrote the NT, and Catholics who preserved, canonized, and promulgated it. It is not about claiming “credit”, as that belongs to God, who is at work within His saints to will and to do His good pleasure. It is a matter of history.

For you to give me Latin definitions is meaningless…

Why would Latin definitions be “meaningless” to you? Do you not realize that the vast majority of the Reformation writings were done in Latin, and in response to Latin theology?

 

[guanophore]

Let me ask you a question: what does the catholic church mean by born-again? Its a term rarely used by catholics. Is this something that happens as soon as an infant is baptized?

On being born-again. John wrote: “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).

At the risk of getting off topic, I will say that John was a Catholic, writing Catholic faith. Yes, we are born again by water and Spirit in baptism. This can happen at any age. The Apostles taught that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance rite into the New Covenant, so we do not withhold it from infants. Infants under the Old covenant could not profess faith either, but being born into believing households, were raised in the faith.

Notice that those who are born-again “believe in His name.” Is it possible for an infant to believe or have faith in anything? Those who are born-again are born of God not of any human initiative.

First you say that a person has to make a profession of faith, then you say it is not “of any human initiative”. It seems contradictory to me. What prevents God from circumcising the heart of an infant?

You can not be born-again because you were born into a Christian family, or because of self-will or because of your parents’ decision to baptize you. It is God who calls and draws those He has chosen (Eph. 1:4; John 6:44; Rom. 8:30).

Well, I agree. The Catholic Church does not baptize without a profession of faith, doesn’t matter where you are born. Baptism is not a matter of “self will”. It is the commandment of God, and when obeyed, brings grace to the one who participates.

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Scriptures do not teach

I agree. Teaching is a duty given by Christ to persons not writings, however Holy.

that a priest can forgive sins. If he could totally absolve you, then why is it you still need to do acts of penance and piety?

This is like asking, “If my neighbor already forgave me for breaking his plate glass window, why should I offer to pay to replace it, or agree not to hit the ball in that direction in the future?”

When we read about Peter and Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8, this man wanted to buy from the apostle, the power of laying on of hands to give others the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire God’s gift with money! You have no share or part in this matter because your heart is not right before God! Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart. For I see that you are bitterly envious and in bondage to sin.” But Simon replied, “You pray to the Lord for me so that nothing of what you have said may happen to me.”

If Peter was pope or had authority, why then didn’t he just hear the Sorcerers confession and absolve him?

Well, what do you think that describes? this is one of the earliest examples of confession and a request for absolution.

Where in Scriptures do we read that Jesus gave us a sacramental system? Where did He institute the mass with its priest, victim and sacrifices?

Not sure what “system” it is you speak of here. Jesus did not give us a “system”. I think this is a very good question, but it is off topic in this thread.

The Bible is clear that unbelievers will spend eternity in hell. Of this I think we can all agree on. But from the catholic church’s traditions and their reliance of non-canonical books, the Catholics have developed the doctrine of purgatory. We find purgatory nowhere mentioned in the NT. Purgatory, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, is a “place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” On the other hand, Protestants believe that because we are justified by faith in Christ alone, and that Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us – when we die we will go straight to heaven to be in the presence of the Lord (Corinthians 5:6-10 and Philippians 1:23). This is in accordance with the Scriptures.

Yes. well, we read them differently, don’t we?

The Catholic faith, unlike the ecclesial communities started by men during the reformation, is not a “bible based” religion. Our faith was delivered to the saints complete and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. The NT REFLECTS the Catholic faith, but is not the source of it. Jesus is the Source.

The NT was never intended to be a complete compendium of the faith.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus Christ, before His ascension to heaven, gave us, not a man to lead, guide and teach us Truth, but gave us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells the Christian who is born again and washed in the blood of Christ

You are creating a false dichotomy again, Yankee. Jeus left men in charge to lead, and promised His HS so they would not fall into error. Jesus does give the Spirit of Truth to the Chrsitian who is born again and washed in the blood of Christ (baptism). However, that HS always leads toward unity, and does not “reveal” things to individuals that are contrary to what He has already revealed to the Church.

.

 This is why Scriptures can be understood by the Christian. He is relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Jews were given the Oracles of God. God trusted a fallible people with His infallible Word. With His divine revelations. But Jesus never said for the Jews to go to the synagogue and have the rabbi interpret for them. He often said: Have you not read?

