purgatory

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Nice argument, that was impressive.
Thank you.

I was just thinking. Since “Purgatory” is an asserted doctrine and not provable by Scripture, one could just as easily say that rather than by suffering God cleanses those in “Purgatory” by tickling them. Why not make it enjoyable? Why do men always want to, theologically, self-inflict pain? Answer: Pain seems more meritorious. It all goes back to salvation by works and self-righteousness. Pure, unadulterated GRACE is repugnant to the natural mind.
 
one could just as easily say that rather than by suffering God cleanses those in “Purgatory” by tickling them. .
Well, I’m glad you’re at least acknowledging that it’s God doing it here, even though you are saying that God is causing the suffering.
 
Well, I’m glad you’re at least acknowledging that it’s God doing it here, even though you are saying that God is causing the suffering.
But keep in mind, BG32, I don’t even believe there is a Catholic Purgatory, so what does it matter what I acknowledge. I just made the statement according to your own personal belief.
 
That would imply that God originally created us with a mind that is repugnant to His grace, do you really believe that?
God didn’t create the “natural” mind. The “natural” mind is fallen. It’s the mind of the “psuchikos,” the natural man who does not accept the things of the Spirit of God: they’re foolishness to him; he cannot understand them because they’re spiritually appraised. GRACE is understood only by the “pneumatikos,” the spiritual man. One born again by the Spirit through faith in Christ alone. Read 1 Cor. 2:12-16.
 
But keep in mind, BG32, I don’t even believe there is a Catholic Purgatory, so what does it matter what I acknowledge. I just made the statement according to your own personal belief.
We may have just come to a crossroad in this thread. You don’t in anyway agree with the doctrine of Purgatory, I understand that and I’m not asking you to. But you do acknowledge that within our doctrine of Purgatory (again, with the understanding that you do not agree with it or believe it) it is God performing the action, it is God who is the cause. That this is Purgatory as we describe it?
 
God didn’t create the “natural” mind. The “natural” mind is fallen. It’s the mind of the “psuchikos,” the natural man who does not accept the things of the Spirit of God: they’re foolishness to him; he cannot understand them because they’re spiritually appraised. GRACE is understood only by the “pneumatikos,” the spiritual man. One born again by the Spirit through faith in Christ alone. Read 1 Cor. 2:12-16.
So we’re speaking of a human mind though, correct? A human mind that is either psuchikos or pneumatikos here on Earth?
 
Thank you.

I was just thinking. Since “Purgatory” is an asserted doctrine and not provable by Scripture, one could just as easily say that rather than by suffering God cleanses those in “Purgatory” by tickling them. Why not make it enjoyable? Why do men always want to, theologically, self-inflict pain?
I realize that your comment is just snark, not a serious attempt at conversation, but I will converse anyway. The reason is probably for the same reason Our Savior had to suffer and die for our salvation, rather than be tickled for it. This should be a clue to you that there is something about suffering that is different in God’s eyes than tickling.

Also, do you notice that giving up bad things in this life (too much food, smoking, drinking, drugs, gossip, pornography, etc) is hard? That we suffer when we move from a more damaged or sinful state to a less damaged or sinful state? Do you think this might be another clue regarding the place of suffering in our perfection?

Or will you just respond with another wisecrack? The choice is yours.
 
No, Randy, what I said in my post was not hypothetical. But yours is clearly is.

Hypothetically they could have said, “Well, then, come back in a couple of days when your hair is dirty and we’ll baptize you then” (baptism saves no one).

Hypotheticals can get really absurd, cant’ they? If not down right silly. 🎉
Just to be clear, I did not mean that YOUR post was hypothetical. What I meant was that “What I am about to say is hypothetical…”
 
Nope, no change at all. You’re confused with the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:4-6). All who personally believe in Christ are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, sealed by Him to the day of redemption, and regenerated. Water has no power to do any of this.
Obviously, it’s not the power of the water, but the power of God who has chosen to do this using water baptism.

Okay, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ. The Holy Spirit is the one acting upon us.

What is the means by which He does this?

Water baptism.

