purgatory

[PRmerger]

edited by PRmerger.

reason: lack of charity.

sigh

 

[SteveGC]

No you’re not. Nor should you end your sentences with a preposition. Tell me Steve, what does this verse mean?Mal 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings.”

Oh, yes…I am interested. And I’ve got no beef with Malachi 3, moon. I don’t deny that we can rob God in the sense that we withhold our treasures from His divine purposes, that we fail to cooperate with His eternal plan. Footnotes I’ve found even affirm that “rob” in this sense means to defraud, or swindle, to cheat…none of which means that anything is actually stolen from God. Regardless, we don’t rob Him of His glory.

Look, I concede that glory can mean a variety of things. It is most often used to signify God’s very nature…other times it means the praise we offer to God…still others it represents the essence of eternal life. My contention is that the only thing you can logically intend to say (by saying “you rob Him of His glory”) is that we offer praises to ourselves instead of to God by having a doctrine of purgatory. If this is what you mean by “rob”, then I’ll grant you the phraseology, although you’re still flat out wrong on the theology. But if you think that it means God is somehow made lesser a Being (or possesses less of something) as a result of “robbing” Him, then you are mistaken.

Looking forward to your reply. Until then, I will wait patiently where I’m at.

 

[brb2]

We sin because we’re still in these yet unredeemed bodies.

Md …

Are humans by ‘nature’ depraved, sinful, and wicked because of our Adamaic bodies[until redeemed in heaven, as you believe] … or were we created good, but tainted with Adam’s sinful ‘state’ … from which Christ can redeem us in this world [as the Church teaches] ?

 

[PRmerger]

No you’re not. Nor should you end your sentences with a preposition.

Moon, it’s poor form to correct another’s grammar, especially when your own posts contain grammatical (and spelling) errors.

 

[moondweller]

Oh, yes…I am interested.

No you’re not.

 

[moondweller]

Moon, it’s poor form to correct another’s grammar, especially when your own posts contain grammatical (and spelling) errors.

That’s true, but I meant it as a joke. It’s called levity. He seemed far too intense.

 

[panevino]

Originally Posted by panevino
Do u believe that the offering once for all and our declared belief in Jesus negate need for sins to be forgiven?

Certainly.Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins”.But according to your teaching purgatory isn’t about forgiveness of sins.

After belief do we still need to be reconcilled after sin?

Reconciliation to God is not forgiveness of sins. Reconciliation to God is changing one’s relationship with God; that of a once enemy to a friend.Rom 5:10-11 “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

2 Cor 5:18 “Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,”

Col 1:22 "…yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach…"Christ’s work of reconciliation on the cross is applied to the believer, in full, at the time of belief in Him, and the true believer is now perfectly and completely reconciled to God.

Is antonement an action that is needed to open door to Seperate action of having sins forgiven?

I don’t understand this question. But it is interesting that the word “atonement” is not used in the N.T. In the O.T. the Hebrew word for atonement is “kaphar,” and means “to cover.” The animal sacrifices prescribed in the Mosaic Law could only “cover” sins. But the one, final sacrifice of the incarnate Son actually took away sins, once for all (1 Jn. 1:29; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21).Heb 9:26 “Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

But your purgatory isn’t about forgiving sins. However, the above verses tell you why there’s no such thing as your purgatory found in the Scriptures.

thanks, for spending the time to respond.
how do you answer the following

1. why does Jesus ask us to pray for forgivness of trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…
2. john 20:19 - NIV On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” 24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came
3. james 5:14 NIV Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
4. 1 john 1niv 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

this one seems pretty clearly to be seperate from belief alone

1. 1 john 5 niv 16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life.

 

[moondweller]

Md …

Are humans by ‘nature’ depraved, sinful, and wicked because of our Adamaic bodies[until redeemed in heaven, as you believe]

You did not express what I believe or what is revealed in Scripture.

… or were we created good, but tainted with Adam’s sinful ‘state’ … from which Christ can redeem us in this world [as the Church teaches] ?

You weren’t “created,” you were conceived, formed in a womb and born. Born in Adam, in fact, and subject to death, fully in need of a Redeemer. God provided Him for you that through personal faith in Him you might be “born again;” only this time “created in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:10), a “new creature,” old things passed away and new things have come (2 Cor. 5:17).

No, BRB, you weren’t “created good,” you were fully born in Adam, not merely “tainted” with his sinful state. God sees you fully identified in Adam, a full fledged sinner, until the time you turn to Christ by faith alone and are born again out of Adam and into the risen Christ, a new creature now in Him, having been forgiven of all sins, redeemed by His blood, reconciled to God, justified apart from works, made righteous in Him, and sanctified forevermore. The risen Christ, the “second Man,” the “Last Adam” being your new eternal identity. This being NONE of your work, but His alone - all to the glory of God.