Indeed, the Holy Scriptures can be understood, and misunderstood by everyone that reads them. this is why there is so much splintering in “bible churches”. Jesus did not have to tell the Jews to go to the synagogue. Part of the Sacred Tradition is that the Rabbi’s sat upon the Seat of Moses. Jesus affirmed the authority of this Seat (teaching authority) when He instructed the disciples “do all that they tell you”. if one is obedient to the authority appointed by Christ, then God will bless such a one, even if that authority is a hypocrite (“do not as they do”). Before He ascended, Jesus transfered the Seat of Moses (Teaching Authority) to His Apostles, and promised that the HS would lead them into all Truth.

What Christ accomplished at Calvary, leaves no place or need for purgatory, indulgences, temporal punishment.

Please explain, then, why Jesus did not take the thief next to Him when He gave up His spirit? Why did He allow that man to suffer the just consequences of his crimes?

I guess you are saying, if I break my neighbors window, there is no need to make reparation, or restoration. As long as he forgives me, I have no responsibility for the harm I have caused. Honestly, Yankee, this does not even satisfy common sense!

These things go against the perfect, complete blood sacrifice of Christ on behalf of the sinner. There is nothing left for sinners to do, but to accept this free gift of salvation, believe on the One who offers this gift, and follow Him. Christ did not make a partial payment, then demanded we pay the rest. That’s the opposite of what REDEEM means.

You have misundertood purgatory, indulgences, and temporal punishment. All these things are possible BECAUSE of the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

If you need unwritten traditions, or apocryphal books, to try and prove purgatory, then you are going outside of God's Holy, inspired, inerrant Word.

No, Catholics don’t need any of these things. The doctrine was delivered whole and entire to the Church before the NT was written. The NT was never intended to contain everything in the faith.

You are denying the all sufficiency of Christ’s atonement. You are adding to Scripture which we have no right to do.

No, Yankee, we do not deny the all sufficiency of Christ’s atonement. However, I do undertand why it seems that way to you, since you do not understand the Catholic doctrine. Your perception of it is so skewed, it makes sense that you would come to this conclusion based upon the false premise you make.

We must never usurp Christ's authority by placing men in very lofty positions as if they were Christ on earth, and placing traditions on par with the God breathed, Holy Spirit authored, Holy Scriptures. Nor does Christ  reside in a church. He does not dwell in temples made by  hands.

It seems that you have been steeped in a tradition that has many departures from the Apostolic Faith. I hope your hostility and prejudice will not prevent you from learning how erroneous these ideas really are.

We have been repeatedly warned to stick to the topic or else the thread will be closed.

It is interesting that you should close with this, since this post has at least five other topics brought up in it. At least you seem to realize that your intense hostility toward Catholicism prevents you from being able to focus.

 

[guanophore]

He gave us both. Since you accept the leadership of the Holy Spirit promised to the Church, let’s focus on what you miss: the leadership of the Apostle Peter.

Your posts are great refutation of Yankees’ baseless accusations, Randy, but let’s all help each other stay on topic. Let us encourage Yankee to start new threads for all these doctrinal accusations, if he is willing.

I think it is really hard for him, since he has so much hostility and prejudice against Catholicism, to focus, and it is hard for us not to respond the the shotgun approach.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I repeat my previous post:

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

 

[cassini]

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

Interesting Irish Catholic. Given I have just spotted this thread and haven’t the time to read 950 posts I just had to add my tuppence worth.

Didn’t Our Lady of Fatima tell one of the children one of her friends woulds be** in **Purgatory until the end of the world? Now I know this is not a dogma and we can take it or leave it without harming our catholic faith, but given the faith in fatima if this is not correct why believe any of the rest or the reverse.

Now I found this a problem. Doesn’t it mean that all the prayers for this girl will not get her out of Purgatory? Is praying for her then of no consequence?

And Irish Catholic where does this leave your thinking on it. Before hearing the fatima bad news, I did wonder was Purgatory an instant cleansing by God or was it the traditional understanding as a mini-hell that you did eventually get out of?

Now I know why the post has hit the 950 mark.

 

[guanophore]

All a person has to do if he has the idea of purgatory is to look for verses that has the word “fire”, “prison” or “prayer”, and voila! there’s purgatory! We must NEVER approach the Holy Scriptures this way.