Water, Water Everywhere
Taken from: blog.catholic-convert.com/?p=238
  1. Code:
      The first creation came from the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters and from the water emerged land and man and God's first creation (Gen 1:1-2).
  2. Code:
      A new humanity was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Peter said this represents baptism which "now saves us" (1 Peter 3:18-21).
  3. Code:
      The nation of Israel was created through the WATER of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead — my, oh my, again we have water and Spirit (Ex 14).
  4. Code:
      Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ez 36:25). Born again, I suspect.
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      Then Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit (Mt 3:16; Jn 1:29).
  6. Code:
      Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again, or from above which is accomplished through “WATER and the SPIRIT.“
  7. Code:
      When Jesus finished these words what was the first thing he did? He went down and baptized people in the Jordan with his disciples (Jn 4:1-2).
  8. Code:
      At the first Holy Ghost Gospel Revival meeting Peter stood up at Pentecost and said, “Repent, and be baptized (WATER) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SPIRIT“ (Acts 2:38).
  9. Code:
      Peter also says “Baptism now saves you“ (1 Pet 3:18), and Paul is told “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16), and Paul writes that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration (WATER) and renewal in the Holy SPIRIT“ (Titus 3:5).
Water baptism was prefigured in the OT and brings about the forgiveness of sins and regeneration of the soul.

1 Corintians 10:1-4
“I WANT you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”

This is an abundantly clear OT prefiguring of baptism and being saved by baptism. The Israelites were baptized into Moses by passing through the water of the Red Sea; we are baptized into Christ by passing through the water of the baptismal font. Additionally, the Israelites that left Egypt are described as follows:

Exodus 12:37-38
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very many cattle, both flocks and herds.

From this, it is obvious that the sacrament of baptism is for men, women, and children.
 
God didn’t create the “natural” mind. The “natural” mind is fallen. It’s the mind of the “psuchikos,” the natural man who does not accept the things of the Spirit of God: they’re foolishness to him; he cannot understand them because they’re spiritually appraised. GRACE is understood only by the “pneumatikos,” the spiritual man. One born again by the Spirit through faith in Christ alone. Read 1 Cor. 2:12-16.
Bookgirl did not reference the “natural mind”…you added that in order to counter her post.

God gave us intellect, emotions and will - the things that constitute our mind. Paul wrote:

[1 Thessalonians 5:23](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians+5:23&version=NIV)
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the soul or mind where the battle takes place. Paul also says:

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

You raise a good point however, and it is illustrated from Jesus’ own words when He said, “The flesh (man’s “natural” mind) counts for nothing.”

The context?

John 6 when the Jews could not accept that Jesus was referring to eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

What does your “natural” mind tell you about the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, Moondweller?
 
So you’re asserting that Heb. 12:6 is referring to Purgatory? Can you show me in the CCC where Heb. 12:6 is defined as Purgatory?
Never said it is referring to purgatory moon. you where the one to bring up suffering. So I show you from scripture exactly what suffering entails. You yourself admit that it brings about some sort of a righteous walk here
Don’t mix contexts. There’s a “righteous” walk before God while on this earth. And this is addressed to the "saved by grace through faith
It leads His children (adopted through faith in Christ) to a godly walk before Him. A godly walk is a disciplined walk (see for example Rom. 12:1-2ff; Eph. 4:1ff). But none of this has anything to do with Purgatory.The righteousness that comes with salvation is not one’s own but that “which is through faith in Christ,* the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith***”
And you have been told time and time again purgation is nothing that we do own our own.

This last part that i bolded I would really like a response to. Where does this righteous walk that you talk about while here on earth come from? Is it of your own?
I walk by faith, just as my father Abraham did.
Again moon how do you walk by faith?
Does that mean he never sinned? No. But I, like Abraham, have been reckoned righteousness based on faith alone (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:4-5).To walk by faith is to walk by the Spirit; and when a true believer walks by the Spirit he won’t carry out the desire of the flesh (Gal. 5:16).
Great so how is the true believer able walk by the spirit and avoid such a desire of the flesh like murder? Does he do it on his own?
I don’t think you’re at all familiar with spiritual regeneration which occurs at the time of personal belief in Christ.This has to do with God’s dealings with believers here on earth, in this life. It has nothing to do with Purgatory. Can you show me in the CCC where it references Heb. 5:11 to its teaching on Purgatory?
Heb 5 11 is not purgatory but you admit great joy can come from suffering. You have to because if you dont you go directly against scripture.

So now that we got that covered how about no more snide remarks regarding the awful suffering of purgatory 👍

Moon still has a big problem :juggle:
he has a problem

He would then claim that you would not commit such a sin as rape if you are truly saved. That translates into Gods grace if you are open to it would keep you away from such a sin as rape but his grace is not good enough to keep you from stealing that candy bar! So he would cover you instead. Got that 👍
And im not going to let him get off that easy I know he read my post 😃

Did moon not say
and when a true believer walks by the Spirit he won’t carry out the desire of the flesh (Gal. 5:16)
So a false believer is one who commits murder. Is a false believers sins covered? Is a false believer reckoned Christ righteousness?