 

[moondweller]

thanks, for spending the time to respond.
how do you answer the following

1. why does Jesus ask us to pray for forgivness of trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…
2. john 20:19 - NIV On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” 24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came
3. james 5:14 NIV Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
4. 1 john 1niv 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

this one seems pretty clearly to be seperate from belief alone

1. 1 john 5 niv 16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life.

I see all these verses as subordinate to what I already told you, and to be interpreted in their proper context. Amazing how what I did tell you had absolutely no impact on you. Well, I guess not so amazing, really.

 

[Thing]

Were the Epistles written before Christ died?

I am not a letter writer by any standards Moondweller, but I have written several timesmore than 19 letters in the past 30 years. And I’m not even on a mission from God.
The Apostle tells his readers to hold to what he has taught whether by word or in writing. If they were the same set of things being taught he might have spared himself the ink and just said hold to what I have written only.

Moondweller:

Ah-huh. Is your purgatory a place (time?) where (when?) sins are forgiven? Check the CCC.

Where do you go if you are not forgiven, was really the question. For protestantism it is hell. If you are forgiven it is heaven for you, though.
But you have not explained to me what happens to you when it is both.

When you were born again you were forgiven every sin, but you kept sinning, and is it the Sacred Scriptures, that tell you you will not be forgiven if you do not forgive?

 

[yankee_drifter]

He gave us both. Since you accept the leadership of the Holy Spirit promised to the Church, let’s focus on what you miss: the leadership of the Apostle Peter.

In John 21:15-19, the resurrected Christ, commands Simon Peter three times to “feed my lambs” and “tend my sheep.”

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed (bosko)* my* lambs.” 16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of (poimanao) my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, "Feed (bosko)my sheep.

In this passage, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Who feeds, tends and cares for sheep? A shepherd!

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics object to the Catholic understanding that Peter was given this unique leadership position, and they cite a passage from earlier in this same Gospel wherein Jesus presents Himself as the Good Shepherd, and says there is to be but “one flock and one Shepherd.” (John 10:11-16) Therefore, the immediate question springs to mind: If Christ is the Good Shepherd, why can’t He “feed” and “tend” His own sheep?

Of course, Jesus is God, and He is clearly capable of taking care of His own flock – even after He ascends to heaven. So, why does He appoint Peter to this role? Obviously, all sheep belong to Christ, and they do not cease to belong to Jesus after the ascension. Yet, Peter is told to “feed” and “tend” them. Jesus commissions Peter to act as His “stand-in” or “vicar” after the ascension. Jesus will remain the one Shepherd, yet Peter will “feed” and “tend” the sheep, in the sense that Jesus will not be physically present to do it. Thus, Peter will be the visible, vicarious shepherd of the flock.

Because of the implications of this earthly authority and the unique Catholic claims for the papacy, non-Catholics seek alternative explanations for Jesus’ words. One attempt is to claim that Peter simply has the same authority to care for the flock of Christ that all of the other apostles had. However, this argument fails for two reasons.

First, the extent of the authority Jesus gave to Peter can be seen quite clearly in the original Greek. For example, the word which is used for “feed” in John 21 is bosko – a word which the Jewish historian Philo of Alexandria, and other 1st Century writers, use to denote “spiritual nourishment.” Similarly, the word “tend” is poimanao – the same Greek word which is translated as “rule” in passages such as Matt 2:6, Rev 2:27, Rev. 12:5, and Rev. 19:15, where it is applied to Jesus Himself. Peter, like Jesus, is to “rule” over the sheep, and to “supply them with spiritual nourishment.” Thus, Peter is established as the vicarious shepherd (i.e., “supreme pastor”) of the Church in Christ’s physical absence.

While it may be argued that any shepherd would have similar responsibilities for his sheep and that the Bible is full of passages using the relationship between sheep and shepherd as a metaphor for our relationship with God, in the context of the New Testament, only Peter received this unique appointment directly from Christ Himself. Jesus took great care to identify Peter’s new responsibility as head of the Church with His own role as Head of the Body, the Church. No other Apostle received this focus.
(cont.)

Randy, you are all over the board. This is the Purgatory thread. We cannot respond to anything on here that has nothing to do with the topic. However, you and I have gone over all of this in PM…

 

[brb2]

a new creature now in Him, having been forgiven of all sins, redeemed by His blood, reconciled to God, justified apart from works, made righteous in Him, and sanctified forevermore. The risen Christ, the “second Man,” the “Last Adam” being your new eternal identity. This being NONE of your work, but His alone - all to the glory of God.

