purgatory

[JustaServant]

how do we know that this is true? how do we know that we released 1000 souls from purgatory? I recieved this as an answer to a earlier thread I posted about purgatory

St. Gertrude prayer for the souls in Purgatory - Eternal Father, I offer you the most precious blood of your Divine Son Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the day, for all the holy souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, in my own home and in my family.

Each time you say this prayer, 1000 souls are released from Purgatory.

I have a copy of this prayer and recite it once a day. It is a beautiful prayer. How do we know it is true? The same way we know any prayer we pray is answered.

 

[Des]

Your questioning is based on the false notion that men are saved by not sinning. But according to God’s Word all men are saved “by grace through faith.” Not by not sinning.

My question is served from the notion that all sinners who believe in Christ are saved.

I would certainly doubt the salvation of a “rapist” (actively involved). I would doubt the salvation of a habitual liar, as well. But God saves even the most vile of sinners when he or she, convicted of their sins (a work of the Holy Spirit) turns from unbelief to belief in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ on their behalf.

I’ll repeat what I was getting at. If ALL sins are equal in God’s eyes then a little white lie according to you is equal to rape and likewise, just like the white lie does not need repentance.

And in both examples, the two sinners were once men of God.

 

[moondweller]

VociMike:

So you will sin up to the moment of death, and after that you will never ever sin, nor desire to sin, and yet nothing about you will have changed? That’s absurd.

Oh, something very substantial about me will have changed. At the time of death I will shed this yet unredeemed body and instantly be at Home with my Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-9). But death is not my “blessed hope.” My daily hope is to be translated from life to LIFE at the coming of Jesus for His church; when the dead in Christ will rise first (physical resurrection) and then we (true believers) who are alive and remain (still on this earth at that time) will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet Him in the air, and so we shall always be with Him (see 1 Thess. 4:13-18).

Sorry to disappoint you but no true believer will ever see or experience the supposed terrible suffering of Catholic Purgatory.

If nothing will change when you don’t sin in heaven, then why in the world don’t you stop sinning now? Why don’t you live the rest of your life without any sin or desire to sin? Well, why not? Is it that you can stop sinning but refuse to stop? Or is it that you can’t stop sinning?

Salvation doesn’t occur when one stops sinning. Salvation is about believing!! One must turn from his unbelief and turn to Christ by faith alone.

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

Where is it said that foregiveness of future sins occurs at the point of belief?

Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 "…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'The true believer is not only forgiven of all sins upon faith in Christ, but he is also “sanctified” by faith in Him.

Christ, the unblemished Lamb of God, took upon Himself the sin of the world (1 Jn. 1:29). He bore them ALL (1 Pet. 2:24). “The sin of the world” means ALL sins, past present and future; all those prior to His sacrificial death and after. Your problem isn’t lack of revelation on this, it’s unbelief in what has been revealed.

 

[paul_c]

Oh, something very substantial about me will have changed. At the time of death I will shed this yet unredeemed body and instantly be at Home with my Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-9). But death is not my “blessed hope.” My daily hope is to be translated from life to LIFE at the coming of Jesus for His church; when the dead in Christ will rise first (physical resurrection) and then we (true believers) who are alive and remain (still on this earth at that time) will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet Him in the air, and so we shall always be with Him (see 1 Thess. 4:13-18).

Sorry to disappoint you but no true believer will ever see or experience the supposed terrible suffering of Catholic Purgatory.Salvation doesn’t occur when one stops sinning. Salvation is about believing!! One must turn from his unbelief and turn to Christ by faith alone.

Just because you say this loudly and often, doesn’t make it true. In fact, your theology makes a mockery of all moral teaching because it makes it completely unimportant. How can you possibly believe that all you need to do is believe without ever having to do the works that demonstrate that your belief is real? When Jesus was asked what was required for eternal life, he never said, Just believe in me, did he? What he said was" follow the commandments. And he summarized those commandments with Love God and Love your Neighbor. You see, Christianity is more about Love than it is about Faith. Have you never read 1Corinthians 13?