I wouldn’t think so. If moon acknowledges Gods grace keeps a true believer from not committing sin such as murder and certainly its not the persons own doing that keeps him from murdering.“we will see how he answers” then why couldn’t Gods grace help us when we lie? Is Gods grace not good enough, strong enough to keep us from such sins?

SO DOES THE CROSS GIVE YOU STRENGTH TO MAKE A TRUE INNER CHANGE OR IS IT JUST A COVER UP?

to me the latter lacks the true power of the cross!

Luke 11: 39-40 The Lord said to him, "Oh you Pharisees! Although you cleanse the outside of the cup and the dish, inside you are filled with plunder and evil.You fools! Did not the maker of the outside also make the inside?
 
you where the one to bring up suffering.
Purgatory’s ALL about suffering, Odell. I wasn’t the one who “brought up suffering.” It’s what your doctrine of Purgatory is all about.

Here’s the way I see it:

When it comes to the discussion of Purgatory you Catholics jump through all sorts of hoops trying to prove a doctrine that simply has no Divine revelation for support. As I’ve said before, what completely separates true Christianity from all the man-made religions on earth, now and in the past, is that true Christianity is based entirely on Divine revelation. The true Christian walks by faith in what God Himself has revealed. Like Abraham in Gen. 15:6, it’s believing what God Himself has said, not what men assert.

The theopneustos Scriptures reveal that God dealt with sins, once for all, not with “fire,” but with blood, the blood of Jesus Christ. And the message that the risen Christ sent out to the world to believe through His Apostles is this:**Acts 10:43 **"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."But Catholicism, contrary to what God has revealed concerning the, once for all, sacrifice of His beloved Son, in unbelief, still insists that there is reserved in the afterlife a “temporal punishment” yet to be experienced by those whose sin, Scripture reveals, have already been Divinely forgiven through faith in Jesus Christ: III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030
"All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."The notion that one who has Divinely received forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ must yet himself undergo further “purification” in the afterlife is a direct attack on the sacrificial work of God’s Sin-bearer, and utter unbelief in what the Word of God has expressly stated concerning Jesus Christ and the sins of mankind: that He “had made purification of sins” by the sacrifice of Himself and through the shedding of His blood (Heb. 1:3b).

Nowhere is the Catholic doctrine of “temporal punishment,” reserved for the forgiven “elect” for the sake of future cleansing, revealed prophetically or taught doctrinally by the Apostles or Christ in Scripture. It’s an added doctrine by men, and I must say, thoroughly rooted in unbelief in what God has revealed concerning Christ and sin. According to the Scriptures all sins were Divinely dealt with, once for all, through God’s Suffering Servant, never the sinner.

It’s the RCC, not Scripture, that gives this place of suffering its name:"1031 "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604"And she admits that the doctrine was “formulated” (not Divinely revealed) at the Councils of Florence and Trent. Hence, not Biblically based but a “tradition” of the RCC which, it asserts, is based on certain texts of Scripture which it interprets as a future, cleansing fire for sins:"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605"Those Scriptures referenced in the CCC are 1 Cor. 3:15 and 1 Pet 1:7. But in both those passages the fire is figurative and neither refer to the purifying of sins in the afterlife as its Divine purpose. The former is revelatory and discloses the value of the Christian worker’s WORKS for the result of receiving REWARDS (or not); the latter reveals the believer’s faith during this life."As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire."The Roman Catholic is told he “must believe” in “temporal judgments” and a future “purifying fire” based on the word of their leaders alone."He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606"But the fires of Catholic Purgatory aren’t about “forgiving” sins (which would be blatantly contrary to Scripture), but about “purifying” the Catholic through personal suffering; which in itself denies the purifying power of the blood of Christ, as revealed in the Scriptures (Heb. 1:3b).

Catholic “Purgatory” is a truly baffling doctrine because it’s so disproportionate. Rome teaches its people that while here on earth they can have sins very easily and painlessly absolved and purified sacramentally through a Priest, attached with a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers. However, any sins left over (venial) he/she must suffer great personal pain for an undisclosed amount of time in Purgatorial fires. Totally nonsensical - no wonder it’s not found in the God-breathed (theopneustos) Scriptures. Such inconsistency could have never originated with God.

