purgatory

[yankee_drifter]

You are creating a false dichotomy again, Yankee. Jeus left men in charge to lead, and promised His HS so they would not fall into error. Jesus does give the Spirit of Truth to the Chrsitian who is born again and washed in the blood of Christ (baptism). However, that HS always leads toward unity, and does not “reveal” things to individuals that are contrary to what He has already revealed to the Church.

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Indeed, the Holy Scriptures can be understood, and misunderstood by everyone that reads them. this is why there is so much splintering in “bible churches”. Jesus did not have to tell the Jews to go to the synagogue. Part of the Sacred Tradition is that the Rabbi’s sat upon the Seat of Moses. Jesus affirmed the authority of this Seat (teaching authority) when He instructed the disciples “do all that they tell you”. if one is obedient to the authority appointed by Christ, then God will bless such a one, even if that authority is a hypocrite (“do not as they do”). Before He ascended, Jesus transfered the Seat of Moses (Teaching Authority) to His Apostles, and promised that the HS would lead them into all Truth.

Please explain, then, why Jesus did not take the thief next to Him when He gave up His spirit? Why did He allow that man to suffer the just consequences of his crimes?

I guess you are saying, if I break my neighbors window, there is no need to make reparation, or restoration. As long as he forgives me, I have no responsibility for the harm I have caused. Honestly, Yankee, this does not even satisfy common sense!

You have misundertood purgatory, indulgences, and temporal punishment. All these things are possible BECAUSE of the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

No, Catholics don’t need any of these things. The doctrine was delivered whole and entire to the Church before the NT was written. The NT was never intended to contain everything in the faith.

No, Yankee, we do not deny the all sufficiency of Christ’s atonement. However, I do undertand why it seems that way to you, since you do not understand the Catholic doctrine. Your perception of it is so skewed, it makes sense that you would come to this conclusion based upon the false premise you make.

It seems that you have been steeped in a tradition that has many departures from the Apostolic Faith. I hope your hostility and prejudice will not prevent you from learning how erroneous these ideas really are.

It is interesting that you should close with this, since this post has at least five other topics brought up in it. At least you seem to realize that your intense hostility toward Catholicism prevents you from being able to focus.

I have no hostility toward catholics. I used to be one…

As for being steeped in tradition, that’s funny because its the RCC that has many many traditions that can’t be traced back to the apostles. I believe only what the Scriptures teaches, not man made traditions/doctrines.

No, Yankee, we do not deny the all sufficiency of Christ’s atonement

Hebrews says : Christ purifies the sinner who turns to him in true repentance. Christ effected man’s purgation.

The catholic says: No, Jesus, you didn’t completely purify me!

God ordained man’s cleansing must be with blood. There’s no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.

The catholic says: No, your blood doesn’t cleanse me, I must be cleansed in purgatory!

1 John 1:9 says God is faithful to forgive and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. God also promises to remember our old repented sins no more.

The catholic still holds on to these sins and waits for purgatory to suffer for them even though God no longer remembers them!

Gospel means: “good news”. is this good news that one must suffer horribly for an unknown duration after death?!

If you believe one cannot understand the Scriptures on his own, then why is it that the RCC has only a handful of Scripture passages which they have unanimous interpretation on?

Anyway, this is the purgatory thread…

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I have no hostility toward catholics. I used to be one…

As for being steeped in tradition, that’s funny because its the RCC that has many many traditions that can’t be traced back to the apostles. I believe only what the Scriptures teaches, not man made traditions/doctrines…

Great. Another poorly Catechised Catholic who bought into simplistic protestant propoganda.

You do realize, don’t you, that going by “scripture alone” IS a manmade tradition?

 

[PRmerger]

I believe only what the Scriptures teaches…

That’s not quite true, yankee.

The Scriptures do not teach what books belong in the canon of Scripture.

So you accept the teaching of Sacred Tradition on that one!

