purgatory

[moondweller]

Des:

What I find odd is God requires you to make an ACT of faith to believe in Him and be saved,

This is not true. He requires that I believe His Word concerning His Son and what He accomplished through His, once for all, sacrificial ACT on my behalf. I contend that the added Catholic doctrines of “temporal punishment” and “Purgatory” stem from unbelief in what God has revealed concerning sins and the sacrificial ACT of Jesus Christ and His subsequent, bodily resurrection. And for this reason you find neither of these doctrines in Scripture (hence, “added”).

Another thing is you obviously believe that all sins are the same in God’s eyes correct? If I say a Christian rapist is saved as well would you say “he was never a Christian in his heart to begin with?” Because if you do, you’re going to have to defend yourself and other protestants who tell lies now and then. Since all sins are the same we’d have to conclude that you never were a Christian to begin with as well.

Your questioning is based on the false notion that men are saved by not sinning. But according to God’s Word all men are saved “by grace through faith.” Not by not sinning.

I would certainly doubt the salvation of a “rapist” (actively involved). I would doubt the salvation of a habitual liar, as well. But God saves even the most vile of sinners when he or she, convicted of their sins (a work of the Holy Spirit) turns from unbelief to belief in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ on their behalf. Such men and women are then spiritually regenerated by the same Holy Spirit who convicted them of their sins, and this spiritual regeneration becomes evident to all, and the spiritually reborn believer now publicly proclaims his belief in Christ and desires to live for God and is now consciously aware of the smallest of sins. Notice the separation of unbelievers and believers in the following verses:1 Cor 6:9-11 "*Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God*."Your questioning reveals to me that you seem to have no idea what spiritual rebirth and regeneration is. You’re probably under the false notion that water baptism is the cause of them. Hence, you call all water baptized people “Christians.” But water baptism has no power to spiritually regenerate anyone, or cause one to be born again. There have been many rapists who were baptized (especially as an infant), but that didn’t make them a true Christian, and certainly not a true believer. There certainly can be a rapist who was baptized, but there can be no such thing as a rapist who is a true believer.

 

[moondweller]

bookgirl32:

So he is no longer identified by God as a sinner even though he still sins?

That’s correct.

Or he no longer sins, ever, at all, for the rest of his life on Earth?

That is not correct.1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world.

You go ahead and keep telling Catholics what they believe, even if it isn’t what they believe.

Please go back here and point out to me where I have falsely presented Catholic doctrine.

Again, Moon, you are not listening, or don’t want to listen because it screws up your strawman argument.

Please point out to me what is “sham” (strawman) about my argument?

Again, no one believes in your above definition of Purgatory, it is simply incorrect.

Please tell men what’s incorrect about it.

You do not have to believe in it, but at least get straight what exactly it is.

I sincerely believe I was and presented it exactly how it is taught according to the CCC.

 

[moondweller]

Odell:

why then moon did you have to accept Jesus 2000 years after the cross “your sins have been paid for once for all” 2000 years ago

Christ accomplished the work of redemption 2000 years ago, but His work of redemption (also reconciliation and propitiation) are applied to the believer, in full, at the time of personal belief in Him. God has ordained it: "For by grace you have been saved through faith…"Acts 16:29-31 "And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…"To believe in Him is to believe what He has DONE, once for all.

according to His GRACE you no longer have to sin you are given a way out. moon you do not have to lie, you do not have to steal, you do not have to commit adultery. His cross truly make us free from the law!

First of all, the Law never caused anyone to sin. It exposed one to be a sinner through many transgressions of Commandments (Law, “letters engraved on stones”). For this reason Scripture tells us that the 10 Commandments were a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:4-10). Secondly, the Covenant of Law (Mosaic) came to an end at the cross of Christ (Rom. 10:4) and it’s now the present ministry of the Spirit that gives life (the Law never could, Gal. 3:21), and this in accordance with grace and faith.2 Cor 3:15-17 "But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, {there} is liberty."The Scriptures do not teach that being free from Law (i.e., under its jurisdiction/condemnation) one is free from sinning. But ratherRom 6:7 "…for he who has died is freed from sin."Not free from sinning. This is all in reference to the believer having died with Christ TO sin, once for all.