So, how does this square with your earlier statement … “unredeemed in this world, til we get to heaven” ? Have you reconsidered, and revised your earlier belief ? :tiphat:

Nethertheless, several other troublesome aspects of your above CREDO remain at odds with apostolic scripture. We all trust in this season of Thanksgiving … you will further revise your ‘I BELIEVE’ to reflect scriptural teachings. None of us here take comfort in seeing your persistent error. It is our Apologetic DUTY, [as the Church did for Apollos & friends] to shine light on the fuller truths in :bible1: scripture.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Moondweller?

Yankee_drifter?

Thoughts?

What does any of this have to do with purgatory?

 

[Thing]

What does any of this have to do with purgatory?

Like asking what air has to do with lungs.

If St. Paul continues to sin after he has been born again he cannot enter heaven until all sin has been blotted out confession and purgatory are the means for blotting out sin after you have been born again and saved. As if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. If you are not forgiven you are not '‘saved’, I suspect.
The English military had a phrase when the odds were against them, Divide and Conquer.
But some things cannot be divided as you may wish.

 

[yankee_drifter]

1Cor3:15
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire.

All a person has to do if he has the idea of purgatory is to look for verses that has the word “fire”, “prison” or “prayer”, and voila! there’s purgatory! We must NEVER approach the Holy Scriptures this way.

The passage above is talking about loss of rewards. The useless work gets destroyed but the person is saved. Nothing about purification here.

Mt12:13:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven: but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come…

Jesus implies that some sins can be forgiven in the next world. Sin cannot be forgiven in Hell. There is no sin to be forgiven in heaven. Any remission of sin in the next world can only occur in Purgatory.

Where is Jesus implying some sins can be forgiven after death? What He said was: but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." He said these sins CANNOT be forgiven, EVER! Unless you repent while you are alive on earth, its TOO LATE! Christians however, cannot commit the unpardonable sin because only an unbeliever rejects Christ, and would dare to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan!

As for the passages in Peter which you quoted, again nothing to do with purgatory.1 Peter 4:6 isn’t talking about any preaching to dead people, giving them second chances. The spirits in prison (2 Peter 2:4) referred to in 3:19 are the same as the dead referred to in 4:6. The dead were not dead at the time the preaching took place! They were dead at the time Peter was writing and they remain dead today! Preaching to the dead while they were dead would have served absolutely no purpose (Luke 16:26-31; Heb 9:27). These passages teach that Christ in the Spirit preached through the person of Noah (2 Peter 2:5) to those that lived before the flood. The result of Christ’s preaching in the Spirit through Noah was that all the disobedient (3:20) were lost in the flood (for eternity) and that eight souls were saved by the water (3:20) which separated them from the sinful pre-flood world; a figure or example of our salvation and separation from this sinful world through the waters of baptism (3:21).

As for your quotes from Maccabees, they are apocryphal books which were never accepted by the Jews and it was to the Jewish people that the “Oracles of God” were given. God entrusted them with the OT. The apocrypha was written during the 400 year silence after Malachi when there were no new revelations and no prophets on the earth. The apocrypha is not Roman Catholic or Orthodox literature; it is Jewish literature written by Jews.

Martin Luther “removed” nothing. These apocryphal books were never in the Hebrew canon. The reformers did not treat it as canonical, but neither did they reject it or warn their followers against it. While they advised that Christians should not base doctrine on the apocrypha since it was not canonical Scripture, they argued that Christians could and even should read the books of the Apocrypha as literature that could enhance their lives before God.

In his German Bible, Luther placed the books of the apocrypha in a section between the Old and New Testaments prefaced with this note: “Apocrypha—that is, books which are not held equal to the Holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.”

 

[yankee_drifter]

Question for MD, and Yankee, re. Purgatory;

Obviously there is a reason for purgatory, why it needs to be so.

So my question to you both is why, if you are both born again christians, why do you sin?

What does this have to do with purgatory?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, you are all over the board. This is the Purgatory thread. We cannot respond to anything on here that has nothing to do with the topic. However, you and I have gone over all of this in PM…

Notice what is happening here…previously Yankee_drifter wrote the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee_drifter forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Jesus Christ, before His ascension to heaven, gave us, not a man to lead, guide and teach us Truth, but gave us the Holy Spirit.

Using this assertion as a preface, he went on to preach more of his non-Catholic theology.

