purgatory

[moondweller]

Yes, both things are true. Baptism does not remove our inclination to sin (the old man/flesh).

I said nothing about baptism. As for the old man/old self, it was crucified with Christ:Rom 6:6-7 "…knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin."This is called the “mystery of Christ,” my friend, into which Paul had insight and taught to the churches, and the Holy Spirit, through him, preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures (Eph. 3:4). He whose “old self” was crucified with Christ certainly can have no “attachments” to sin, as Paul teaches, “he who has died is freed from sin.” If he’s “freed from sin” there are no “attachments.”

So there you have it, guanophore, not only is the true believer fully washed from all sins by the blood of Christ, but all who he was in Adam (the “old self”) was crucified with Christ and he is now, like Christ, “freed from sin” having been raised to new life with Christ. Purgatory just doesn’t fit into this Divine revelation concerning the believer and Christ crucified and resurrected. That’s why you don’t find it taught in the Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

No, Irish. It is only a “fact” for the rest of humanity. Did you not read Moon’s post? Don’t you realize that his identity is hidden with Christ, in God?

That’s very Biblical for you to say. :thumbsup:Col 3:3 “For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

That’s very Biblical for you to say.

I’m quite sure she was being sarcastic

 

[moondweller]

But what you fail to address is the process by which that is made possible.

My cleansing? I didn’t fail to address it. It was made possible by the crucifixion of the Son of God. It was made actual at the time I BELIEVED in Him.

Thats what Purgatory is, the process by which that is made possible.At the moment of death you are still a sinner.

No, my friend, at the moment of true faith in Christ I was made a SAINT (a holy one). I am no longer identified as a “sinner.” That identity belongs to unbelievers. See Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2; Heb. 13:24.

But you say that according to the Scriptures we enter immediately into the presence of Christ “cleansed”. What you are failing to address is: How do we get cleansed between death and entering into the presence of Christ."

I didn’t address it because there is no process of cleansing between death and entering into the presence of Christ. Once washed in the blood of Christ, one need not repeat it. That’s why there will come a time in the future when a generation of believers will not even experience death but be instantly translated from mortal to immortal, and taken up straight to be with the Lord in the air. How can that be? Because they’ve been washed in His blood. No more cleansing needed. The blood of Christ is infinitely powerful when dealing with sins - ALL of them. It’s makes all who have been bathed in it squeaky clean.

 

[guanophore]

But every true believer, upon death, according to the Scriptures, enters immediately into the presence of Christ “CLEANSED,” having been washed in His blood. I understand, however, that this is not your belief according to your tradition.

For some reason you erroneously believe that Jesus is not present to us during our purification. Why would He be LESS present in the next life to us than He is here? You yourself have said that those who are sealed by His Spirit are eternally united to Him!

The rest of humanity, Moon, are still in the process of being sanctified, and are not as conformed to the image of God as you are. We are still developing our holiness.’

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Co 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

We still have defilement to cleanse. I very much appreciate your participation in this thread, however, as I finally realize that you are not like us, and that is why you have no need for Purgatory. I know, I am a little slow. I can remember at least five Purgatory threads with you ,a nd I just now “got it”!

You have “arrived”. You have even outdistanced the Apostle Paul, who did not even consider that he had already attained this.

 

[moondweller]

I’m quite sure she was being sarcastic

Nonetheless, it was completely Biblical.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

For some reason you erroneously believe that Jesus is not present to us during our purification. Why would He be LESS present in the next life to us than He is here? You yourself have said that those who are sealed by His Spirit are eternally united to Him!

The rest of humanity, Moon, are still in the process of being sanctified, and are not as conformed to the image of God as you are. We are still developing our holiness.’

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Co 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

We still have defilement to cleanse. I very much appreciate your participation in this thread, however, as I finally realize that you are not like us, and that is why you have no need for Purgatory. I know, I am a little slow. I can remember at least five Purgatory threads with you ,a nd I just now “got it”!

You have “arrived”. You have even outdistanced the Apostle Paul, who did not even consider that he had already attained this.

I knew you were being sarcastic

 

[moondweller]

We still have defilement to cleanse.

Right there’s your problem, Guanophore. This is a statement rooted in unbelief.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Right there’s your problem, Guanophore. This is a statement rooted in unbelief.

Simple question. At this time, are you sinless and perfect?

 

[guanophore]

I said nothing about baptism. As for the old man/old self, it was crucified with Christ:Rom 6:6-7 "…knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin."This is called the “mystery of Christ,” my friend, into which Paul had insight and taught to the churches, and the Holy Spirit, through him, preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures (Eph. 3:4). He whose “old self” was crucified with Christ certainly can have no “attachments” to sin, as Paul teaches, “he who has died is freed from sin.” If he’s “freed from sin” there are no “attachments.”

So there you have it, guanophore, not only is the true believer fully washed from all sins by the blood of Christ, but all who he was in Adam (the “old self”) was crucified with Christ and he is now, like Christ, “freed from sin” having been raised to new life with Christ. Purgatory just doesn’t fit into this Divine revelation concerning the believer and Christ crucified and resurrected. That’s why you don’t find it taught in the Scriptures.

