purgatory

[VociMike]

God doesn’t “offer” us a way to repair our Adamic nature. What He does do, however, is provide a whole new identity in the Last Adam, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

And that “whole new identity” still sins and is still attached to sin. You admitted so yourself. And yet you will not sin in heaven, nor will you be attached to sin in heaven. So I ask again, what will have changed between earth and heaven?

 

[moondweller]

Odell:

What is sad moon is that you fail to realize that we have a tendency to sin and that is an obstacle to complete sanctification. What is sad is you fail to understand the power of the cross. It actually transforms us we have the grace to do Gods will. You fail to see this therefore God covers you. You stay covered moon. As for me I desire no longer to be dung. yes I accept the power of the cross.

What is sad, Odell, is that you completely fail to understand what is revealed in the Scriptures about God having dealt with our sins, once for all, through the sacrifice of His beloved Son on the cross. Such is the power of the cross. The cross doesn’t “transform” anyone to do the will of God. It’s the means by with God now completely, and finally, judicially forgives all the sins (past, present and future) of those who believe in Christ, and saves them, once for all, according to His GRACE (Eph. 2:8-9).

In unbelief of this glorious truth Catholicism has added to Christianity its own doctrine of “temporal punishment.” Based wholly on its equally unbiblical doctrine of “sactifying grace” which, it teaches, is “infused” into the soul at the time of water baptism (infants or adults) making the soul “holy” and inherently pleasing to God. Teaching then that other sacraments and good works further “justify” the soul, making it increasingly attractive to God.

Therefore, the goal of Catholicism (through its sacramental system) is to transform the essential character of the soul into something which is in itself objectively good (VociMike refers to this as a process of making the soul “unfallen”). And based on this human reasoning (not Divine Revelation) the soul would require the complete cleansing of every vestige of sin before it can come into the presence of God. Purgatory being the the humanly logical extension of this Catholic process of salvation. It being an integral part of its penitential system. Teaching (based on its unbelief in what God has revealed concerning sins and the, once for all, blood sacrifice of Christ) that every sin (venial) credits “temporal punishment” to the baptized one’s account. And that acts of penance, suffering, and indulgences debit his account. And the fact that, as a norm, the baptized may not make full satisfaction for sins in this life, “Purgatory” in the afterlife is necessary to balance the ledger.

But according to Biblical salvation (Divine salvation as revealed in the Scriptures) there is no need of such a place as “Purgatory.” And for this reason you don’t find it taught in Scripture.

Biblical salvation doesn’t at all rely on the works or sufferings of “penitent” sinners, but solely upon Christ who “made purification of sins” on the cross - once for all. Therefore, no such thing as “temporal punishment” remains for which the believer must atone. But it’s Scripturally revealed that Jesus Himself is the propitiation for our sins (1 Jn. 2:2; Rom. 3:25; Heb. 2:17; 1 Jn. 4:10). IOW, the sacrificial death and shed blood of Christ completely satisfied (propitiated) the offended holiness of God because of man’s sins. That is, through the propitiatory work of Christ on the cross God IS propitiated. God looks to only one Man, and ONE alone, as the satisfaction of His offended holiness because of sin: the Man Christ Jesus.

The Catholic doctrines of “temporal punishment” and “Purgatory” were added out of unbelief in this glorious, Scripturally revealed truth.

 

[moondweller]

And that “whole new identity” still sins and is still attached to sin. You admitted so yourself. And yet you will not sin in heaven, nor will you be attached to sin in heaven. So I ask again, what will have changed between earth and heaven?

No, my friend, the true believer’s new identity is in the RISEN Christ who died TO sin once for all (Rom. 6:10). The true believer’s new identity now “in Christ” is one who has died TO sin, once for all, with Christ (Rom. 6:2; Col. 3:3). He is no longer identified by God as a sinner in His sight, but a saint (holy one, Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1, etc.), made righteous in Him (Rom. 5:19).

This is all based on Divine Revelation and addressed to faith. It’s what it means for the true believer to “walk by faith.” Faith in what God’s Word has revealed regarding Christ, sin and salvation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No, my friend, the true believer’s new identity is in the RISEN Christ who died TO sin once for all (Rom. 6:10). The true believer’s new identity now “in Christ” is one who has died TO sin, once for all, with Christ (Rom. 6:2; Col. 3:3). He is no longer identified by God as a sinner in His sight, but a saint (holy one, Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1, etc.), made righteous in Him (Rom. 5:19).

This is all based on Divine Revelation and addressed to faith. It’s what it means for the true believer to “walk by faith.” Faith in what God’s Word has revealed regarding Christ, sin and salvation.

I’m curious, Moondweller…

Do you still struggle with sin?

Do you still commit personal sins?

