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moondweller
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I contend that because of the blood of Christ there is no Purgatory at all. That’s why it’s not found in Scripture.
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rinnie
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Yes I know you keep saying that, but how do you account for 2 Macc. 12:44-45 Therefore he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin?
Or Matt. 5:25 I say to you,you will never get OUT until every penny is apid. Out from where then? It can’t be Heaven, and it can’t be hell? Where is is? You never answer these questions.
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moondweller
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I’ll say it again. What makes true Christianity different from ALL the man-made religions and cults on this earth is that true Christianity is based entirely on Divine Revelation. IOW, the faith of true Christianity is in God’s revealed Word, not the imaginations or suggestions of mere men, which you present here.
It’s interesting to see how even some Catholics desperately try to escape Purgatorial fires.
Your church has told you how Catholics will be made pure: “purifying fires.” It has said nothing about you meeting 5 people in heaven. Mitch Absolom’s suggestion is no different than my suggestion that the Catholic’s “final purification” be done by God tickling them in Purgatory. We could modify that and suggest that those 5 people are assigned by God to do the tickling.
How many on this thread believe they’ll see 5 people in heaven to explain their lives which will essentially “heal their spiritual wounds?”
Does your Magisterium actually have it wrong about its teachings on the future “purifying fires” of “Purgatory” after all, as “paul c” and Mitch Absolom suggest?
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moondweller
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Which states NOTHING about Catholic Purgatory.
However, there is no offering in the Law of Moses for the dead. So, in light of Lev. 4:1-6; 7 it’s more likely that Judas Maccabaeus sent money to Jerusalem to provide for a sin or trespass offering. His purpose, according to the Law, would have been to atone for the defilement that the sin of the idolaters (their sin was idolatry) had brought upon the camp. IOW, the offering he sent was for the LIVING, not the dead.
So based on this verse you’re suggesting that Purgatory is a “prison” and your suffering there is “paying” for your sins?
I don’t think what Jesus says in Matt. 5:25 is about Catholic Purgatory at all. You’re reading your doctrine of Purgatory into that text.
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rinnie
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[SIGN][/SIGN]
It says for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again,it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. Again where is idolatry stated?
Then why are you adding words to scripture. Where does it say sin of idolaters?
It says for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again,it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. Again where is idolatry stated?
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rinnie
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[SIGN][/SIGN]
Why would Jesus do all of that then?
I know you don’t. But what makes what you think that you can define scripture? Who does the bible say we should listen to ourself or the Apostles who were give authority? Why did Jesus ask Peter to feed his sheep? Why did Jesus tell Peter that he prayed for him that his faith may not fail and when he turned again he would strenthen his brethren.
Why would Jesus do all of that then?
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rinnie
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and why did Tim say follow the pattern of the sound words which you have HEARD from me in the fiath and love which are in Christ Jesus. Gurad the truth that has veen entrusted to you by the HS that dwells inside us.
That patter of sound words which have been heard are Tradtition and are not written in the bible. How can you have the fullness of the truth without maintaining the Traditions as said in 1 Cor 11:2?
That patter of sound words which have been heard are Tradtition and are not written in the bible. How can you have the fullness of the truth without maintaining the Traditions as said in 1 Cor 11:2?
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ncgolf
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Christianity is based on a person revealed through Dvine Revelation. Where is stated in the Divine Scriptures that only the written word is the total of all revelation.
This is an assumption that is not true.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Statements like that indicate how little you understand other religions as well as your own. Most religions do assert divine revelations, even if from a mere mortal; viz: Islam and Muhammad. Others from other religions would regard Jesus as just another man (including the Jews.) So you should first realize (if that is possible) that divine revelations coming from any religion necessarily come from men. Even in Christianity, all of our Divine revelations come to us from men; viz. the Evangelists and Apostles that wrote the NT and with Catholics, the Church (which includes Scripture and Tradition.)
You arguments are unreal because they assume things that just aren’t true by any rational standard. Likewise, with purgatory, your arguments try to claim the lack of express doctrine in the Scriptures which is itself a man-made doctrine. The idea that doctrines that are not specifically defined in Scriptures are man-made is itself a man-made doctrine.
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paul_c
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Moondweller,
You ignored all the points I made in the post, other than the illustration I gave you that not all purification need be with fire and that even in pop culture, there is recognition that purification is needed. I never meant to imply that there isn’t pain in purgatory and if that is what is required for entrance into heaven, so be it. And I think you know that I wasn’t implying that Mitch Absolom had any divine inspiration that we will all really see 5 people on the way to heaven.
