purgatory

[PRmerger]

I don’t know what you’re whistling about. You still haven’t named any eye witnesses to her assumption into heaven. Funny, not ONE person in history ever stepped forward and said they witnessed that marvelous event, yet all of you say it’s true. Based on what? All you’re doing is whistling Dixie.

Still waiting for these verses, moon:
Do you have a Scripture verse that tells us that Mary’s Assumption had to be witnessed?

Do you have a Scripture verse that says that Mary died?

OR!

Do you have any artifacts locating Mary’s burial place? Any relics of her bones that were revered, as the early Church did (and continues to do to this day?)

Isn’t it interesting that no records of the early church show Christians venerating the relics of the Blessed Mother?

 

[PRmerger]

The word is “genea,” (generations) not “aiōn” (ages).Luke 1:48 “For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave; For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.”[SIGN]**Yes, she certainly was blessed among women **[/SIGN](Lk. 1:42). But not to the point of being exalted above all women. That’s not what the Scripture says.

Okay. All generations shall call Mary blessed. That means you!

I just love to see you call our Mother blessed, moon! Remember, you’re submitting to God’s Word when you do so.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Still waiting for these verses, moon:
[SIGN]Do you have a Scripture verse that tells us that Mary’s Assumption had to be witnessed[/SIGN]?

Do[SIGN] you have a Scripture verse that says that Mary died?[/SIGN]
OR!

Do [SIGN]you have any artifacts locating Mary’s burial [/SIGN]place? Any relics of her bones that were revered, as the early Church did (and continues to do to this day?)

Isn’t it interesting that no records of the early church show Christians venerating the relics of the Blessed Mother?

As my little brother used to say you have a better chance of seeing Jesus then seeing that today! But who knows? We know. Because we have ST to back up SS thats why:thumbsup:

It’s called faith Moon. Faith that what the Apostles told us is the truth. Faith that the HS is leading the Church as Jesus said. Its all faith. If we cannot believe what the Apostles taught about the Blessed Mother in ST how can we believe what they taught in the Gospel for goodness sakes. It all came from the same place. Why would God lie to us on one thing and not another. He wouldn’t. God would never lie. Rather its SS or ST its GOD WORD!

But if you want to show proof moon, how about you do it! You want us to prove a teaching of the CC and I admit we can’t. We can’t really prove anything. You either believe what the word of God is or you don’t. Bu tell me moon what proof do you have? Show me. Prove to me that the gospel was inspired by God. You can’t moon. IT all comes from grace and faith in God. Its inside you soul. You cannot show whats in your soul. you can’t prove everything in the bible, or ST but when you have faith and Grace why would you have to anyway?

 

[moondweller]

Still waiting for these verses, moon:
Do you have a Scripture verse that tells us that Mary’s Assumption had to be witnessed?

Did I say there had to be a Scripture verse? I asked you to NAME even one eye witness to this supposed event. Well?

Do you have a Scripture verse that says that Mary died?

I don’t even have a Scripture verse that says Peter or Paul died. Does that mean they too were assumed into heaven bodily?

OR!

Do you have any artifacts locating Mary’s burial place?

There were no “artifacts” indicating Christ’s burial place. The one they chose many years later was chosen randomly.

Any relics of her bones that were revered, as the early Church did (and continues to do to this day?

I find it amazing you people actually do revere dead body parts and actually believe what the legend says they are.

Isn’t it interesting that no records of the early church show Christians venerating the relics of the Blessed Mother?

Not really. No venerating of dead body parts is interesting to me.

Names please! :bounce:

 

[rinnie]

Dear Brother in Christ,

If there were no errors, and no false doctrine, and no opposition to the Apsotolic faith, there would be no NEED for an Apologetics minsitry?

In the spirit of ecumenism, I have tried to affirm Moon where he does not depart from the Apostolic Teaching. They are few and foar between, so it is a challenge!

Correct. All we have is Gods Grace and the faith to follow it through. We as Catholics must defend our faith just as the Apostles did. And it would be great if we all followed the same teachings, but as Jesus told us many will be led astray why? Because we want to follow ourself and not God anymore. But the Church will not let that happen. That is why many have left the Church but the Church has left none. The Church is the real living Spirit of Jesus Christ always ready and willing to welcome us all back home!

 

[rinnie]

And moon keep trying! Once in a BLUE moon you may even get it right Just kidding couldn’t pass that one up! You know we all love and respect you Just don’t see eye to eye is all!:wink:

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

…No venerating of dead body parts is interesting to me…

Then I suggest you read up on early Christian practices. And I quote:

Relics in Early Christianity

The veneration of relics is seen explicitly as early as the account of Polycarp’s martyrdom written by the Smyrnaeans in A.D. 156. In it, the Christians describe the events following his burning at the stake: “We took up his bones, which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place, where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy and to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom.”