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I have no hostility toward catholics. I used to be one…

As for being steeped in tradition, that’s funny because its the RCC that has many many traditions that can’t be traced back to the apostles. I believe only what the Scriptures teaches, not man made traditions/doctrines…

Great. Another poorly Catechised Catholic who bought into simplistic protestant propoganda.

You do realize, don’t you, that going by “scripture alone” IS a manmade tradition?

WATCH:

youtube.com/watch?v=9NEdWnjvqHw&feature=PlayList&p=C626D3E1EA3E26B2&index=11

.

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[Thing]

Yankee Doodle:

I believe only what the Scriptures teaches, not man made traditions/doctrines.

Hebrews says : Christ purifies the sinner who turns to him in true repentance. Christ effected man’s purgation.

The catholic says: No, Jesus, you didn’t completely purify me!

36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. - Jesus says.

 

[guanophore]

I have no hostility toward catholics. I used to be one…

I did not say “catholics”, I said “Catholicism”. And clearly, you did not used to be one. Perhaps you were baptized Catholic, and maybe you, like me, grew up on a “Catholic” family, but you clearly never understood or embraced the faith. If you had, you would not have so many misconceptions and misunderstandings of it. You were poorly catechized, or not at all, and did not have adequate spiritual formation.

As for being steeped in tradition, that’s funny because its the RCC that has many many traditions that can’t be traced back to the apostles. I believe only what the Scriptures teaches, not man made traditions/doctrines.

You don’t seem to realize this, Yankee, but that in itself is an extrabiblical tradition. Do you realize that the Bible actually shows the oppposite? You don’t seem to have any clue as to the difference between traditions of men, and Sacred Tradition. If you had been Catholic, you would know this.

Hebrews says : Christ purifies the sinner who turns to him in true repentance. Christ effected man’s purgation.

The catholic says: No, Jesus, you didn’t completely purify me!

Yankee, I will have to ask you to show a Catholic source for this assertion,.

this is not the teaching of the Catholic Church, but if you think you can find someplace that says that, we can talk about how it is you misunderstood what you have read. Unless, of course, it is your goal to foment deception here, in which case, that discussion will not be beneficial.

God ordained man's cleansing must be with blood. There's no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.

The catholic says: No, your blood doesn’t cleanse me, I must be cleansed in purgatory!

Yankee, it really does not seem that you are here to learn about Catholicism, since this misunderstanding has already been addressed previously in this thread. I encourage you, if you are only here to disparage our faith, please consider finding another venue. CAF is here to give “Catholic Answers” to people who have sincere questions. These threads are not provided as a place for you to slash and tear at the Body of Christ.

 1 John 1:9 says God is faithful to forgive and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. God also promises to remember  our old repented sins no more.

The catholic still holds on to these sins and waits for purgatory to suffer for them even though God no longer remembers them!

is right. It is really concerning that you would post these lies here. It is spiritually very dangerous. Even if you do not agree with the doctrine of Purgatory, to post deliberate deceptions is a violation of the Commandment.

Gospel means: "good news". is this good news that one must suffer horribly for an unknown duration after death?!

The truth is, Yankee, that many of us suffer horribly in this life, never mind the age to come. The good news is not that we are spared suffering, but that we now have the ability to unite our suffering with His on the cross, and suffering now has benefit, both eternal, and temporal.

If you believe one cannot understand the Scriptures on his own, then why is it that the RCC has only a handful of Scripture passages which they have unanimous interpretation on?

This is a very good question, but off topic in this thread. Clearly one can understand the Scriptures on their own. This is why we have such a plethora of ecclesial commmuniites!

 

[guanophore]

That’s not quite true, yankee.

The Scriptures do not teach what books belong in the canon of Scripture.

So you accept the teaching of Sacred Tradition on that one!

Good point! Let’s try not to feed into his going off topic, though. He has so much anti-Catholic sentiment, it is already hard for him to focus.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

A little injection of basic common sense and two basic Biblical principles:

Principle 1: We are sinners and we are not perfect, and we are such even at the moment of our deaths. Thats just a fact.