You have a problem moon

Heb 12: 5-6 You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: “My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.”

can i ask you moon how does God discipline us for something he supposedly does not even see?

Actually you have the problem with interpretation. The exhortation is to SONS whom the Lord LOVES. That’s why He disciplines them in the first place. I didn’t say He doesn’t “see” sins. God is certainly a realist. But the believer’s trespasses are not held against him (2 Cor. 5:19) since the certificate of debt was canceled, and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Col. 2:14).

This is what you have a hard time believing, hence, your belief in the added doctrines of “temporal punishment” and “Purgatory.”

Salvation is gifted upon believing, not behaving. Behaving follows believing; and the exhortations to good conduct are expressed to the saved, not “to be saved.” God disciplines His sons. As the Psalmist said, “He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

Do I still commit personal sins? Absolutely. Is it possible that in the future I personally must suffer in order to be cleansed (purged) of any of these sins? Absolutely not. God’s suffering Servant did, once for all, on the cross in my stead when He Himself made purification of sins, when “He (God) made Him (the Man Christ Jesus, the incarnate Son) who knew no sin {to be} sin on our (my) behalf, so that we (I) might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor 5:21).

Does purgatory have to do with the forgiveness of sins? Or does it have to do with the temporal effects of those sins?

I am sure that at the moment you die, you may (or may not) be forgiven. You are destined for heaven or hell at that moment, and purgatory does not offer you a second chance.

However, will you already be prepared for entrance into the wedding banquet? Or will it be necessary for you to take a shower and shave first, so to speak?

Do I have any attachment to the things of this world? I’m attached to my house by mortgage, my job by contract and salary, etc. But none of these are sinful. However, if you’re asking if I’m “attached” to any sins of this world, then, no, I am not. I have died TO sin with Christ and God now sees me in His RISEN Son. My “attachment” to sin is the same as Christ’s, “dead to it” (Rom. 6:2,7; Col. 3:3)

If you are no longer attached to the things of this world, why are you attracted to them to the degree that you actually continue to commit personal sins? I don’t know what your personal attachments might be, but we all have them: maybe its pornography, drugs, or alcohol. Maybe its selfishness, pride, envy or anger. Whatever it may be, I am fairly confident that you still have attachments to things of this world that are inappropriate for the kingdom of God. When do you lose these if you still have them at the moment of death?

All true believers are no longer in Adam but now in the risen Christ - the “Last Adam,” in Whom there is no sin. This is what it means to be saved.

I presume, then, that true believers cannot lose their salvation since they are now in Christ, correct?

 

[Odell]

First off never said the law caused anyone to sin moon. Second freedom of the law means we no longer need the law because our hearts should be conformed to Gods. We are under a new law. That is my friend a law of love. Do you desire to kill your best friend moon? Assuming you do not you are free from the law thou shall not kill thy best friend your heart conforms to the will of God. When you are truly in Christ your heart will conform to his and you will truly be free of the law. Because you no longer desire to break the law. I will answer more when I’m in front of a computer and not on my phone.

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller,
Yours is the most hollow of theologies and has the lowest valuation of man. In your theology, Man has no responsibility whatsoever. He has no free will, he has no need for reason or morality. By the grace of God, he believes and is saved or doens’t beleive and is condemned. I wonder why you even bother evangelizing on the internet for this position, since it doesn’t matter for your salvation and it won’t help your targets either, who are already predestined to heaven or hell. In fact, the very act of your evangelization work seems to contradict the premise you support. Do you think you can help Jesus, who did all the work 2000 years ago? Don’t you see the logical contradictions?