 

[moondweller]

ncgolf:

The innermost change occurs at Baptism … not at the time of “personal” belief.

You can water baptize someone all day long and no change will occur. If you’ll take an honest look at the Scriptural accounts only those who first believed were subsequently water baptized: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

 

[moondweller]

Odell:

So, what does God discipline his sons for there obedience? Or for there trespasses that you admittedly say he can see?

The discipline of the Lord toward His sons is not about so-called “venial” sins and “temporal punishment.”

Godly discipline is not about sins at all but leading one in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. For instance, the discipline of a coach toward his team members isn’t to punish them, but to improve their performance. The discipline of the Lord is toward the living not the dead. It has absolutely nothing to do with Catholic Purgatory. In fact, according to His Word, He knows nothing of such a place. But rather, for the true believer to be absent from the body is to be Home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8).

 

[rinnie]

First of all Peter begins by saying that Jesus died for our sins, ONCE FOR ALL, the Just FOR the unjust, for the specific reason that He might bring us (believers) TO GOD - not to some place called “Purgatory.” The Scriptures speak of no such place, since the notion of such a place would deny the sufficiency of the cross of Christ where Peter first states that Jesus died for our sins ONE FOR ALL for the purpose of bringing us (true believers) to God.

The second part of that passage is quite obscure, and because it says He made proclamation (not “preached”) to “spirits now in prison,” it can’t be referring to saved “souls” which, prior to the cross of Christ, resided not in “prison” but were comforted in a place called the bosom of Abraham (read Lk. 16:20-31). God did not, nor does not, send His children to “prison.”

The doctrine of Purgatory is uniquely Catholic. [SIGN]It’s not at all Biblical[/SIGN]. Catholicism claims that “Purgatory” is a place where Catholics go to be purged of all venial sins (in which they died) through personal suffering. But such a doctrine militates against the cross of Christ where Scripture tells us Jesus Himself “made purification of sins” and subsequently sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Heb. 1:3).

Since the cross of Christ, and His subsequent ascension into Heaven, there are no longer any “souls” (men are not referred to as “spirits”) residing in "the bosom of Abraham:"Eph. 4:8 "When He ascended on High, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men."And the Apostle Paul taught that for saved believers to be absent from the body is to be “home with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:6-9). He taught nothing concerning Catholic “Purgatory.”

Okay since you seem to know more about our faith then we do. Lets have you explain this scripture for me.

Zech. God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put in the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven so where are those souls being refined in?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

The discipline of the Lord toward His sons is not about so-called “venial” sins and “temporal punishment.”

[SIGN]Godly discipline is not about sins at all but [/SIGN]leading one in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. For instance, the discipline of a coach toward his team members isn’t to punish them, but to improve their performance. The discipline of the Lord is toward the living not the dead. It has absolutely nothing to do with Catholic Purgatory. In fact, according to His Word, He knows nothing of such a place. But rather, for the true believer to be absent from the body is to be Home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8).

Oh! How about 1 cor. 3:17 This verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is destroying Gods temple is a bad work which is a mrotal sin which leads to death. 1 cor 3:14 15,17 purgatory which reveals the state of righteousness (114) show venial sin, v 15 shows mortal sin, v17 show all are judged after death.

How do you explain that one?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][SIGN][/SIGN][/SIGN]

You can water baptize someone all day long and no change will occur. If you’ll take an honest look at the Scriptural accounts only those who first believed were subsequently water baptized: “[SIGN]For by grace you have been saved [/SIGN]through faith…”

Now whats it gonna be faith or grace. You just stated by grace you can be saved. How can you have faith and be saved without grace. Little contradiction going on here now isn’t there?

 

[moondweller]

bookgirl32:

Okay, so you are perfect, now, not once you get to Heaven.