Let’s focus on the part of my post that you ignored, instead, shall we:
The reason you don’t recognize this is that you are under the false Protestant teaching that we have no responsibility for our own salvation. Catholics believe a few things that you don’t accept (If I’m wrong about this, set me straight):
The first of these is that we believe that God offers us salvation but that we need to accept it. This is a recognition of God’s love and respect for man, on whom God gave reason and free will to determine whether or not man would willingly do God’s will and thus join God in paradise. Most Protestant’s believe that the Gift of Grace and ultimately salvation can not be refused (because who can withstand God’s plan). But Catholics will rightfully counter that God’s plan included man’s free will and that God’s plan is sophisticated enough to account for that free will when developing his overall plan. In the Typical Protestant theology (and there are many variants), man is predetermined as damned or saved prior to his birth so nothing he does effects his salvation. This takes away all personal responsibility from man. The Catholic version of this says that God allows all men the possibility to be saved. They can all recieve sanctifying, saving grace through Baptism in the name of the trinity, because of the mercy of God and Jesus’s redemptive sacrifice. Once recieving that sacramental grace, man has the choice and responsibility not to lose it through sin. And if he does sin, God allows him to be sacramentally reconciled if man is is contrite, confesses his sin to a priest and atones for his sin as the priest requires. Thus, while man can not earn his place in heaven because he requires the free gift of God’s grace to do good works, he must actively cooperate with God’s will for him to be saved and thus man does share in the responsibility for his own salvation. And by the way, while we have responsibility, God has perfect foreknowledge of what will occur and thus his plan accounts for our actions, which are nonethe less ours to make.
The Catholic position is superior to the Protestant one in that it recognizes man’s free will and personal responsibility for doing God’s will to be saved. This makes it completely consistent both with man’s observations and with Scripture, which says in Matthew 25 and other places that we will be judged based on our actions. Matthew 25 would be incorrect if the Protestant view of complete predestination and man’s utter lack of responsibility in the economy of salvation were actually true.
The second part of the plan is that God calls for us to be actually holy. Protestants tend to believe that man can never actually be holy and fully aligned with God’s will. Instead, they believe that they will be saved only when God imputes (or declares) them holy through his mercy. many will actually say that Jesus’s sacrifice cleansed them of all sin, past present and future, which denies the fact that sin is by definition turning away from God. There is therefore no reason for Purgatory, because a Protestant isn’t expected to be actually holy, having been declared clean by Jesus’ blood on the cross.
The Catholic view is much different. Through the sacraments, we gain grace which helps makes us inclined to do God’s will and to become increasingly holy. Some people become incredibly holy in life, dedicating themselves fully to God’s will. These people will go directly to heaven. Others, while staying in the state of grace through good works and penance, do not become completely holy in life and require further purification to remove their sinful desires before attaining heaven. This is purgatory.
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moondweller
Guest
Read the text, man, what did they find the dead wearing?
Idolatry is a “mortal” sin according to Catholic theology. So what would any of this have to do with Catholic Purgatory which can purify a Catholic of only venial sins?
Nevertheless, that passage in 2 Macc. doesn’t support your doctrine of Purgatory in the least way. Like the Matthew passage you referenced, you read your fully formed doctrine into the text. Show me in Scripture where Purgatory and its “purifying fire” is actually taught. True Christianity is based on Divine revelation.
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paul_c
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Moondweller,
who made you the arbiter of True Christianity? What are your credentials for such a role?
The Fact is, and has always been, that True Christianity is that which was taught by the Apostles according to this mandate in Matthew 28:
16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
So this isnt about the written word, it is about teaching all the nations to observe what Jesus Commanded the Apostles to teach. This tradition was verbal, until the Apostles wrote it down years later. And note, Jesus says he will be with them until the end of the Age as they make disciples of all the nations. This is what the Catholic Church has been doing ever since. Do you think that God would abandon the Church he founded under St. Peter (see matthew 16)? No, he said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. This same Church teaches and has always taught about Purgatory. Why would we believe that Jesus would allow us to be decieved about this? Because you think otherwise? Please!!!
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rinnie
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Please don’t tell me what my Church teaches. And according to my faith 2 macc. Matt 5 l Cor 3
l peter 3 and Rev. 21 all refer to purgatory. That is the way my church sees it. So now you are going to teach me what my CHurch teaches?
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rinnie
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And you never told me what is the purifying fire according to your faith?
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PRmerger
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The Fire of Christ’s Love? What’s so wrong about that?
Just like blood is the atoning agent in your view. The Blood of Christ’s love.
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PRmerger
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“Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Savior. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation.** His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”**. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion.”