The fact is, God gave us reason and free will and expects us to use them. He does not demand that we follow him, but encourages and desires it. But it is up to us to embrace his grace and love. We do that initially through the sacrament of baptism. That act demonstrates in a real way that we desire to be part of his Church and to live the life of love that he desires for us. From that point on, we are expected to do his will. If we do that , loving God and others, until we die, then we will be able to join him in heaven… If however, we turn form God through sin, we need to take tangible steps to reconcile to him. This is done through the sacrament of reconciliation.

You say that sin doesn’t matter. - because you believe that Jesus died for our sins. Well he did, but once we die with him in baptism, we must be reborn with him, and not sin. There is a huge difference between what we beleive: that you must not sin and what you beleive: Sin is okay, because Jesus has already paid for them. If you were Satan, which theology would you be happier to have people embrace?

Now you may personally be holy and sinfree. But you must recognize that when you tell people that sin doesn’t matter to God, you are doing them a great disservice but Sin is turning away from God, by definition. How can you expect to turn away from God and still join him in heaven. Aren’t those contradictory statements?

 

[ncgolf]

Does purgatory have to do with the forgiveness of sins? Or does it have to do with the temporal effects of those sins?

You are right in making this important distinction. Purgatory is not about sin but about perfection. Paul and Peter give beautiful passages on faith, love and the increasing perfection required of the faithful. It is no doubt that faith is the cornerstone on which our Christian life begins but it is not the end. Paul says love is the greatest and in Peter’s writing faith is just the beginning of the increasing perfections (virtue) of the believer.

It is not because they are faithless that one is in purgatory but not yet perfect. Peter gives testimony that one is called to ever increasing virtue, ever increasing holiness so that in the end one loves perfectly. This is why Paul ends with love being the greatest and Peter ends with “mutual affection with love” in verse 7.

The question is can the faithful be lacking in love, humility, perseverance, self-control, etc … while still being faithful on earth … yes they can. This lacking is the effect of sin … not sin itself.

1 Corintians 13 1-13
1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, 5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, 6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. 9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. 12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. **13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. **

2 Peter 1 5-11
5 .** For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, 6 knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, 7 devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love** 8 If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. 11 For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you

 

[VociMike]

Do I still commit personal sins? Absolutely. Is it possible that in the future I personally must suffer in order to be cleansed (purged) of any of these sins? Absolutely not.

You’re still having a hard time comprehending what we are telling you. If you still sin now, and if you will never, ever sin or desire to sin in heaven, then something in your innermost makeup must change when you die. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this obvious fact?

 

[moondweller]

Does purgatory have to do with the forgiveness of sins? Or does it have to do with the temporal effects of those sins?

I already dealt with this Catholic issue here. Please read it.

I am sure that at the moment you die, you may (or may not) be forgiven. You are destined for heaven or hell at that moment, and purgatory does not offer you a second chance.

Forgiveness of sins does not occur at the moment of physical death, but at the moment of belief. One is not destined for heaven at the moment of physical death, but at the moment of belief.

However, will you already be prepared for entrance into the wedding banquet? Or will it be necessary for you to take a shower and shave first, so to speak?

I have already been made ready in Christ. What comes next is standing before the judgment seat of Christ to received whatever rewards I may be given based on the quality of my works. But my salvation was GIFTED to me at the time I personally believed in the gospel message of what Christ has DONE.

If you are no longer attached to the things of this world, why are you attracted to them to the degree that you actually continue to commit personal sins?

I have been redeem from ALL my sins: past, present and future. Christ bore them ALL on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). Hence, there is no room for “temporal punishment” or a place called “Purgatory.” That’s why neither of them are found in Scripture. No Apostle taught on them. Those doctrines were ADDED later by men in unbelief.

When do you lose these if you still have them at the moment of death?

I don’t “have” them. Go back and read my posts.

I presume, then, that true believers cannot lose their salvation since they are now in Christ, correct?

Ever so correct. Can Jesus go back to the grave?

 

[moondweller]

You’re still having a hard time comprehending what we are telling you. If you still sin now, and if you will never, ever sin or desire to sin in heaven, then something in your innermost makeup must change when you die. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this obvious fact?

Something in my “innermost makeup” DID change. But it changed at the moment of *personal belief *in Christ. It doesn’t happen at death - that’s too late.