Principle 2: Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelation 21:27)

Ergo, between death and heaven MUST come a final cleansing - “purging” - of any imperfections we still have in us. There is no way to escape that simple fact.

 

[PRmerger]

Good point! Let’s try not to feed into his going off topic, though. He has so much anti-Catholic sentiment, it is already hard for him to focus.

Indeed.

I simply find it illogical how a “Bible Christian” can disparage Sacred Tradition; it seems so obvious to me that if there’s no Sacred Tradition, there’s no Sacred Scripture.

The only explanation for this mystifying logic is that the obfuscation is the result of the evil one. Doesn’t he rejoice in this illogic?

 

[moondweller]

That’s not quite true, yankee.

The Scriptures do not teach what books belong in the canon of Scripture.

So you accept the teaching of Sacred Tradition on that one!

That’s true, but once accepted we don’t go outside of the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures and build our own doctrines. Everything we need to walk in “obedience of faith” has been preserved for us in those sacred writings. There’s no need for extrabiblical doctrines like purgatory. But rather:2 Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired (theopneustos) by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."Not believing God’s Word is what got Adam in trouble in the first place and, consequently, all his posterity “in him” as well. It’s in the Scriptures that we learn of the “finished” redemptive work of the “second Man,” the “Last Adam,” and all who the true believer is now "in Him: “washed,” “sanctified” and “justified” (1 Cor. 6:11). Invariably, extrabiblical doctrines, formed by men, deny what the theopneustos Scriptures have revealed concerning sin, Christ and salvation. What Paul wrote to the churches in the area of Galatia rings true to this very day: “A little leaven leavens the whole lump.”

 

[PRmerger]

That’s true, but once accepted we don’t go outside of the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures and build our own doctrines.

LOL!!!

Do you have a Scripture verse that tells you to go outside of Scripture just this once, but then never again?

I think this is another extra-biblical tradition you claim. We’re compiling quite a list here, moon!

But, I think you are one step closer to the fullness of truth in admitting that you did go outside of Scripture–and acquiesed to Sacred Tradition–to get the canon of Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

Everything we need to walk in “obedience of faith” has been preserved for us in those sacred writings.

Well, as you’ve just admitted, not everything was preserved in those sacred writings.

You had to rely on Sacred Tradition for that canon.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

…don’t go outside of the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures and build our own doctrines…

Where does the Bible say that?

…Not believing God’s Word is what got Adam in trouble in the first place…

Your mistake is that you think the Word of God is a book. Its is not. The Word took on flesh: The Word lives and breathes: The Word is Jesus. Everything Jesus said, and everything that the Apostles taught in His Name, is the Word of God. Do you think that every word uttered by Jesus and the Apostles is contained in the Gospels and the Epistles? Of course not!

The Bible was never meant to be a complete work of theology. The NT is merely a collection of four Gospel accounts and a handful of letters of correction to certain communities. It is not an exaustive treatise of all Christian beliefs.

 

[moondweller]

Again you seem to have no clue what it means to have attachment to sin. You must be a very pure man.

I am, I’ve been washed:Rev 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood."The Greek word used for “washed” here is from the root word “louo,” which basically means “to bathe.” God’s Word explicitly reveals to us that Christ has bathed (washed) every true believer, once for all, from their sins, not in the future with "purifying fires, but “in His own blood.” When one has been bathed with the blood of Christ, obviously there’s no further cleansing needed. That’s why you will not, can not, do not find your doctrine of purgatory with its “purifying fires” in the Scriptures. To claim that the believer is yet to suffer himself for cleansing renders the blood of Christ insufficient, if not useless.

Now go to 1 Cor. 6:11:"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."The Greek word for “washed” in this passage is from the root word “apolouo” which means “to wash off, or away, fully.” As dirt has no more attachment to the one who has bathed in water, so the true believer has no more “attachments to sin” having had his sins fully washed off by the blood of Christ.

