purgatory

[PRmerger]

I deny both that she was sinless (having been born in Adam) and that she’s my “Blessed Mother.” Neither are in Scripture, neither have Divine support.

Well, do you at least fulfill Scripture and call Mary blessed? I would love to hear you call her something, well, Scriptural and call her the [SIGN]Blessed Mary.[/SIGN]

Or are you so opposed all things Catholic that you will sacrifice Scripture to avoid acquiescing to the Catholic church’s tradition of calling her blessed? :coffeeread:

However, you are indeed revealing your peculiar brand of absurdity (and megalomania) in claiming that you are pure while objecting to Catholics calling Mary, the vessel which carried the Divine Word, sinful. :whacky:

 

[PRmerger]

Can you name for me those who witnessed it? Jesus had eye witnesses to His ascending into heaven, so who are Mary’s???

Do you have a Scripture verse that tells us that Mary’s Assumption had to be witnessed?

Do you have a Scripture verse that says that Mary died?

Do you have any artifacts locating Mary’s burial place? Any relics of her bones that were revered, as the early Church did (and continues to do to this day?)

 

[PRmerger]

Can you name for me those who witnessed it? Jesus had eye witnesses to His ascending into heaven, so who are Mary’s???

And yet, absurdly, you believe you will be assumed into heaven, but it’s simply impossible that the Mother of His Lord (who is to be called “blessed” in all ages!) would be assumed into heaven.

 

[moondweller]

And yet, absurdly, you believe you will be assumed into heaven, but it’s simply impossible that the Mother of His Lord (who is to be called “blessed” in all ages!) would be assumed into heaven.

I don’t know what you’re whistling about. You still haven’t named any eye witnesses to her assumption into heaven. Funny, not ONE person in history ever stepped forward and said they witnessed that marvelous event, yet all of you say it’s true. Based on what? All you’re doing is whistling Dixie.

 

[moondweller]

And yet, absurdly, you believe you will be assumed into heaven, but it’s simply impossible that the Mother of His Lord (who is to be called “blessed” in all ages!) would be assumed into heaven.

Both Mary and I will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air at the same time. She’ll be resurrected, and while I’m still alive in this body, it’s possible I’ll be translated from mortal to immoral instantly. If not, we’ll be resurrected together at the Rapture of His church. Now that’s something to whistle about, PR. That ain’t just whistling Dixie.

 

[moondweller]

And yet, absurdly, you believe you will be assumed into heaven, but it’s simply impossible that the Mother of His Lord (who is to be called “blessed” in all ages!) would be assumed into heaven.

The word is “genea,” (generations) not “aiōn” (ages).Luke 1:48 "For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave; For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed."Yes, she certainly was blessed among women (Lk. 1:42). But not to the point of being exalted above all women. That’s not what the Scripture says.

 

[Thing]

The word is “genea,” (generations) not “aiōn” (ages).Luke 1:48 "For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave; For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed."Yes, she certainly was blessed among women (Lk. 1:42). But not to the point of being exalted above all women. That’s not what the Scripture says.

And the angel being come in, said unto Moondweller: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among men.

And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among men…

Nee… nope. I cannot switch Mary with you. You are just not the same.
You are not blessed among men.

 

[Thing]

That’s very Biblical for you to say. :thumbsup:Col 3:3 “For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”

Col 3 Knowing that you shall receive of the Lord the reward of inheritance. Serve ye the Lord Christ. 25 | For he that doth wrong, shall receive for that which he hath done wrongfully: | and there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[joann1957]

I don’t know what you’re whistling about. You still haven’t named any eye witnesses to her assumption into heaven. Funny, not ONE person in history ever stepped forward and said they witnessed that marvelous event, yet all of you say it’s true. Based on what? All you’re doing is whistling Dixie.

…It certainly seems most fitting that the body of the Immaculate Mother of God should not taste corruption, and that it should share in the triumph of her Son, the Risen Christ.
The Immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever Virgin, after her life on earth, was assumed, body and soul to the glory of heaven.

If you live like a Saint as she did then one goes directly to heaven.

Jo ann

 

[yankee_drifter]

Originally Posted by Irish_Catholic
Great. Another poorly Catechised Catholic who bought into simplistic protestant propoganda.

You do realize, don’t you, that going by “scripture alone” IS a manmade tradition?