Catholics approach the Scripture from the point of view of those who wrote them. We have the Teachings of the Apostles, so of course we see them reflected in the scritpure. The Scriptures reflect what the Church believes and teaches.

The passage above is talking about loss of rewards. The useless work gets destroyed but the person is saved. Nothing about purification here.

Perhaps our problem is a semantic one? You see, what you have described here is what we understand purification is. When gold is purified, it is heated, and the dross is separated. When surgical utensils are purified (sterilized) they are processed, and the bacteria are removed.

when people are purified, “useless work” (that which a person has done that is not of God, to which they are attached) is removed, and the person is made fit for dwelling in the presence of God. It seems to me that we are saying the same thing.

Where is Jesus implying some sins can be forgiven after death? What He said was: but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit **will not be forgiven**, **either in this age or in the age to come**." He said these sins CANNOT be forgiven, EVER! Unless you repent while you are alive on earth, its TOO LATE!

Such a statement implies that sins may be forgiven in the Age to Come - just not that sin.

Christians however, cannot commit the unpardonable sin because only an unbeliever rejects Christ, and would dare to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan!

This is an extrabiblical doctrine. If it were not possible for a believer to commit this sin, then the writer of Hebrews would not have described it.

As for the passages in Peter which you quoted, again nothing to do with purgatory.1 Peter 4:6 isn’t talking about any preaching to dead people, giving them second chances.

Neither is purgatory, Yankee. For God’s sake man! Put away those Jack Chick Tracts and listen to us! You keep setting up strawmen like this, insisting that the Catholic church teaches something it does not, then arguing against your own (or Chick’s) imagination.

The spirits in prison (2 Peter 2:4) referred to in 3:19 are the same as the dead referred to in 4:6. The dead were not dead at the time the preaching took place! **They were dead at the time Peter was writing** and they remain dead today! Preaching to the dead while they were dead would have served absolutely no purpose (Luke 16:26-31; Heb 9:27).

I don’t know where you got this, Yankee, but it is way off the mark.

These passages teach that Christ in the Spirit preached through the person of Noah (2 Peter 2:5) to those that lived before the flood. The result of Christ’s preaching in the Spirit through Noah was that all the disobedient (3:20) were lost in the flood (for eternity) and that eight souls were saved by the water (3:20) which separated them from the sinful pre-flood world; a figure or example of our salvation and separation from this sinful world through the waters of baptism (3:21).

This gross misunderstanding belongs on another thread.

As for your quotes from Maccabees, they are apocryphal books which were never accepted by the Jews and it was to the Jewish people that the "Oracles of God" were given. God entrusted them with the OT. The apocrypha was written during the 400 year silence after Malachi when there were no new revelations and no prophets on the earth. The apocrypha is not Roman Catholic or Orthodox literature; it is Jewish literature written by Jews.

You just contradicted yourself here, Yankee. It is Jewish scripture, written by Jews, and used by Jesus and the Apostles. It was widely in use with the diaspora Jews, which is why it was adopted by the Church.

However, even you admit it is Jewish literature, so that should be enough to show you that the RCC did not “invent” purgatory, since the Jews believed in it 400 years prior to Christ.

Martin Luther “removed” nothing. These apocryphal books were never in the Hebrew canon. The reformers did not treat it as canonical, but neither did they reject it or warn their followers against it. While they advised that Christians should not base doctrine on the apocrypha since it was not canonical Scripture, they argued that Christians could and even should read the books of the Apocrypha as literature that could enhance their lives before God.

In his German Bible, Luther placed the books of the apocrypha in a section between the Old and New Testaments prefaced with this note: “Apocrypha—that is, books which are not held equal to the Holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.”

All this is off topic, Yankee. Please try to restrain yourself.

If indeed the Reformers recommended the reading as beneficial, then how come you are unable to be benefitted by the knowledge that the Jews believed in atonement of sins after death?

 

[adriancombe]

Interesting Irish Catholic. Given I have just spotted this thread and haven’t the time to read 950 posts I just had to add my tuppence worth.

Didn’t Our Lady of Fatima tell one of the children one of her friends woulds be** in **Purgatory until the end of the world? Now I know this is not a dogma and we can take it or leave it without harming our catholic faith, but given the faith in fatima if this is not correct why believe any of the rest or the reverse.