Bottom line is God has revealed to us how He Himself dealt with our sins, once for all, through the sacrificial death of His beloved Son (Col. 2:13-14). What is now required of man is to BELIEVE it. But Rome’s doctrine of Purgatory denies it.
 
But the fires of Catholic Purgatory aren’t about “forgiving” sins (which would be blatantly contrary to Scripture), but about “purifying” the Catholic through personal suffering; which in itself denies the purifying power of the blood of Christ, as revealed in the Scriptures (Heb. 1:3b).
You are setting up a false dichotomy, MD. There is nothing in the doctrine of Purgatory that “denies the purifying power of the blood of Christ.” It is, in fact, this Blood of Christ which does the purifying in Purgatory.
Catholic “Purgatory” is a truly baffling doctrine because it’s so disproportionate. Rome teaches its people that while here on earth they can have sins very easily and painlessly absolved and purified sacramentally through a Priest, attached with a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers. However, any sins left over (venial) he/she must suffer great personal pain for an undisclosed amount of time in Purgatorial fires. Totally nonsensical - no wonder it’s not found in the God-breathed (theopneustos) Scriptures. Such inconsistency could have never originated with God.
Does the CC teach that our venial sins are forgiven in Purgatory?
 
moondweller, you seem to ignore my question, or missed it so I will repeat it again,

What do you do with the scripture about the final purification. Do you ignore it? How do you explain it, you seem to be so sure the CC teaches it wrong. Where does this final purification take place then? When? Where? What is it then according to you?

And where do you get your teaching, and what makes you think think that you are right, and the CC who God gave authority to teach is wrong?
 
And how in the world could the final purification of purgatory deny the blood of Christ. IF it wasn’t for the blood of CHrist there would be no purgatory at all. And heaven would also be impossible. It was the blood of Christ that opened the heavens for goodness sakes and freed us from sin.
 
moondweller,

The concept being discussed here is that to enter Heaven, a person must be truly holy not just called holy. This cleansing may involve suffering or it may not. Have you read the Mitch Absolm’s book (or seen the movie) The Five People we meet in Heaven? In that book, he suggests that after you die, you will meet 5 people in heaven that will explain your life to you and essentially heal your spiritual wounds. This may not far off of what Purgatory may be like for some. We don’t know how we will be made pure, but we know it must happen because as it says in Revelations, “Nothing unclean will enter Heaven”.

W also know that there is utility in praying for the Dead. This is a strong tradition that was shown scripturally in 2maccabees and in 1Corinthians 15:29, St Paul highlights that people went beyond just praying and actually had themselves baptized for the dead: Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them? :

This would not be necessary if there wasn’t a play for purifying the dead. Afterall, those in Heaven need no purification and those in Hell are beyond the help of prayer.
 
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moondweller:
Catholic “Purgatory” is a truly baffling doctrine because it’s so disproportionate. Rome teaches its people that while here on earth they can have sins very easily and painlessly absolved and purified sacramentally through a Priest, attached with a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers. However, any sins left over (venial) he/she must suffer great personal pain for an undisclosed amount of time in Purgatorial fires. Totally nonsensical - no wonder it’s not found in the God-breathed (theopneustos) Scriptures. Such inconsistency could have never originated with God.
You’re right, it didn’t originate with God, or with Scripture, but just with your own twisted understanding. You have still not grasped the Catholic doctrine of forgiveness of sins. I won’t repeat it yet again for you, as there are numerous posts already in this thread explaining it in detail. You would rather twist and pervert the Catholic doctrine than understand it. 🤷
 
You are setting up a false dichotomy, MD. There is nothing in the doctrine of Purgatory that “denies the purifying power of the blood of Christ.”
The existence of Catholic Purgatory itself denies it’s power. In your Purgatory fire is the supposed purifying agent.
It is, in fact, this Blood of Christ which does the purifying in Purgatory.
If this were at all true then there’d be no need for suffering on the sinner’s part. But your catechism explicitly states “a purifying fire” without any mention of Christ’s blood involved:“As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire.”
Does the CC teach that our venial sins are forgiven in Purgatory?
In fact it does:"He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."Your leaders interpret “the age to come” as Purgatory. Their interpretation makes no sense, but that’s what it states.
 
moondweller, you seem to ignore my question, or missed it so I will repeat it again,

What do you do with the scripture about the final purification.
There is no Scripture on “final purification.” Scripture reveals that Christ Himself made purification of sins through His sacrificial death (Heb. 1:3b).
 
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