Scriptures alone is a man made tradition? Wow, so you’re saying that reading, searching, studying and obeying God’s word is man’s invention? Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but** my words will not pass away**.” (Matt. 24:35). In John 12:48 Jesus taught that His word would be the standard of judgment in the last day. He said, “He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (Catholic Rheims Translation). Companion verses show that men will be judged by “the gospel” (Rom. 2:16), and “the books” (Rev. 20:12). All of these are similar and reveal that men will be judged by the New Testament of Christ in the last day.

Where does Christ say anything about traditions? Why would I need the catechism when I have God’s Holy Word!

Luke 16:26 is evidence of the impossibility of purgatory.

“And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

The dialogue between the rich man and Lazarus shows the hopeless misery and the fruitless desires of the condemned spirits. There is a day coming, when those who now mock and despise the born-again believer in Christ would gladly receive kindness from them. But those who hate God’s people will not have any cessation of their torment. Its heaven or hell, nothing else! No stopping off place.The gulf is fixed. Sinners are now called to remember; but they do not, will not, find ways to avoid it. The unsaved person has good things only in this life, and at death he is forever separated from all good, so the born again Christian has evil things only in this life, and at death he is forever put from them.** In this world there is no gulf between a state of nature and grace, we may pass from sin to God; but if we die in our sins, there is no coming out**. The rich man had 5 brothers, and wanted to stop them in their sinful course from the same fate. How many would now desire to recall or to undo what they have written or done, but it will be too late!

Catholics use the rich man’s praying to Abraham to try and justify praying to deceased saints. But the mistake of a eternally damned sinner is all they can find for a “proof text.”. But Abraham responds that if the living will not listen to those prophets among them, then they surely will not listen to one who has returned from the dead! So all his prayers were made in vain. As are those prayers made to or for this rich man. A messenger from the dead could say no more than what is said in the Scriptures.

 

[joann1957]

Scriptures alone is a man made tradition? Wow, so you’re saying that reading, searching, studying and obeying God’s word is man’s invention? Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but** my words will not pass away**.” (Matt. 24:35). In John 12:48 Jesus taught that His word would be the standard of judgment in the last day. He said, “He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (Catholic Rheims Translation). Companion verses show that men will be judged by “the gospel” (Rom. 2:16), and “the books” (Rev. 20:12). All of these are similar and reveal that men will be judged by the New Testament of Christ in the last day.

Where does Christ say anything about traditions? Why would I need the catechism when I have God’s Holy Word!

Luke 16:26 is evidence of the impossibility of purgatory.

“And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

The dialogue between the rich man and Lazarus shows the hopeless misery and the fruitless desires of the condemned spirits. There is a day coming, when those who now mock and despise the born-again believer in Christ would gladly receive kindness from them. But those who hate God’s people will not have any cessation of their torment. Its heaven or hell, nothing else! No stopping off place.The gulf is fixed. Sinners are now called to remember; but they do not, will not, find ways to avoid it. The unsaved person has good things only in this life, and at death he is forever separated from all good, so the born again Christian has evil things only in this life, and at death he is forever put from them.** In this world there is no gulf between a state of nature and grace, we may pass from sin to God; but if we die in our sins, there is no coming out**. The rich man had 5 brothers, and wanted to stop them in their sinful course from the same fate. How many would now desire to recall or to undo what they have written or done, but it will be too late!

Catholics use the rich man’s praying to Abraham to try and justify praying to deceased saints. But the mistake of a eternally damned sinner is all they can find for a “proof text.”. But Abraham responds that if the living will not listen to those prophets among them, then they surely will not listen to one who has returned from the dead! So all his prayers were made in vain. As are those prayers made to or for this rich man. A messenger from the dead could say no more than what is said in the Scriptures.

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” [Matthew 12:32] This reference to two worlds is held to be proof of Purgatory

.IF there are some sins that can be pardoned in the other world it is neither in hell nor in heaven, therefore it is in Purgatory. Now, that there are sins which are pardoned in the other world we prove, firstly, by the passage of S. Matthew in chap. xii., where Our Lord says that there is a sin which cannot be forgiven either in this world or in the next: therefore there are sins which can be forgiven in the other world

. For if there were no sins which could be forgiven in the other world it was not now necessary to attribute this property of not being. able to be forgiven in the next world to one sort of sins, but it sufficed to say it could not be forgiven in this world. When Our Lord had said to Pilate My kingdom is not of this world.