Now I found this a problem. Doesn’t it mean that all the prayers for this girl will not get her out of Purgatory? Is praying for her then of no consequence?

And Irish Catholic where does this leave your thinking on it. Before hearing the fatima bad news, I did wonder was Purgatory an instant cleansing by God or was it the traditional understanding as a mini-hell that you did eventually get out of?

Now I know why the post has hit the 950 mark.

Good questions. We never know all the answers in this life.

I recommend ‘Purgatory Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints’. This is for those who believe in Purgatory and want to understand more. In terms of apologetics for non-Catholics, it doesn’t add to what has already been presented here.

My understanding is God applies our prayers to those who need them most and in accordance with His perfect Justice. With the girl mentioned in the Fatima apparition, it could mean that God knew others had less culpability than she, and the prayers offered for her would help others. Or, it could mean God knows not enough prayers would be offered for her. Perhaps it was true but intended to inspire people to pray for her, so she would be freed from Purgatory sooner.

But nowhere is it stated we are required to know everything.

 

[guanophore]

I’m assuming this is the interpretation of your church. I read nothing of this in the Holy Scriptures. The apostle Paul was depending on the grace of God and not on perfect obedience because he realized his own fallen nature and the hopelessness of trying to keep God’s law, i.e. the 10 Commandments. He simply couldn’t do it and neither can we.This is why Christ came and died for us.

You do not understand the Scriptures this way because you have been steeped in a tradition that is cut off from what the Apostles believed and taught. Of course Paul was depending on the grace of God! It is in that grace that we are enabled to have perfect obedience. Yes, keeping the Law by our fallen human nature is futile, but by grace, through faith, we are all able to folllow the commandments of God. It is an error to beleive that God commands us to do something that He does not also enable us to do.

The difference between Paul and roman catholic teaching is that Paul based his salvation on the blood sacrifice of Christ and the grace of God. Not not his own merit.

this is Catholic, Yankee. Whatever you have been given to believe as Catholic is not. Are you willing to relinquish those lies, so you can learn the Truth? Moon is not, sadly.

He did not teach he would need to be purified after death. Yet this apostle said he had preached the **entire** Gospel. He said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He never mentioned any intermediate place.

Yes, Paul most certainly did teach about the purification after death. He also taught the same doctrine for those who are alive and remain. For them, it happens “in a moment, in the twinking of an eye, we shall all be changed”. Why must this change occur? Because nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Yankee, it may be that you are unable to receive the Truth at this point in your life, but I will say this anyway for the benefit of those others reading that may be able to learn. Being in Purgatory (the state of cleansing that makes us fit for heaven) is NOT a s"second chance", nor is it “absent from the Lord”. I can assure you that we are no less separated from Him than we are now, in our fallen bodies.

We enter heaven because of what Christ did at Calvary, not for any other reason. Christ redeems and purifies the sinner who comes to Him. Read Hebrews. But because we are still human, still have a fallen nature, we still sin, but God has provided a way for us, through His Son. When we confess, He is faithful to forgive and cleanses us of all unrighteousness. The born again Christian is not perfect yet, but he’s been forgiven.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

Perhaps the reason why you believe that when you die you will still be stained with sins and therefore cannot enter heaven is because you have not been forgiven.

No, it is because we understand that the effects of sins do not always go away immediately. for example, supposing a Christian (God forbid!) gets drunk and gets a DWI. He throws himself upon God’s mercy and repents of his sin. God forgives him. However, the effects of his wrongdoing remain. He loses his license to drive, he goes to jail, he pays lots of fines, etc. Does God set aside all these consequences of sin?

You have not come to the Cross. Jesus is waiting for you to come to Him with your sins, give them to Him and trust Him for your eternal salvation. This is what Paul did.

Yankee, CAF is not a venue for you to try to turn Catholics into “bible Christians”.

 

[guanophore]

I have to agree with Yankee, there’s no second chance after death. 2 Cor. 6:2 says now is the day of salvation. Heb 9:27 tells us that immediately following death comes the judgment. There’s no possibility of redemption beyond death’s door. (Luke 16:19-31).

It is very Catholic of you to say this! I am glad that we can agree on this.