Are there any attachments to the things of this world that you have not been able to break, yet?

These are sincere questions…

 

[VociMike]

I’m curious, Moondweller…

Do you still struggle with sin?

Do you still commit personal sins?

Are there any attachments to the things of this world that you have not been able to break, yet?

These are sincere questions…

He admits that he does still sin, and will continue to sin on this earth:

In this yet unredeemed body I will sin until the day I die, or, be taken up to be with the Lord at His coming for His church.

So he implicitly acknowledges the need for a process of perfection and purification upon death, while he explicitly rejects that need. And he doesn’t even seem to notice the contradiction.

 

[Randy_Carson]

He admits that he does still sin, and will continue to sin on this earth:

So he implicitly acknowledges the need for a process of perfection and purification upon death, while he explicitly rejects that need. And he doesn’t even seem to notice the contradiction.

Ah.

So, at the moment of his death, he will not be perfect…he will not be wearing his wedding garments, so to speak.

Well, when and how does he expect to change?

 

[Techno2000]

Before I looked into the Catholic religion I thought that I had a pretty good grip on what I thought. Well now I see that I believed all this stuff about purgatory but my church never taught anything about it. I am glad that I have learned what the Catholic church teaches

jesus-passion.com/DOLOROUS_PASSION_OF_OUR_LORD_JESUS_CHRIST.htm

angelfire.com/ca3/rafaelmarie/ThePieta/athepieta.html
our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.htmlcatholicforum.com/churches/cathteach/divinemercy1.htm

 

[Des]

What is sad, Odell, is that you completely fail to understand what is revealed in the Scriptures about God having dealt with our sins, once for all, through the sacrifice of His beloved Son on the cross. Such is the power of the cross. The cross doesn’t “transform” anyone to do the will of God. It’s the means by with God now completely, and finally, judicially forgives all the sins (past, present and future) of those who believe in Christ, and saves them, once for all, according to His GRACE (Eph. 2:8-9).

What I find odd is God requires you to make an ACT of faith to believe in Him and be saved, but then you being home free and no longer having to worry about Hell, you’re not required ever again to make an ACT of reconciliation for your sins. He just forgives you and you don’t have to be sorry or lose your Salvation. What an awful doctrine to follow.

Another thing is you obviously believe that all sins are the same in God’s eyes correct? If I say a Christian rapist is saved as well would you say “he was never a Christian in his heart to begin with?” Because if you do, you’re going to have to defend yourself and other protestants who tell lies now and then. Since all sins are the same we’d have to conclude that you never were a Christian to begin with as well.

 

[bookgirl32]

No, my friend, the true believer’s new identity is in the RISEN Christ who died TO sin once for all (Rom. 6:10). The true believer’s new identity now “in Christ” is one who has died TO sin, once for all, with Christ (Rom. 6:2; Col. 3:3). He is no longer identified by God as a sinner in His sight, but a saint (holy one, Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1, etc.), made righteous in Him (Rom. 5:19).

This is all based on Divine Revelation and addressed to faith. It’s what it means for the true believer to “walk by faith.” Faith in what God’s Word has revealed regarding Christ, sin and salvation.

So he is no longer identified by God as a sinner even though he still sins? Or he no longer sins, ever, at all, for the rest of his life on Earth?

 

[bookgirl32]

And that acts of penance, suffering, and indulgences debit his account. And the fact that, as a norm, the baptized may not make full satisfaction for sins in this life, “Purgatory” in the afterlife is necessary to balance the ledger.

You go ahead and keep telling Catholics what they believe, even if it isn’t what they believe. Again, Moon, you are not listening, or don’t want to listen because it screws up your strawman argument. Again, no one believes in your above definition of Purgatory, it is simply incorrect. You do not have to believe in it, but at least get straight what exactly it is.

 

[Odell]

What is sad, Odell, is that you completely fail to understand what is revealed in the Scriptures about God having dealt with our sins, once for all, through the sacrifice of His beloved Son on the cross. Such is the power of the cross.

why then moon did you have to accept Jesus 2000 years after the cross “your sins have been paid for once for all” 2000 years ago

The cross doesn’t “transform” anyone to do the will of God. It’s the means by with God now completely, and finally, judicially forgives all the sins (past, present and future) of those who believe in Christ, and saves them, once for all, according to His GRACE (Eph. 2:8-9).

according to His GRACE you no longer have to sin you are given a way out. moon you do not have to lie, you do not have to steal, you do not have to commit adultery. His cross truly make us free from the law!

In unbelief of this glorious truth Catholicism has added to Christianity its own doctrine of “temporal punishment.”

You have a problem moon

Heb 12: 5-6 You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: “My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him;
for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.”

can i ask you moon how does God discipline us for something he supposedly does not even see?