I’ve been made righteous in Christ. I don’t have a righteousness of my own, “but that which is through FAITH in Christ, the righteousness which come from God on the basis of faith.” I am justified (declared righteous) as A GIFT of God through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). Hence, no need to pass through an imaginary place called “Purgatory.”

Okay, well that contradicts what you just said above. This verse reveals that these words are so we may not sin (meaning we still can), and that we have an Advocate when we do sin. Why do we any longer need an advocate if we are no longer “sinners”? This passage is speaking to the people in present tense: “we have an advocate”, not we “had” an advocate. So why do we still need an advocate if all the work is done?

I pointed to that verse to show you that the redeemed, while still in these yet unredeemed (unglorified) bodies, still do sin. Christ’s work of redemption on the believer’s behalf was FINISHED on the cross and applied to believers, in full, at the time of personal belief in Him. But the physical bodies in which the redeemed still function on this earth are not yet redeemed (i.e., glorified). And in this body believer’s can still sin (and do still sin). But Christ paid for those sins as well.

For now we (true believers) walk by faith in these yet unredeemed (unglorified), physical bodies. But the day is coming when the Lord Himself “will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself” (Phil. 3:20-21) This is all in accordance with the believer’s *gift *of salvation at the time of belief in Christ. As the Apostle John states:1 John 3:2-3 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."When the believer sins in this yet unglorified (unredeemed) body, his High Priest in heaven (the risen Christ) acts as His advocate before the Father testifying that he belongs to Him, purchased (redeemed) by His blood shed on the cross. He testifies that his sins have been forgiven. Christ’s heavenly, High Priestly work is part of the true believer’s salvation.

In such a glorious salvation there’s no room for a place like Catholic “Purgatory.” It just doesn’t fit. For such a place denies the cleansing power of the blood of Christ to purify the believer of his sins (Heb. 1:3), putting them away, forever, by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 9:26), and Christ’s present, High Priestly work in heaven on behalf of all who are His through faith in Him alone. Purgatory is the square plug Catholic theology tries to fit into the round hole of Divine salvation. It simply won’t fit. It was never designed for it.

 

[moondweller]

[SIGN][SIGN][/SIGN][/SIGN]

Now whats it gonna be faith or grace. You just stated by grace you can be saved. How can you have faith and be saved without grace. Little contradiction going on here now isn’t there?

“For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (Eph. 2:8). IOW, God Himself saves by His grace through the sinner’s faith. No contradiction there. Nope, none at all. :tiphat:

 

[moondweller]

AmbroseSJ:

Is this your justification for your man made doctrines of “personal belief?”

Don’t you take note of the fact that Paul (and Silas) say “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” He doesn’t say “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you are saved.”

He told him to believe and he will be saved. Just as if I were tell a starving man, “Eat this bread and you will no longer be hungry.” In the same way, the jailer believed and he was SAVED. You too, if you will believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you also will be saved at the time of belief in Him. It’s a divine promise to all men, not just the Philippian jailer.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

H[SIGN]e told him to believe and he will be saved. [/SIGN] Just as if I were tell a starving man, “Eat this bread and you will no longer be hungry.” In the same way, the jailer believed and he was SAVED. You too, if you will believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you also will be saved at the time of belief in Him. It’s a divine promise to all men, not just the Philippian jailer.

So what Peter was just talking out of school when he said confess and repent!

 

[moondweller]

Randy Carson:

I am not suggesting that forgiveness OCCURS at that moment, but that you are either FORGIVEN or NOT FORGIVEN of the sins that you have already committed when you die…I’m not referring to a process but to a state.

Yes. A true believer, at the time of personal belief in Christ, in respect to sins, enters into a state of forgiveness:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Col 1:13-14 "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."Such is the eternal status of every true believer now no longer in Adam but “in Christ.”

This is incorrect. One may have believed 25 years ago but committed mortal sins which have not been forgiven in the intervening years. Consequently, at the moment of death one is either in a state of grace or one is not.