   1 Peter 3:18 does not refer to the possibility of responding to the gospel after we die. In another passage in 1 Peter it says that the "spirit of Christ" spoke through Old Testament prophets. So in 1 Peter 4:6, the preaching was a past event. Christ preached through Noah while these people were still alive, but of course were dead in Peter's day.

This is a direct denial of what is found in the text.

As for Matt. 12:31 and the unforgivable sin, The Jews claimed that Jesus' miracles were done by the power of satan. They should have known better since Isaiah had foretold that their Messiah would perform many miracles in the power of the Spirit. It is believed that Matt. 12 describes a unique situation among the Jews, and that the actual committing of this sin requires the presence of the Messiah on the earth doing His messianic miracles. Its very possible that this sin cannot be duplicated today.

While I don’t agree with your conclusion (final impenitence is still possible) I do agree that this passage is not very useful in a discussion about Purgatory. I think what is more relevant here is why Paul wrote that people needed to 'be changed" at the moment of the Second coming.

 

[guanophore]

The problem I have with purgatory being the “last confession” is that it has no scriptural support. The catholic church teaches that one’s time in purgatory can be shortened by the faithful prayers and “good works” of those still alive. Again, the Scriptures offers no support that the dead can even benefit from our prayers. If you say, “well, its tradition handed down,” then the burden of proof lies with you to show that this tradition came from the apostles themselves.

I don’t think you realize what you are doing here, Yankee. FIrst you say that you can’t accept what you can’t see in scripture, then you say that Catholics must support our non-Scriptural Apostolic Teachings, but we can’t use scripture. Do you see what a vicious circle that is? Personally, I find quite a few Catholic doctrines impossible to “prove” using scripture. That is not a problem for me, since I have followed the Apostolic commandment to hold fast to what was given, both by word of mouth, and in Scripture. Why do you not follow that command?

 Jesus' last words on the Cross was: "It is finished." He completed the work of redemption. Redeem means to pay the ransom. Christ never said I paid a portion, now you need to pay the balance. God ordained that man's cleansing must be with Blood. There can be no remission of sins without the shedding of Christ's blood. Salvation comes from Christ alone. It is not Christ **plus** something else.

This is all very Catholic, Jacob. You have correctly identified the theological basis for Purgatory.

In his high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said: I have completed the work you gave me to do. (John 17:4) It is finished. There's nothing missing. Nothing lacking. Nothing else that man can do to clean himself up or needs to do. Man's requirement is to respond by faith to the Gospel. Hebrews 10:14 declares: "By one sacrifice, He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy". Thus, those who believe in Christ are "made perfect" forever, no further "purging" is necessary. **Those in Christ are made perfect**. Does not the catholic church teach that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven?

Yes, absolutely the Church teaches this. However, we know that not everyone leaves this life in a state of moral perfection. Some people still have attachements to sin. If you have ever struggled with a behavior you are trying to overcome in your life, then you will know how much one must suffer at times to be separated from sin. Moondweller apparently has never had this experience with sin, so he does not understand why it might be painful to be cleansed of it.

 1 John says: The blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from sin. Rom. 8:1 says: therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Did you catch that? There's NO condemnation! If Christ purifies the sinner who turns to Him, if He effected man's purgation, then why do you believe there's more purification needed?

Purgatory is a gift for the saved, Jacob, not a “condemnation”. To be made holy, in addition to being declared holy, is His final gift to us.

If you believe that people are purified of all sin when we believe, then why do Christians commit sins after they are saved? Should they not be prevented from that?

 

[brb2]

Protestants need to think of Purgatory in terms they are use to. For example, as a child Md & Yankee disobeyed fathers. Rode across street w/o looking first. Your Pops confronted you with the evidence. You fessed up, since he had the goods on you. He forgave you, and you promised not to repeat err.

Still, you had to pay a subsequent penalty. Loss of allowance, spanking, restrictions on privileges, etc. Pop saw to that you paid your debt … to him, mom, and whoever else you endangered or caused to lose nights sleep.

Still, the main reason for punishment was to teach you OBEDIENCE … and make a worthy man out of you - someday He got no pleasure from your penance. You endured purgatorial pains. But, you learned obedience … and perhaps it saved your life the next time you & buddys rode bikes.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Protestants need to think of Purgatory in terms they are use to…

Yes. Thats why I worded my other posts the way I did:

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

 

[brb2]

**

Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.**

Whoosshhhh … Sounds quick, not so temporal or painful Almost what the Protestant in me used to think it might be like.