In speaking of the veneration of relics in the early Church, the anti-Catholic historian Adolph Harnack writes, “. . . [N]o Church doctor of repute restricted it. All of them rather, even the Cappadocians, countenanced it. The numerous miracles which were wrought by bones and relics seemed to confirm their worship. The Church therefore would not give up the practice, although a violent attack was made upon it by a few cultured heathens and besides by the Manichaeans” (Harnack, History of Dogma, tr., IV, 313).

In the fourth century the great biblical scholar, Jerome, declared, “We do not worship, we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore him whose martyrs they are” (Ad Riparium, i, P.L., XXII, 907). `

Relics in Scripture

Keep in mind what the Church says about relics. It doesn’t say there is some magical power in them. There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or water from Lourdes, that has any curative ability. The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.

The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: “So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet” (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!

Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them” (Acts 19:11-12).

If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are? In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones. In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures. There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice. If you reject all Catholic relics today as frauds, you should also reject these biblical accounts as frauds.

source: LINK

 

[guanophore]

Well?I don't even have a Scripture verse that says Peter or Paul died.  Does that mean they too were assumed into heaven bodily?

What makes you think they were not?

 find it amazing you people actually do revere dead body parts and actually believe what the legend says they are....  Not really. No venerating of dead body parts is interesting to me.

Yeah, I can understand that. It is about as objectionable as using someones handkerchief as an object of divine grace and healing.

God has been workign miracles through those "dead bodies’ for millennia:

2Ki 13:20 So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year.
2Ki 13:21 And as a man was being buried, behold, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha, and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.

All relics, body parts and otherwise, are only revered because these kiind of events have occurred around them, or they are incorrupt.

I would be interested in your take on the incorruptibles too, Moon. Do you think Satan preserves those bodies so as to deceive Catholics, who believe it was God?

 

[guanophore]

Did I say there had to be a Scripture verse?

Yes actually, you did. If one reviews your post in this thread, you are quite disdainful of any doctrine that you cannot see in the Scriptures. You go so far as to say that, if you cannot see it there, it is not part of Divine Revelation. This frightening proclamaition actually makes moondwellers perception of what the bible says the standard in determining divine revelation. So, yes, I do think you have said this.

 

[PRmerger]

There were no “artifacts” indicating Christ’s burial place.

Exactly! All one has to do to disprove Christianity is to find any artifacts of Christ’s bones-voila! The Resurrection of Christ is disproven. So, no artifacts means Christ could have ascended into heaven. Atheists would jump for joy at any archeological finds such as these.

No artifacts of Mary, means Mary could have been assumed into heaven.

I find it amazing you people actually do revere dead body parts and actually believe what the legend says they are.Not really. No venerating of dead body parts is interesting to me.

Ok. You don’t have to venerate dead body parts to be a Catholic.

However, there still are no “dead body parts” of Mary. If you could produce any, then Mary’s assumption would be disproven, yes?

 

[moondweller]

Yes actually, you did. If one reviews your post in this thread, you are quite disdainful of any doctrine that you cannot see in the Scriptures. You go so far as to say that, if you cannot see it there, it is not part of Divine Revelation. This frightening proclamaition actually makes moondwellers perception of what the bible says the standard in determining divine revelation. So, yes, I do think you have said this.

No, my friend, I asked her for NAMES of those who witnessed her bodily assumption into heaven. Jesus Himself left us with eye witnesses of His bodily resurrection and ascension. I would expect no less of Mary’s bodily assumption into heaven if it was at all true.

Contrary to what “Thing” has stated, true Christianity is not based on “blind” faith.1 John 1:1-3 "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."That’s not blind faith, my friend. Nothing is left to legends as it is with the religions of this world, ancient and modern. It’s what sets true Christianity apart from ANY of them.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Have we drifted off topic?

 

[moondweller]

No artifacts of Mary, means Mary could have been assumed into heaven.

Very faulty logic, indeed.

However, there still are no “dead body parts” of Mary. If you could produce any, then Mary’s assumption would be disproven, yes?

No, the burden is not to “disprove” it, but to PROVE the assertion.

assertion: A declaration that is made emphatically (as if no supporting evidence were necessary)]

 

[moondweller]

Have we drifted off topic?