According to the Scriptures there is no such thing as “a state of grace.” This term is related only to the Catholic doctrine of “infused righteousness” associated with water baptism. According to the Scriptures, however, one is either “saved by grace through faith” in Christ, or one is not at all.

ALL sin is "mortal: “For the wages of sin is death…” (Rom. 6:23a). But salvation has to do with believing and the glorious message: “…but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 6:23b).Rom 5:14-17 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come (Christ). But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned (Adam); for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation (to all men), but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one (Adam), much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."There’s no room for a place like “Purgatory” with such a glorious gift through such a glorious Savior.

Ah…well, go and enjoy your sins to the fullest. You’re already covered.

I’ve also been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Sin is not joyful to me. To you, maybe. You may feel like you’re being deprived, but not me. I enjoy walking with My Lord.

David’s sin with Bathsheba was forgiven. So, why did the child die even though David prayed and fasted that the child might live?

How does this have anything to do with “Purgatory?” How does the death of his child prove the existence of such a place and all the suffering that’s suppose to be presently going on there?

 

[moondweller]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

So what Peter was just talking out of school when he said confess and repent!

It’s all part of believing, my friend. You’ll notice that those Jews Peter was preaching Christ to were “pierced to the heart” (Acts 2:37). IOW, convicted of their sin. And the account goes on to say that those who received (i.e., believed) his word were subsequently baptized (2:41). They believed Peter’s word concerning the bodily resurrection of Jesus their Messiah whom they knew was crucified, and God saved them by GRACE through FAITH.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Unbelief?

 

[moondweller]

My question is served from the notion that all sinners who believe in Christ are saved.

Define “saved.”

I’ll repeat what I was getting at. If ALL sins are equal in God’s eyes then a little white lie according to you is equal to rape and likewise, just like the white lie does not need repentance.

And in both examples, the two sinners were once men of God.

You continue to address your own question but completely avoid the content of my answer.

 

[VociMike]

Oh, something very substantial about me will have changed. At the time of death I will shed this yet unredeemed body and instantly be at Home with my Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-9).

Let me see if I understand. You are redeemed, but your body is not redeemed? So you are a separate entity from your body?

And how is it that many of the angels, who have no bodies, still sinned?

Sorry to disappoint you but no true believer will ever see or experience the supposed terrible suffering of Catholic Purgatory.Salvation doesn’t occur when one stops sinning. Salvation is about believing!! One must turn from his unbelief and turn to Christ by faith alone.

I didn’t ask you about salvation, I asked why you don’t stop sinning now, today, this very minute. And you didn’t answer that question, so I’ll ask again. Why do you not cease sinning now? Is it because you can but choose not to, or is it because you cannot?

 

[rinnie]

It’s all part of believing, my friend. You’ll notice that those Jews Peter was preaching Christ to were “pierced to the heart” (Acts 2:37). IOW, convicted of their sin. And the account goes on to say that those who received (i.e., believed) his word were subsequently baptized (2:41). They believed Peter’s word concerning the bodily resurrection of Jesus their Messiah whom they knew was crucified, and God saved them by GRACE through FAITH.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Unbelief?

No what is hard for me to believe is that you can be saved by your comment of just believing and not repenting.

 

[crazzeto]

[SIGN][SIGN][/SIGN][/SIGN]

Now whats it gonna be faith or grace. You just stated by grace you can be saved. How can you have faith and be saved without grace. Little contradiction going on here now isn’t there?

I would suggest that there are many people who mix up the terms “faith” and “grace”.

Grace is Gods free gift to us, which we did nothing to deserve. Our response to Gods grace, or if you will the sign that we do want to accept that gift if you will is our response of faith completed by works (faith and works).

To argue this you put your self in the awkward situation of having to try and explain away the only legitimate bible passage in which the words “faith” and “alone” appear together:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P11W.HTM

22

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23

Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”

24

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.