I’m standing before God and am asked “how do I plead for your Post-baptismal sins”. I look to God’s right hand, point to Christ … and state “I leave all to my Counselor Christ, his blood has covered all my sins”. God says “Good answer. Next”

Short and simple. Over in mere seconds … and I move on to heaven w/o any pain or further judgement.

Problem is … my Protestant OSAS Justification Theology didn’t address reality of Post-Baptismal sins. The Catholic Church has the scriptures to back up its Purgatorial claims. I’m already paying temporal penalty for these sins … and receiving graces for my recent Catholic confessions. Thus, life EXPERIENCE has taught me that the Catholic teaching is CORRECT on need for Purgation. We can and must receive ‘Grace upon Grace’ [per Paul]. Life w/o suffering is inconsistent with Apostolic teaching … and will not yield necessary OBEDIENCE.

Get with God’s program … Md & Yankee

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Whoosshhhh … Sounds quick, not so temporal or painful…

Even Jimmy Akin, the head apologist here at Catholic Answers, will say that we cannot define how “time” works in heaven. It may take some time, or it may be over in an instant. The Church has not formally defined such things

 

[guanophore]

Who can maintain a pure heart? Its impossible. In this life we can never do it. What purity of heart refers to in scripture is to be concerned with the motives and intents of our hearts in all that we do. The promise of the beatitudes is not only in this life, but is fully to be accomplished in the future. God knows we can’t maintain a pure heart. He knows we keep lapsing in sin because we are fallen. That’s why Christ came and died for you and me.

\

Yes, He came to deliver us from sin. Because of the mighty power at work within us by His grace, we are able to have a pure heart. We are able to live out all the Beatitudes IN THIS LIFE!

The Holy Scriptures makes no mention of a place like purgatory. Paul who preached the entire gospel, makes no mention of an intermediate state.

Not all of what Paul preached in in the scripture, Jacob. Paul was a Jew, and he used the Septuagint. It is clear that the place of the righteous dead was known to the Jews at least 400 years before Christ.

But hey, if you can get the lectures from Tyrannus on mp3, let me know, because I have been looking for them!

He makes no mention of any further purification or need for it. Nothing about second chances after we die.

Jacob, dear brother, please put down those Jack Chick tracts and let’s have a reasonable discussion. Instead of debating with us about made up stuff, why not debate with us about what we really believe?

Nor does the Bible mention temporal punishment. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever taught about it.

I can think of no greater illustration than leaving the thief on the cross when He gave up HIs spirit.

But God had ordained that man’s cleansing be with blood. Fire does not cleanse sin. There is NO remission of sin without the shedding of blood. If we could be cleansed any other way, then Jesus would not have had to die on the Cross in such a horrific sacrificial way. Its been said many times on here, bur bears repeating; the Scriptures says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Purgatory is not a “condemnation” but a gift. Yes, we are able to be cleansed with fire because He paid the price of our sin with HIs blood.

Yes the affects of sin is devastating. Adam and Eve suffered death because of it. It hurts relationships with people and our relationship with God. But sin was all laid on Christ, nailed to the Cross.

I am glad to hear you say this, Jacob. Some people on this thread seem to have no understanding of this whatsoever. Making reparation (repairs) is part of repentance. We are to do the deeds that befit repentance, which means we turn away from the wrong and do the right. This action, by God’s grace, will heal the damage we have caused.

Let me ask you: The Scriptures tell us that when we confess, God is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God also promised not to remember these confessed sins anymore. So, why is it that you believe, since God no longer remembers these sins, that they are still laid on you and that you need purification after death?

We don’t, but thanks for asking. It is refreshing to see you do this, instead of assuming that you know what we believe in advance. Remember the neighbors broken window. My generous neighbor forgives the damage caused by the rock that was thrown from my mower. Now, does that mean I should take no action to replace the window?

 

[guanophore]

Heb 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected for all time (lit. in perpetuity) those who are sanctified.”