I am curious, Moon. Do you consider the description in Rom 7 an illustration, rather than an actual account of his experience?

It seems that, according to the theology you give her, you don’t struggle that way, and neither would Paul.

 

[guanophore]

I’m quite sure she was being sarcastic

Why would l be sarcastic about the scriptures?

 

[guanophore]

My cleansing? … No more cleansing needed. The blood of Christ is infinitely powerful when dealing with sins - ALL of them. It’s makes all who have been bathed in it squeaky clean.

I can’t tell you how valuable this has been for me Moon. I feel like a newly enlightened person.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Why would l be sarcastic about the scriptures?

To make your point with a little panache ?

 

[guanophore]

Right there’s your problem, Guanophore. This is a statement rooted in unbelief.

Indeed, rooted right there in Holy Scripture. However, I believe that it is possible to be cleansed because of the once for all sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. I just believe it happens differently than you do.

 

[guanophore]

Simple question. At this time, are you sinless and perfect?

Of course he is! Any imperfection would be a form of “dross”, so he can’t have that. He is completely identified with the risen Christ, who has no dross, no imperfection. He has already arrived at his eternal destination. In fact, I am not even sure why God even left him here on the planet! He should have been caught up to heaven already, like Enoch.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

and you said you weren’t sarcastic

 

[moondweller]

Indeed, rooted right there in Holy Scripture. However, I believe that it is possible to be cleansed because of the once for all sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. I just believe it happens differently than you do.

You say it “happens,” alluding to a yet future, experience through personal, excruciating pain and suffering by “purifying fires” in your purgatory. I, however, believe the Scriptures that it (the cleansing) “happened” 2000 years ago with blood, entered into at the time of personal belief in Christ. The depth behind His words, “It is finished,” not, "to be finished by you."1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."Washed isn’t something that “happens,” but as noted by the tense (past) of each of those words, it “happened.” Cleansing (as prefigured in the O.T.) is done by blood, not “purifying fires” after death. You’ll never find such a process described in Scripture.

 

[moondweller]

I am curious, Moon. Do you consider the description in Rom 7 an illustration, rather than an actual account of his experience?

It seems that, according to the theology you give her, you don’t struggle that way, and neither would Paul.

Paul’s struggle in Romans seven was, as a Jew, with the Law according to the flesh - as it should be. His deliverance came through Christ, and Christ alone (7:25). He goes on in chapter eight to teach on walking according to the Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

You say it “happens,” alluding to a yet future, experience through personal, excruciating pain and suffering by “purifying fires” in your purgatory.

Well, yes and no. Remember that what we received from the Apostles is that there are some aspects of salvation that occur at Baptism (justification) som that are currently in process, and some that are yet to come. For Catholics, Baptism is 100% efficacious and purifying. However, most people do not die immediately after they are baptized, and do find themselves later falling short of the glory of God.

We believe that our sanctification occurs (happens) in a variety of ways (all because of the blood of Jesus). We are purified by suffering, yes, but we can also grow in holiness through spiritual disciplines. We believe the struggle in Rom 7 describes actual events that Paul expereinced, and that we experience them too, daily. Each time we overcome the flesh through the grace of God, we grow in grace.

I, however, believe the Scriptures that it (the cleansing) “happened” 2000 years ago with blood, entered into at the time of personal belief in Christ. The depth behind His words, “It is finished,” not, “to be finished by you.”

Well, I agree. It would be an error to think that, because God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure, that it is something “finished by us”. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."Washed isn’t something that “happens,” but as noted by the tense (past) of each of those words, it “happened.”

I agree. This passage is a reference to Baptism, at which time we are circumcised in the heart by the HS. This “bath of regeneration” purifies us from all sins, original and personal. There is only one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. it is a done deal, in the past, and all the effects of it complete.

Cleansing (as prefigured in the O.T.) is done by blood, not “purifying fires” after death. You’ll never find such a process described in Scripture.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

Catholics believe the book of Hebrews was written to Christians:

Heb 12:1 … let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith…
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Heb 12:12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
Heb 12:13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
**Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. **Heb 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;
Heb 12:16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
Heb 12:17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
Heb 12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them.
Heb 12:20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.”
Heb 12:21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

If we are already as holy as we ever need to be, why would we be instructed to “strive for holiness”? God has declared us righteous by His blood, and will make us perfect so that we can be part of the assembly. You see, Moon, not all of us are as “perfect” as you, without sin, dross, imperfection and shortcomings. This part of the gospel was written for the rest of us.

 

[guanophore]

Paul’s struggle in Romans seven was, as a Jew, with the Law according to the flesh - as it should be. His deliverance came through Christ, and Christ alone (7:25). He goes on in chapter eight to teach on walking according to the Spirit.

So you believe he is describing something that happened before he was saved? That it no longer happens now that he is “in Christ”?