However, when I responded with an detailed explanation as to why his premise is flatly wrong, he tells me that I am off topic.

Wonder why?

 

[yankee_drifter]

Like asking what air has to do with lungs.

If St. Paul continues to sin after he has been born again he cannot enter heaven until all sin has been blotted out confession and purgatory are the means for blotting out sin after you have been born again and saved. As if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. If you are not forgiven you are not '‘saved’, I suspect.
The English military had a phrase when the odds were against them, Divide and Conquer.
But some things cannot be divided as you may wish.

I’m assuming this is the interpretation of your church. I read nothing of this in the Holy Scriptures. The apostle Paul was depending on the grace of God and not on perfect obedience because he realized his own fallen nature and the hopelessness of trying to keep God’s law, i.e. the 10 Commandments. He simply couldn’t do it and neither can we.This is why Christ came and died for us. The difference between Paul and roman catholic teaching is that Paul based his salvation on the blood sacrifice of Christ and the grace of God. Not not his own merit. He did not teach he would need to be purified after death. Yet this apostle said he had preached the entire Gospel. He said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He never mentioned any intermediate place. We enter heaven because of what Christ did at Calvary, not for any other reason. Christ redeems and purifies the sinner who comes to Him. Read Hebrews. But because we are still human, still have a fallen nature, we still sin, but God has provided a way for us, through His Son. When we confess, He is faithful to forgive and cleanses us of all unrighteousness. The born again Christian is not perfect yet, but he’s been forgiven. Perhaps the reason why you believe that when you die you will still be stained with sins and therefore cannot enter heaven is because you have not been forgiven. You have not come to the Cross. Jesus is waiting for you to come to Him with your sins, give them to Him and trust Him for your eternal salvation. This is what Paul did.

 

[Thing]

I’m assuming this is the interpretation of your church 1… (** I read nothing of this in the Holy Scriptures. ** ). The apostle Paul was depending on the grace of God and not on perfect obedience because he realized his own fallen nature and the hopelessness of trying to keep God’s law, i.e. the 10 Commandments. He simply couldn’t do it and neither can we.This is why Christ came and died for us. The difference between Paul and roman catholic teaching is that Paul based his salvation on the blood sacrifice of Christ and the grace of God. Not not his own merit. He did not teach he would need to be purified after death. 2. ( **Yet this apostle said he had preached the *entire ***Gospel. ). He said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He never mentioned any intermediate place. We enter heaven because of what Christ did at Calvary, not for any other reason. 3. ( Christ redeems and purifies the sinner who comes to Him ) . Read Hebrews. But because we are still human, still have a fallen nature, we still sin, but God has provided a way for us, through His Son. When we confess, He is faithful to forgive and cleanses us of all unrighteousness. The born again Christian is not perfect yet, but he’s been forgiven. Perhaps the reason why you believe that when you die you will still be stained with sins and therefore cannot enter heaven is because you have not been forgiven. You have not come to the Cross. Jesus is waiting for you to come to Him with your sins, give them to Him and trust Him for your eternal salvation. This is what Paul did.

1. You have read that the Holy Spirit was sent to the church to guide the Apostles. Jesus was with the Apostles to guide them whilst He was alive. When He died He sent the Holy Spirit to them. ‘I will not leave you orphans’ He said. Though His physical presence guiding them is gone His Holy Spirit was sent to them to remain with them always. To suggest the Holy Spirit abandoned them is cruel and scripturally untrue.
2. Yes he preached the entire Gospel, did he say he wrote the entire Gospel. Hold to all I have taught you whether by word or by letter.
3. Yes. This is what happens in the Sacrament of Confession; the sinner who goes to Him is purified.

This ties in with purgatory as purgatory is the last Confession and final purifying of those who are saved.
Paul could not bring his sins with him into heaven any more than the rich man can bring his money with him. Both of these things must be left outside of heaven. If you remain saved until your death you can leave these things after you perfectly or imperfectly in this world, or, failing that, perfectly in the world to come.

 

[Carlan]

they argued that Christians could and even should read the books of the Apocrypha as literature that could enhance their lives before God.

In his German Bible, Luther placed the books of the apocrypha in a section between the Old and New Testaments prefaced with this note: “Apocrypha—that is, books which are not held equal to the Holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.”

I do not accept your interpretation* or *your particular church’s interpretation of theology or Luther’s disobedience to the authority of Christ’s Apostolic Church.

I accept the teaching of Christ’s Apostolic Church guided by His Holy Spirit and handed on down to us through His teaching authority,Tradition, Scripture and the Magisterium, together as the only Authority. God shine your light us all and fill us with your Truth.Carlan