Heb. 1:3b "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.“Whose sins do you think those are, guanophore, of which Christ made “purification?”“Effects,” "attachments,” these words are nonsensical in light of who the believer now is in the risen Christ, according to the Scriptures. There are no “effects” or “attachments” to sin in the risen Christ, are there?

No, but I thank you for asking this question, because it helps me to clarify your position.

Our identity in Christ has two apects - just as He had two natures, one Divine, and one Human, so we share in this. By His Spirit we have become adopted, and are now partakers of His grace. We are able to share in His divinity. However, we are also still struggling against our fallen nature. The new man, and the old man, are both active within us.

Then nor are there “effects” and “attachments” to those who “died TO SIN” with Christ and are now “in Him” risen.Being now “in Christ,” it is impossible for one to be “incompletely” sanctified.

I apppreciate this also. This statement gives me an important insight into your theology.

In fact, we understand Rom . 7 to be describing those effects and attachments. I marvel to hear you say that it is “impossible for one to be incompletely sanctified”. The Apostles taught us that the path to holiness (sanctification) continues so long as we walk upon this earth.

2Co 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

If we are already completely made holy, why do Christians still sin? Why do we need to be transformed any further?

I thought that you believed in a positional and a practical?

According to GOD’S WORD, the true believer is completely sanctified by His will, not through “purifying fires” in the afterlife, but through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ- once for all.

The two are not mutually exclusive, Moon. We are sanctified by His will, yes. By His blood. How He purifies us in a practical sense depends on His plan for the individual. some were required to give their lives, others underwent suffering of other kinds. All suffering can be purifying if received with joy.

You’re actually stating that Christ’s sacrificial work is not sufficient and leaves the believer incomplete to the point that he himself must finish what Christ, through His sacrificial work, could not.

No, Moon, you misunderstand. His work is completed on the cross. The work in us is not completed in this lifetime. He does not “leave the believer”, but is constantly at work in them to will and to do His good pleasure. He who began a good work is faithful to complete it.

The true believer is now in the risen Christ. What “dross” must be yet burned away from the risen Christ in whom the true believer is now eternally identified?

You know, reading this post makes me worry for the first time that maybe you might be suffering from some form of megalomania.

If you believe that you have no sin, and that you are completely pure as the risen Christ, then I guess you have no dross.

The “fire” in that passage has to do with the future judgment of the believer’s WORKS. Not the “person.” The "gold, “silver” and “precious stones” describe the believer’s WORKS which are not combustible and therefore qualify for REWARD. Other WORKS described, figuratively, as “wood,” “hay” and “straw,” are completely combustible and do not remain. Hence, do not qualify for REWARD.

I am glad we are in agreement on this point. Catholics believe that one’s works are an expression of their heart - their state of grace (or lack of it). Do you believe that any Christian can engage in “dead works”?

There will come a time that nothing unclean will be in heaven or earth. But it’s not true that nothing unclean can enter heaven now.

Wow.

**Happy Thanksgiving Guanophore!!! ** If you were to take God’s Word for it, you’ve got a lot for which to be thankful.

Thanks Moon, indeed I have!

 

[guanophore]

So you’re saying that it’s possible that a lot of your clergy have been wrongly taught? Have you seen an official edict against this handbook for clergy?

I can say that without hesitation. The worst era may have beent that of the Reformation. Had so many clergy not been teaching and practicing error, we would not be in the splintered situation Christendom is in today.

 

[guanophore]

I haven’t read through the whole post but what about
Christians who are alive at the time of Christ’s return at the great white throne judgment. Rev. 20:11 There are two classes of people: those whose names are written in the book of life and who enter heaven and those whose names were not written in the book of life and who were judged and were thrown into the lake of fire. So what happens to the purification of those Christains who hadn’t gone to purgatory to be ‘purged’ since they were still alive upon Christ’s return? Purgatory is not even mentioned. Wouldn’t that negate the theology of purgatory?

Actually, what happens to those who are alive at the 2nd coming is strong confirmation for Purgatory. In fact, Protestants believe in purgatory too, they just think it happens instantaneously. As scripture says, 1Co 15:52 “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

On a side note, each person was judge according to the works or deeds they had done. Nothing is mentioned about belief in God or forgiveness of prior sinful works but were judged according to the works they had done throughout life?

We understand this passage in the light of the rest of the teaching on judgement. A good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree bears bad fruit.