 

[Thing]

Scriptures alone is a man made tradition? Wow, so you’re saying that reading, searching, studying and obeying God’s word is man’s invention? Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but** my words will not pass away**.” (Matt. 24:35). In John 12:48 Jesus taught that His word would be the standard of judgment in the last day. He said, “He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (Catholic Rheims Translation). .

36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. - Jesus says.

Where exactly is this place where you *shall *render an account of every idle word, yankee Doodle?

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Scriptures alone is a man made tradition? Wow, so you’re saying that reading, searching, studying and obeying God’s word is man’s invention?..

Do not twist my words. I did not say that reading, searching, studying and obeying God’s word is man’s invention. I said that going by Scripture Alone - Sola Scriptura - is a manmade tradition, invented in the 16th century by the heretic revolters.

God’s Word is not a “book”, which is why Scripture Alone is a false methodology. The Word of God is a person: JESUS. Therefore everything that he said, and everything that the Apostles taught in his name is the Word of God, and all of that is not contained in the Bible alone.

Sola Scriptura, more than anything else, is responsible for the thousands of protestant denominations that exist today, each teaching conflicting contradictory doctrines, which is proof of the wrongness of that methodology.

 

[guanophore]

And the angel being come in, said unto Moondweller: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among men.

And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among men…

Nee… nope. I cannot switch Mary with you. You are just not the same.
You are not blessed among men.

Moon is correct that the experience of Mary in glorification is that to which we all look with hopeful expectation. We all can expect to be raised imperishable.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Moon is correct that the experience of Mary in glorification is that to which we all look with hopeful expectation. We all can expect to be raised imperishable.

Yes, but it DID happen to her already, which is where he ERRS

May I ask why you continue to encourage this person who spreads false doctrine which is in direct opposition to Catholic beliefs?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Oh, but Christ did so much more than open the door to heaven. He gave His life for you and bore the punishment that you and I deserve on His own body. His blood atonement was sufficient, perfect and complete, thus making “purgatory” totally unnecessary.

[SIGN]The apostles had assurance of going straight to heaven, why don’t you?

/SIGN

They Did??? I think Paul would have to call you on that one. If The Apostles were so sure why did Paul said he was working out his salvation with fear and trembling? Now here is a riddle for you all. Is yankee contradicting Paul or is Paul contradicting Yankee?

Or is he going to say Paul isn’t a Apostle now?

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Originally Posted by yankee_drifter forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*
The apostles had assurance of going straight to heaven, why don’t you?*

LOL. Nonsense. Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course. The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not. For example, Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

They Did??? I think Paul would have to call you on that one. If The Apostles were so sure why did Paul said he was working it our with fear and trembleling?

Great question. You are correct.

 

[guanophore]

Scriptures alone is a man made tradition? Wow, so you’re saying that reading, searching, studying and obeying God’s word is man’s invention?

No, not at all Yankee. These are Catholic Traditions. Sola Scriptura is the man made tradition.

Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but** my words will not pass away**." (Matt. 24:35). In John 12:48 Jesus taught that **His word would be the standard of judgment in the last day**. He said, "He that despiseth me, and **receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day**." (Catholic Rheims Translation).

Right!

However, He NEVER said His Eternal Word is confined to the Holy Scriptures.

Companion verses show that men will be judged by “the gospel” (Rom. 2:16), and “the books” (Rev. 20:12). All of these are similar and reveal that men will be judged by the New Testament of Christ in the last day.

No, yankee, they don’t. While I agree with you that judgement will not occur apart from what is contained in the NT, the NT was not yet existing at that time, and “the books” are the books of life and death that were written before the foundation of the world. He is speaking there of the books where the names of the saved are written (book of life) and not the NT. The Gospel is also not confined to the NT.

Where does Christ say anything about traditions? Why would I need the catechism when I have God’s Holy Word!

He talks about Sacred Tradition throughout His ministry, and the Apostles continue to do so. The reason one needs a Teaching Authority appointed by Christ is that when each individual interprets, they understand what they read in the light of their own expeirence an education, or lack of it. This causes as many misunderstandings of what is read as there are belly buttons.

Luke 16:26 is evidence of the impossibility of purgatory.