From Pope B16’s magnificent encyclical Spe Salvi:
Now, what Christian would ever have any objection to the above? It just exudes God’s very essence–mercy and justice! And, it’s all through Christ’s burning LOVE that this is accomplished. Not throught the Church, not through our works, not through our atonement. All God. All the time.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the New Testament verses supporting purgatory come into focus.
We also have the following:
Onesiphorus and Paul’s Prayer for the Dead
By Steve Ray
catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/Onesiphorus1.pdf
Does the Bible record St. Paul praying for a dead man? Does the New Testament relate an incident of prayer for the dead? It seems quite certain that it does.
Let’s begin with Onesiphorus—a faithful Christian who cared for St. Paul while he was in prison and who took great personal risk to serve the apostle. He was such a good man that Paul writes,
2 Tim 1:16-18
[Onesiphorus] often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains" and “he searched for me eagerly and found me” and "you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.
But from all indications—certainly from the words Paul uses—Onesiphorus has died or been killed before Paul wrote Second Timothy. Almost all commentators concede that Onesiphorus had probably died—maybe even martyred during Nero’s persecution. Paul speaks of him in the past tense and strangely asks for God’s mercy on his “household” without mentioning him, as though he was no longer here. Because Onesiphorus had served so well and was no longer alive, Paul prays for God’s blessing on his surviving family. All implications are that Onesiphorus has died.
But Paul prays for him! In 2 Timothy 1:18, while in prison awaiting his death, Paul prays for the dead man and it is recorded in the Bible. Here is what St. Paul writes, “May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.” This is not just an expression of sentimental emotion—this is a prayer for a man who has died, it is prayer for the dead.
Paul, who was earlier known as Saul the Pharisee, was well immersed in the teaching and tradition of the Pharisaical Jews. The Jews prayed for the dead and Paul would not have seen the practice as egregious or unbiblical; rather, he would have viewed prayer for the dead as a proper practice for a Jew, and also now for a Christian who believes in the afterlife.
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PRmerger
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WOW! More beautiful words from PopeB16:
The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death—this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today. Who would not feel the need to convey to their departed loved ones a sign of kindness, a gesture of gratitude or even a request for pardon? Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Savior, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other—my prayer for him—can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God’s time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain. In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too –Spe Salvi (bold mine)
The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death—this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today. Who would not feel the need to convey to their departed loved ones a sign of kindness, a gesture of gratitude or even a request for pardon? Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Savior, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other—my prayer for him—can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God’s time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain. In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too –Spe Salvi (bold mine)
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moondweller
Guest
paul c:
As I said, TRUE Christianity is based on Divine revelation, not men’s imagination or “pop culture.”
You suggested there may not be suffering by bringing up Solomon’s bizarre 5 people theory. But your problem still remains, Paul, there’s absolutely no Divine revelation to support Catholic Purgatory.
Then why bring it up? Your “infallible” Magisterium has already told you what you’re to believe about its Purgatory and its “purifying fires.”
This is not true. I believe what the Scriptures teach, that man’s responsibility in salvation is to “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.” Apart from faith in Him no man can be saved.
Scripture doesn’t say that God “offers” salvation and men need to accept it (salvation). What it does say is that God sent the Son into the world via the incarnation that the world might be saved through Him (i.e., His substitutionary, sacrificial death):John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."What men are required to do for salvation is BELIEVE the message of what God has DONE through the substitutionary sacrifice of His beloved Son. And upon personal belief God Himself, “by grace,” and grace alone, saves the believing sinner from his sins (redemption), forgives ALL his sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38), and as a gift justifies him (Rom. 3:23) and gives him eternal (everlasting)*** life*** (Jn. 3:14; 5:24; Rom. 6:23).
The will of God is that you believe in His Son.
Not all Protestants are Calvinists.
There are Augustinian Catholics.
Man has the free will to believe or to not believe in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone for salvation. To not believe and cling to works instead is as much a free will action as believing. But there’s no salvation with the free will action of clinging to works - Catholic or Protestant.
Matt 25:31ff is about separating Christ’s sheep (believers) from the goats (unbelievers) at His 2nd Advent to this earth when he sets up His Millennial, Messianic Kingdom on earth. It’s not the “Last Judgment.” It’s a separation of the living, not the dead.
ALL sins are forgiven when a man turns to God through faith in Jesus Christ who, Himself, made purification of sins, once for all, at Calvary.
The true believer is no longer in Adam but now in the resurrected Christ, the “Last Adam.” He’s been made righteous “in Him” (Rom. 5:19). Not having a righteousness of his own but “that which comes from God on the basis of FAITH” (Phil. 3:9).
No different than what I wrote here.
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moondweller
Guest
My faith is in the Word of God and in the Word of God there is no “purifying fire,” only the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.
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