 

[Odell]

Another thing is you obviously believe that all sins are the same in God’s eyes correct? If I say a Christian rapist is saved as well would you say “he was never a Christian in his heart to begin with?” Because if you do, you’re going to have to defend yourself and other protestants who tell lies now and then. Since all sins are the same we’d have to conclude that you never were a Christian to begin with as well.

“no a Christian rapist is covered” that’s the POWER OF THE CROSS! according to moon

 

[Des]

“no a Christian rapist is covered” that’s the POWER OF THE CROSS! according to moon

Hmm, usually they respond to this by saying he was never a Christian to begin with you know. It’s as if all the testimonies of fallen away Christians who come back to Christ 20 or so years later after sleeping around or denying Him any type of worship are built on lies or falsehoods.

So a believer can either:

• Fall away from Christ and forfeit his/her Salvation.
• Believe, and be saved even after walking away later on.
• Believe and be saved but only if he/she lives long enough to see if they end up coming back of which then we can say, he/she was always a saved Christian and is why he/she came back to God. Of course those unfortunate to die while in the middle of their fallen away period were never saved to begin with.

 

[Odell]

Hmm, usually they respond to this by saying he was never a Christian to begin with you know. It’s as if all the testimonies of fallen away Christians who come back to Christ 20 or so years later after sleeping around or denying Him any type of worship are built on lies or falsehoods.
:

he has a problem

the sin of rape should have been taken care of 2000 years ago. God don’t see the sin he just sees Jesus on the cross 2000 years ago. its covered!

If he doesn’t go this route he would be doing what he claims we do by his own definition he is not given the cross any power. he would be striping the cross of its power according to moon you have a new identity in Christ.

If he goes the route most protestants go and say they were never saved in the first place. Then he would be claiming we are only seen in Christ identity if we say stole a candy bar. But we are not covered if we rape.

He would then claim that you would not commit such a sin as rape if you are truly saved. That translates into Gods grace if you are open to it would keep you away from such a sin as rape but his grace is not good enough to keep you from stealing that candy bar! So he would cover you instead. Got that

 

[Odell]

Moon also has problems with verses such as this

Luke 11:39-40 - the Pharisees cleansed the outside of the cup but inside they were full of wickedness. God demands an internal change and gives us the grace to make that change.

Why would Jesus make a statement like this. If he would cover the cup. Give the cup a new identity, if you are full of wickedness or not. But no Jesus wants that dung turned to snow!

here is some more moon

Ezek. 36:26-27 - a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you. These are interior changes effected by God.

Ezek. 37:23 – the Lord will save His people from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and He will cleanse them (not cover them).

Matt. 5:3,5,8 - blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, and the pure of heart. These are internal dispositions, not just an external reality.

Matt. 5:6; Luke 6:21 - those who hunger for righteousness “may be filled.” It is an inner change, not snow covering up a dunghill.

Matt. 5:20; Luke 1:6; Acts 10:35 - here are more examples of “doing” righteousness, not just being “imputed” external righteousness. We are not just defendants in a courtroom who have been exonerated. We are children of God endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit by whose grace we can become righteous.

Matt. 5:28 - Jesus teaches that just looking lustfully at a woman is adultery. But avoiding this involves an inner change, a response to God’s grace.

Matt. 6:1 - beware of practicing righteousness before men. We are not just declared righteous; we can practice righteousness as well.

Matt. 8:3 – Jesus cleanses the man’s leprosy. Jesus’ power reaches both the external and internal conditions of human beings. See also Matt. 11:5.

Matt. 15:18; Mark 7:15 -Jesus teaches the interior disposition is what defiles man. Thus, God’s infusion of grace changes us interiorly.

Matt. 23:25-28 - the Pharisees appeared outwardly righteous to men, but inside they were filled with hypocrisy. God desires and helps us effect an inner change of heart. He doesn’t just declare that we are righteous.

Luke 11:39-40 - the Pharisees cleansed the outside of the cup but inside they were full of wickedness. God demands an internal change and gives us the grace to make that change.

John 1:29 - Jesus the Lamb of God literally takes away the sin of the world. He does not just cover up the sins of the world.

Acts 3:19 - repent, that your sins may be “blotted” out. The word blotted comes from the Greek word “exalipho” which means an actual wiping away or removal, not a covering up.

Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11 - again, the phrase “wash away” is from the word “apolouo” which mean a literal removal or an infusion of cleansing, not an imputation or covering.

Rom. 4:3 - it was “credited” to him as righteousness. The word “credited” comes from the Greek word “elogisthe” which means a book entry. God records what there actually is; He does not make a phony entry on the books.

 

[VociMike]

Then he would be claiming we are only seen in Christ identity if we say stole a candy bar. But we are not covered if we rape.