“And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

The dialogue between the rich man and Lazarus shows the hopeless misery and the fruitless desires of the condemned spirits. There is a day coming, when those who now mock and despise the born-again believer in Christ would gladly receive kindness from them. But those who hate God’s people will not have any cessation of their torment. Its heaven or hell, nothing else! No stopping off place.The gulf is fixed. Sinners are now called to remember; but they do not, will not, find ways to avoid it. The unsaved person has good things only in this life, and at death he is forever separated from all good, so the born again Christian has evil things only in this life, and at death he is forever put from them.** In this world there is no gulf between a state of nature and grace, we may pass from sin to God; but if we die in our sins, there is no coming out**. The rich man had 5 brothers, and wanted to stop them in their sinful course from the same fate. How many would now desire to recall or to undo what they have written or done, but it will be too late! [/qutoe]

There is nothing you have said here that refutes the doctrine of Purgaotory. I can only imagine that you don’t understand it.
yankee_drifter;5992848:

Catholics use the rich man’s praying to Abraham to try and justify praying to deceased saints. But the mistake of a eternally damned sinner is all they can find for a “proof text.”.

There are two problems with this, Yankee. One is that Catholics need no :justification for praying to saints (who are alive with the Lord, by the way). This is a Jewish practice we reveived as part of our spiritual heritage from Jesus and the Apostles, and was practiced for hundreds of years before the NT was ever written. And that brings the second error of your statement. Catholics do not require “proof texts” either. We understand that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics, and fully reflects the Catholic faith. There is no need for us to abuse the Holy Scriputres in this manner, because the doctrine of the faith was committed whole and entire to the Apostles before a word of it was ever written.

But Abraham responds that if the living will not listen to those prophets among them, then they surely will not listen to one who has returned from the dead! So all his prayers were made in vain. As are those prayers made to or for this rich man.

No, yankee, The fact that the hard of heart do not accept the Truth, even if one is raised from the dead does not equate to prayers being made “in vain”. We should always and everywhere pray that such souls will come to Jesus, especially those in most need of His mercy.

A messenger from the dead could say no more than what is said in the Scriptures.

Actually, he certainly can! Jesus had 40 days of stuff to say to the disciples after He rose from the dead, none of the contents of which is recorded. The point He is making is that a person who is not disposed to receive the Truth already revealed in Scripture is not able to recieve more. This was also true of the scribes and pharisees, who searched the scriptures to learn ofo the Messiah, but in their hardness of heart, refused to come to Him, that they might find life.

His Life has never been confined to the pages of a book, however holy.

 

[PRmerger]

Scriptures alone is a man made tradition? Wow, so you’re saying that reading, searching, studying and obeying God’s word is man’s invention? Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but** my words will not pass away**.” (Matt. 24:35). In John 12:48 Jesus taught that His word would be the standard of judgment in the last day. He said, “He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (Catholic Rheims Translation). Companion verses show that men will be judged by “the gospel” (Rom. 2:16), and “the books” (Rev. 20:12). All of these are similar and reveal that men will be judged by the New Testament of Christ in the last day.

Thanks for all those verse that talk about the importance of Scripture. That’s very Catholic of you to say that! (In addition, each time you quote a verse in Scripture you’re giving tacit approval to the CC’s authority–for it was the CC that told you that these words were actually Scripture and not just “interesting stuff about God” )

Anyhoo…Irish Catholic’s point was that SCRIPTURE ALONE is a man-made tradition. Unless you can quote us a verse that tells you to go by SCRIPTURE ALONE? Chapter and verse, please!

Why would I need the catechism when I have God’s Holy Word!

Because without the Catechism you get over 40,000 different interpretations of God’s Holy Word–each one claiming to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. 40,000! [SIGN]That’s obscene!![/SIGN] A tradition that I believe is not man-made, but made by the Deceiver.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, but it DID happen to her already, which is where he ERRS

May I ask why you continue to encourage this person who spreads false doctrine which is in direct opposition to Catholic beliefs?

Dear Brother in Christ,

If there were no errors, and no false doctrine, and no opposition to the Apsotolic faith, there would be no NEED for an Apologetics minsitry?

In the spirit of ecumenism, I have tried to affirm Moon where he does not depart from the Apostolic Teaching. They are few and foar between, so it is a challenge!