Yes. But the assumption of Mary into heaven bodily falls into the same category as purgatory. It’s asserted by men and introduced into Christianity without any proof or Scriptural support.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Getting back on topic, I’d like to repeat an earlier post of mine that I thought was pretty good:

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

Sanctification and growing in holiness is a PROCESS which spans our lives. When one understands this Biblical truth, then one understands that this process must at some point be completed, at which time we are perfectly sanctified and holy. Obviously, that process is not completed when we die, because at that moment of death we are still imperfect and are sinners. The only logical conclusion is that the process is completed AFTER death. Hence, Purgatory.

 

[moondweller]

God has been workign miracles through those "dead bodies’ for millennia:

2Ki 13:20 So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year.
2Ki 13:21 And as a man was being buried, behold, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha, and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.

Oh my gosh, guanophore, they were there to bury a man, not venerate the bones of Elisha. You say such things were going on for millennia. Can you show me where it’s recorded in Scripture that such an event happened again (and again)? Did Jesus or the Apostles use dead bones to resuscitate the dead? Where is it recorded that Jesus or any of the Apostles venerated dead body parts? Even under the Law of Moses the one who touched a dead person was considered unclean and had to go through the rituals.Num 19:11 'The one who touches the corpse of any person shall be unclean for seven days."True Christianity is not at all about the dead but the living. Our faith is not at all about dead things but life eternal in the risen Christ.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Yes. But the assumption of Mary into heaven bodily falls into the same category as purgatory. It’s asserted by men and introduced into Christianity without any proof or Scriptural support.

LOL. The inspiration of the Bible is also asserted by men. It was written by men. The books within it were chosen by men. Whats your point?

 

[Thing]

No, my friend, I asked her for NAMES of those who witnessed her bodily assumption into heaven. Jesus Himself left us with eye witnesses of His bodily resurrection and ascension. I would expect no less of Mary’s bodily assumption into heaven if it was at all true.

Contrary to what “Thing” has stated, true Christianity is not based on “blind” faith.1 John 1:1-3 "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."That’s not blind faith, my friend. Nothing is left to legends as it is with the religions of this world, ancient and modern. It’s what sets true Christianity apart from ANY of them.

While its nice to see that you’re thinking of me, I think. You may be confused about posts.

The Gospels were written, one at least on request, to teach more, about the life of Jesus.
As in, it was Jesus’ life which was the motive and focus of the Gospel. Not Josephs life nor Marys life.
St. John the Apostle, well, how may letters did he write to the Church during his 60 years of life after the death of Jesus? He must, like the other Apostles have spent his life preaching to the Church. But where are all the records of his preaching. Did the Holy Spirit let this great Apostles teaching go to loss, to waste. Not at all. The Church was where St. John left his preaching, and the Church preserved his teaching when the Church taught in turn its new priests and bishops. And these Traditions, and traditions are in such manner preserved and handed on through the Church. St. John to St. Polycarp to St. Irenaeus and so on through the centuries.
In the fifth century, St. Augustine commented on the feast, “This venerable day has dawned, the day that surpasses all the festivals of the saints, this most exalted and solemn day on which the Blessed Virgin was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. On this day the queenly Virgin was exalted to the very throne of God the Father, and elevated to such a height that the angelic spirits are in admiration.” St. Jerome observed, “We read how the angels have come to the death and burial of some of the saints, and how they have accompanied the souls of the elect to Heaven with hymns and praises. How much more should we believe that the heavenly army, with all its bands, came forth rejoicing in festal array, to meet the Mother of God, to surround her with effulgent light, and to lead her with praises and canticles to the throne prepared for her from the beginning of the world!”

 

[PRmerger]

Very faulty logic, indeed.No, the burden is not to “disprove” it, but to PROVE the assertion.

assertion: A declaration that is made emphatically (as if no supporting evidence were necessary)]

Fair enough.

I’m just saying that you have a very, very peculiar paradigm in which you can claim PURITY, but deny the same to another creature, Mary. who was most certainly washed in the blood of the Lamb–in the most extraordinary way to be sure!

AND, in which you can claim you can be assumed straight into heaven, yet deny the same to another creature, Mary–the BLESSED one (according to Scripture, yes??)

I’m not saying that I’m going to PROVE Mary’s assumption here. I’m just saying that if YOU believe it’s possible for yourself–the logical conclusion is that you should also believe it’s possible for Mary. YOU believe in purity of your soul at this very moment–the logical conclusion is that you should also believe it’s possible for Mary.

Of course, any denial of this logic is obfuscation caused by the Deceiver.

 

[PRmerger]

Can you show me where it’s recorded in Scripture that such an event happened again (and again)?

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 19:11-12[/BIBLEDRB]

**How about that? **

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 5:14-16[/BIBLEDRB]
**
And that? **

Not to mention 2 Kgs. 13:20-21 is an unambiguous Scriptural example of a miraculous event by God through contact with the relics of a saint!