You see, guanophore, your doctrine of purgatory, which is taught nowhere in the Scriptures, denies this fundamental, Divinely revealed truth of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. There are no so-called “attachments to sin” or “effects of sin” (a nonbiblical doctrine) that need yet to be “burned off” by one’s own personal suffering in so-called “purifying fires,” when he/she has been fully washed clean of all sins by sacrificial blood. And not just “common” blood, my friend, but Christ’s own blood.

What God had to do to fully cleanse sinful men of all sins, He has revealed it to us in His written Word. And He has revealed to us that He has DONE it, once for all, by sacrificial BLOOD - not fire. The only thing that is required of men to receive this cleansing is to BELIEVE what God has said concerning Christ. Purgatory, OTOH, with its “purifying fires,” is a doctrine formed by men out of unbelief in what God Himself has already said concerning the blood of Christ and the power of it to cleanse a sinner, once for all.

You keep saying we don’t understand purgatory. Why is there a need to understand something that was never Divinely revealed? What needs to be understood by all men (nay, believed) is the power of Christ’s blood to fully wash sinful men of all sins.

 

[guanophore]

A little injection of basic common sense and two basic Biblical principles:

Principle 1: We are sinners and we are not perfect, and we are such even at the moment of our deaths. Thats just a fact.

Principle 2: Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelation 21:27)

Ergo, between death and heaven MUST come a final cleansing - “purging” - of any imperfections we still have in us. There is no way to escape that simple fact.

I have learned two important things about this on this threat. Moon is identified with the Risen Christ, in whom there is no imperfection, and therefore, is instantly ready to enter heaven.

The other is that the unclean do enter heaven (from his point of view), though it won’t be this way in the future. It seems that Moon believes there is no way for the angels (including fallen ones) to present themselves before God unless they are in heaven.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I am, I’ve been washed… …The Greek word used for “washed” here is from the root word “louo,” which basically means “to bathe.”…

Well, its nice that you took a bath. Now, as I said previously, lets have a little injection of basic common sense and two basic Biblical principles:

Principle 1: We are sinners and we are not perfect, and we are such even at the moment of our deaths. Thats just a fact.

Principle 2: Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelation 21:27)

Ergo, between death and heaven MUST come a final cleansing - “purging” - of any imperfections we still have in us. There is no way to escape that simple fact.

 

[moondweller]

The Bible was never meant to be a complete work of theology. The NT is merely a collection of four Gospel accounts and a handful of letters of correction to certain communities. It is not an exaustive treatise of all Christian beliefs.

Ah-huh. Interesting, though, that Luke should record:Luke 24:44-45 "Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,"There were PLENTY of Jewish, extrabiblical traditions in that day. He didn’t open their minds to understand them. Why do you think?

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Ah-huh. Interesting, though, that Luke should record:
Luke 24:44-45 "Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,"
There were PLENTY of Jewish, extrabiblical traditions in that day. He didn’t open their minds to understand them. Why do you think?

Not one word in that quote says that the Bible was meant to be a complete work of theology or that it is an exaustive treatise of all Christian beliefs.

You are reading you pre-conceived POV into the text. It does not say what you are trying to make it say

 

[moondweller]

Well, its nice that you took a bath. Now, as I said previously, lets have a little injection of basic common sense and two basic Biblical principles:

Principle 1: We are sinners and we are not perfect, and we are such even at the moment of our deaths. Thats just a fact.

Principle 2: Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelation 21:27)

Ergo, between death and heaven MUST come a final cleansing - “purging” - of any imperfections we still have in us. There is no way to escape that simple fact.

That’s according to your tradition, not the Word of God. According to what is written, every true believer enters heaven having already been washed in the blood of Christ. That’s not just “a little injection of basic common sense,” but Divinely revealed truth. Divinely revealed truth does not always make much sense to the “common” man. But to the spiritual man who has believed what God has said, it certainly does, and he rejoices in it.

 

[moondweller]

Not one word in that quote says that the Bible was meant to be a complete work of theology or that it is an exaustive treatise of all Christian beliefs.

You are reading you pre-conceived POV into the text. It does not say what you are trying to make it say

You didn’t answer my question.