He would then claim that you would not commit such a sin as rape if you are truly saved. That translates into Gods grace if you are open to it would keep you away from such a sin as rape but his grace is not good enough to keep you from stealing that candy bar! So he would cover you instead. Got that

This is a line of thought I’ve never understood. All sin is equally deadly, and yet only some sins prove that you were never saved to begin with. How can anybody not see the illogic in that?

 

[paul_c]

Purgatory is implied in every scriptural passage and every action involving praying for the dead. For as we all know, praying for those in Hell can not save them and praying for those in Heaven is not necessary. It can only benefit those in Purgatory, aiding them in theiri cleansing. Most Protestants still pray for their dead, even though they claim to not believe in Purgatory. This is because it built within us to do so.

Most Protestants inherently believe that we must do good works. They may believe that this is simply a demonstration of the faith of the believer, rather than a fulfillment of Faith as Catholics might describe it. But in the end, these differences are verbal semantics: The person who is saved will do works of Love and mercy

Moondweller’s theology is more extreme than most. He believes that Jesus’s sacrifice forgave all sins, past present and future. and that doing good somehow diminishes the saving action of the cross. He believes strongly that regardless of our actions, upon belief we are saved and will be counted as righteous, whether we are or not.

This theology is very problematic because it renders all moral teaching irrelevant. Which is to say, that most of the New Testament is to no effect, including the Sermon on the Mount and all the sections in each Epistle which are devoted to how to live the Christian life. I’ve asked him many times to explain why the New Testament Authors would spend so much time on moral teaching if it had no effect on salvation. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a relevant answer.

.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

paul c:

Moondweller’s theology is more extreme than most. He believes that Jesus’s sacrifice forgave all sins, past present and future. and that doing good somehow diminishes the saving action of the cross. He believes strongly that regardless of our actions, upon belief we are saved and will be counted as righteous, whether we are or not.

This theology is very problematic because it renders all moral teaching irrelevant. Which is to say, that most of the New Testament is to no effect, including the Sermon on the Mount and all the sections in each Epistle which are devoted to how to live the Christian life. I’ve asked him many times to explain why the New Testament Authors would spend so much time on moral teaching if it had no effect on salvation. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a relevant answer.

His theology is none other than “born again christian” theology. It is taught by the Moody Bible Institute, and other Sola Scriptura evangelical schools. It is very common place in America today. It ignores the obvious and concentrates on favorite passages and doctrines. It is blind to the fact that it has imbibed man-made principles and that it is impossible to read the Scriptures without the reader being in some faith context. It teaches that they receive all of their doctrine from Scripture alone, even though their doctrine through which Scripture is viewed is man-made, while Scripture proof-texts their own man-made doctrines. This is the obvious, which they are incapable of seeing.

They deny any need for an authoritative source of Scriptural interpretation, and appeals strongly to the masses who are distrustful of authority.

 

[Odell]

This is a line of thought I’ve never understood. All sin is equally deadly, and yet only some sins prove that you were never saved to begin with. How can anybody not see the illogic in that?

 

[moondweller]

Randy Carson:

I’m curious, Moondweller…
Do you still struggle with sin?
Do you still commit personal sins?
Are there any attachments to the things of this world that you have not been able to break, yet?
These are sincere questions…

Yes, I don’t doubt that they are truly sincere questions. Sincere questions which stem from a sincere unbelief in what God has revealed concerning personal sins and the, once for all, propitiatory, sacrificial work of His Son on the cross.

Do I “struggle” with sin? Define “struggle” and the context in which you’re asking.

Do I still commit personal sins? Absolutely. Is it possible that in the future I personally must suffer in order to be cleansed (purged) of any of these sins? Absolutely not. God’s suffering Servant did, once for all, on the cross in my stead when He Himself made purification of sins, when “He (God) made Him (the Man Christ Jesus, the incarnate Son) who knew no sin {to be} sin on our (my) behalf, so that we (I) might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor 5:21).

Do I have any attachment to the things of this world? I’m attached to my house by mortgage, my job by contract and salary, etc. But none of these are sinful. However, if you’re asking if I’m “attached” to any sins of this world, then, no, I am not. I have died TO sin with Christ and God now sees me in His RISEN Son. My “attachment” to sin is the same as Christ’s, “dead to it” (Rom. 6:2,7; Col. 3:3)

The sins I commit in this world do not follow me into paradise. God dealt with them, once for all, at Calvary, imputing them to Christ, and He DIED in my stead, and rose to new LIFE - and me with Him. In the risen Christ there’s no place for such things as “temporal punishment” or “Purgatory.” All true believers are no longer in Adam but now in the risen Christ - the “Last Adam,” in Whom there is no sin. This is what it means to be saved.