 

[VociMike]

Something in my “innermost makeup” DID change. But it changed at the moment of *personal belief *in Christ. It doesn’t happen at death - that’s too late.

So you will sin up to the moment of death, and after that you will never ever sin, nor desire to sin, and yet nothing about you will have changed? That’s absurd.

If nothing will change when you don’t sin in heaven, then why in the world don’t you stop sinning now? Why don’t you live the rest of your life without any sin or desire to sin? Well, why not?

Is it that you can stop sinning but refuse to stop? Or is it that you can’t stop sinning?

 

[paul_c]

I already dealt with this Catholic issue here. Please read it.Forgiveness of sins does not occur at the moment of physical death, but at the moment of belief. One is not destined for heaven at the moment of physical death, but at the moment of belief.I have already been made ready in Christ. What comes next is standing before the judgment seat of Christ to received whatever rewards I may be given based on the quality of my works. But my salvation was GIFTED to me at the time I personally believed in the gospel message of what Christ has DONE.
I have been redeem from ALL my sins: past, present and future. Christ bore them ALL on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). Hence, there is no room for “temporal punishment” or a place called “Purgatory.” That’s why neither of them are found in Scripture. No Apostle taught on them. Those doctrines were ADDED later by men in unbelief.I don’t “have” them. Go back and read my posts.Ever so correct. Can Jesus go back to the grave?

Where is it said that foregiveness of future sins occurs at the point of belief?

 

[ncgolf]

Something in my “innermost makeup” DID change. But it changed at the moment of *personal belief *in Christ. It doesn’t happen at death - that’s too late.

The innermost change occurs at Baptism … not at the time of “personal” belief.

 

[Odell]

.Actually you have the problem with interpretation. The exhortation is to SONS whom the Lord LOVES. That’s why He disciplines them in the first place. ** I didn’t say He doesn’t “see**” sins. God is certainly a realist. But the believer’s trespasses are not held against him (2 Cor. 5:19) since the certificate of debt was canceled, and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Col. 2:14).
"

So, what does God discipline his sons for there obedience? Or for there trespasses that you admittedly say he can see?:coffeeread:

 

[bookgirl32]

That’s correct.

Okay, so you are perfect, now, not once you get to Heaven.

That is not correct.1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world.

Okay, well that contradicts what you just said above. This verse reveals that these words are so we may not sin (meaning we still can), and that we have an Advocate when we do sin. Why do we any longer need an advocate if we are no longer “sinners”? This passage is speaking to the people in present tense: “we have an advocate”, not we “had” an advocate. So why do we still need an advocate if all the work is done?

You said this:

To believe in Him is to believe what He has DONE, once for all.

So is the above verse contradicting you? Or some other part of the Bible? Because, again, speaking in present tense, it is implying that there is still a need for an advocate, an advocate for those who in your definition have already been saved.

Please go back here and point out to me where I have falsely presented Catholic doctrine.Please point out to me what is “sham” (strawman) about my argument?Please tell men what’s incorrect about it.I sincerely believe I was and presented it exactly how it is taught according to the CCC.

You’ve said this:

The sins I commit in this world do not follow me into paradise.

implying that we think that they do
and
this:

And the fact that, as a norm, the baptized may not make full satisfaction for sins in this life, “Purgatory” in the afterlife is necessary to balance the ledger.

we have never claimed that it is necessary to “balance the ledger”, only to cleanse because “nothing unclean” can enter.
oh, yeah, and these two:

Catholic Purgatory has to do with SINS.

Again, Catholic Purgatory has to do with men suffering for the cleansing of their SINS (so-called “venial”).

Which is the main part of your “sham” since we have assured you over, and over, and over again that in Purgatory there is NO sin.

As for the post you referenced, this:

Therefore, the goal of Catholicism (through its sacramental system) is to transform the essential character of the soul into something which is in itself objectively good

is 100% completely a false representation of Catholic doctrine. I really like how you added that word, “objectively”. Even if you don’t agree, I don’t think it’s that hard to at least acknowledge that we are claiming that Jesus’ death gave us the grace to become something good (like Him, like He wants us to be) IN HIM, and NOT OF OURSELVES. Please find something in the catechism or official Catholic teaching showing that it believes that “the goal of the Church” is to make one “objectively” good.

You can claim you sincerely believe what you stated, but you are also sincerely accusing all of us of being liars about what we ourselves believe after pages and pages of documented writing in this thread have explained, in a myriad of different ways, that what you believe about the Church is incorrect. I’m not asking you to agree with us, only be honest and acknowledge what we’ve said to you.

 

[bookgirl32]

Does purgatory have to do with the forgiveness of sins? Or does it have to do with the temporal effects of those sins?

He either does not understand or refuses to try to figure out the difference between those two.

 

[bookgirl32]

Something in my “innermost makeup” DID change. But it changed at the moment of *personal belief *in Christ. It doesn’t happen at death - that’s too late.

What exactly changed in YOUR innermost makeup? Not what did Christ do or how did He MAKE it change, but WHAT changed?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

Christ accomplished the work of redemption 2000 years ago, but His work of redemption (also reconciliation and propitiation) are applied to the believer, in full, at the time of personal belief in Him. God has ordained it: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

Acts 16:29-31 "And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."

Is this your justification for your man made doctrines of “personal belief?”

Don’t you take note of the fact that Paul (and Silas) say “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” He doesn’t say “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you are saved.” That is what he should have said to be a TRUE born again Christian, that at the time of personal belief in Him he IS saved, not WILL be saved.

 

[bookgirl32]

Since I’ve been very involved in this thread I felt I had to post that I will be leaving this, and all threads I’m involved in, for a little while. My child just informed me, “you’re on the computer too much.” He’s right . It’s been a good discussion, thanks!

 

[Randy_Carson]

I already dealt with this Catholic issue here. Please read it.

Your link didn’t really answer my question.

Forgiveness of sins does not occur at the moment of physical death, but at the moment of belief.

I am not suggesting that forgiveness OCCURS at that moment, but that you are either FORGIVEN or NOT FORGIVEN of the sins that you have already committed when you die…I’m not referring to a process but to a state.

One is not destined for heaven at the moment of physical death, but at the moment of belief.I have already been made ready in Christ.

This is incorrect. One may have believed 25 years ago but committed mortal sins which have not been forgiven in the intervening years. Consequently, at the moment of death one is either in a state of grace or one is not. Therefore, you are either bound for heaven or for hell depending upon the state of your soul at the moment of death. It is not decided at that moment but revealed to you at that moment, because despite your protestations to the contrary, there is no assurance of salvation based upon a one-time recitation of the sinner’s prayer.

But my salvation was GIFTED to me at the time I personally believed in the gospel message of what Christ has DONE.

Indeed, it was…assuming you competed the requirements of a beliver by having your sins washed away in baptism. What you did later, however, determines whether you maintained the gift or threw it away.

I have been redeem from ALL my sins: past, present and future. Christ bore them ALL on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24).

Ah…well, go and enjoy your sins to the fullest. You’re already covered.

Weird…Catholics are HAMMERED by Protestants who laugh because they claim Catholics can sin as much as they want on Friday night and confess on Saturday in time for Mass on Sunday.

What hypocrisy then to say that your own future sins are already covered, so you don’t have to worry about your salvation which is already assured. Why is your position in less hypocritical than that of the hypothetical Catholic just described?

Hence, there is no room for “temporal punishment” or a place called “Purgatory.” That’s why neither of them are found in Scripture. No Apostle taught on them. Those doctrines were ADDED later by men in unbelief.I don’t “have” them. Go back and read my posts.Ever so correct. Can Jesus go back to the grave?

I could re-present the scriptures which support the doctrine of purgatory, but that would be redundant and a waste of time. Instead, let me pose a question:

David’s sin with Bathsheba was forgiven. So, why did the child die even though David prayed and fasted that the child might live?