Purgatory

[Alindawyl]

And just so I get this right, because I think I had it backwards which is why I was confused…the order in which it occurs…

You live. You sin. You accept God, or you dont.

You die. Then one of two things happens:

A. If during life you sinned and didnt accept God, you go straight to Hell. Never meet Christ, because you’ve already denied Him in life. End of story.

B. If you accepted Christ as your saviour, you will go to Purgatory, work off the scars of your sins so that your soul is beautified and made pure and perfect for heaven.

Once B is completed you meet with Christ- and enter pearly gates.

Yeah?

I was under the impression once you died FIRST you met Christ and either accepted or rejected Him, and by that choice determined if you went to purgatory or hell…

And I dont know why saying that someone has to ‘accept or reject’ Christ is ‘uncatholic’??? (as per an earlier poster) I thought that was the whole basis for your salvation?!

We choose for or against God during our lives here on earth. When we die we are immediately judged by God. That particular judgement will be either heaven or hell. If we chose against God and for self, then our choice consigns us to hell.

If we chose against self and for God, then our choice permits us to enter heaven. But for those who choose in favor of God, there is the additional step of being made pure before we can come before God. If we were able to accomplish that purity during our life, then we go to heaven without passing through Purgatory. If we were not, then we must first go through Purgatory before coming before God in heaven.

The concept of limbo as a place for those who die with original sin but without having committed any sins of their own (babies in the womb or children before the age of reason who have not been baptized) is a theological speculation. We don’t know if that’s the case or not. God may grant all such souls a supernatural gift at the point of death to have enough cognitive ability to understand what baptism of desire is, and choose for or against him with that knowledge. He may unconditionally permit all of them to enter heaven and wipe away original sin if the soul lacks personal sin. Limbo may be real. God didn’t reveal the fate of souls in that situation to us, so all of it is theological speculation.

That’s why we are asked to pray for the souls of ALL the departed, especially those who have no one to pray for them. Better to assume our prayers are needed when they are not than to assume our prayers are not needed when they are.

 

[agent_grey]

I look at purgatory as a process and not so much a place. While the implication that those in this process are not yet in heavan but entering it would lead some to believe that it is a place.

But

I also view both Heavan and Hell as a state of existance and not so much a place. Both these conditions exist in each and every one of us today.

The way I see it. Some time after death we enter the fire that is Gods love. Evil and rightouse alike. The truly rightous that achieved perfect perfection in life suffer no loss and are emediately in the state of Perfection with God. While those that have faith in Christ but did not perform perfect works still have some tweaking and purifying as they loose the part of them self that is a barrier. Those that Reject Christ have no hope and find themselfs in a state of eternal shame. God still loves them but there opportunity to be good with God and experience God without shame has come and gone.

Not to put this forward as church teachings but this is just how I view things at this point in time.

 

[Charlotte408]

I wonder if its possible, for a situation like this to happen then…

Person lives, and during their life, lets say they were an athiest. They flat out denied Christ.

So they die, and Judgement happens immediately, they rejected Christ in life so they go to hell.

But what if, when faced with Christ, they back step and say I had no idea, I’m so sorry- Please dont forsake me, or what have you.

Would they then go to purgatory to work off their sins, and then heaven? or is it the choice you made on earth it for you?

 

[Charlotte408]

oh and to continue, what if that person, since they rejected Christ in life, did go to hell, and after however long there, changed his mind? could someone do that? I’ve made (admittedly bad) choices in life, and then later regretted them…no stories of anyone, saints or anything that have done that?

Because it seems to me that if Christ is all forgiving, he would forgive even then.

 

[agent_grey]

AAAAHHH! I HATE abortion!! so much more now even!! thats sooo horrible…

I hate it also. It is murder. I am however pro choice. But pro choice in the sence that we have been given the right to choose the wrong way and suffer the consequences.

Its just to bad that murder in this form does not come with corporal consequences but I am sure the consequence of the conscience is much worse.

Let us pray for these murdered children and even more so the people guilty of such a dispicable crime.

Glory be to Yahwey the redeemer!

 

[rwillenborg]

I wonder if its possible, for a situation like this to happen then…

Person lives, and during their life, lets say they were an athiest. They flat out denied Christ.

So they die, and Judgement happens immediately, they rejected Christ in life so they go to hell.

But what if, when faced with Christ, they back step and say I had no idea, I’m so sorry- Please dont forsake me, or what have you.

Would they then go to purgatory to work off their sins, and then heaven? or is it the choice you made on earth it for you?

A couple things.

1. I have a daughter named charlotte. I LOVE that name!
2. It is unknown to us what happens in the final moments of a person’s life. Basically, until the VERY LAST MOMENT that a person is alive, they can still repent from their sins and get to heaven. And, since we don’t really know what is happening in the final moments of a person’s life, they could very well be repenting of their sins in their final breath. We have no way of knowing.

A few words about purgatory.
This is just a couple of analogies which helped me to understand the concept.
Purgatory is often called the front porch of heaven. You’re there, you’re going, game over. But you DO have to wipe your feet before you come in.
Another analogy. Let’s say you threw a baseball and you broke my window and you come to my door and apologize profusely. I forgive you. But you still have to fix my window. That’s what purgatory is - it’s a PURGING of what is impure from us.

I have also heard Purgatory understood in terms of mercy. Purgatory is the last grace act of Mercy God bestows on us. Let’s say you die after having lived a good life, you were a faithful Catholic, and loved the Lord with your heart, mind and soul. But you HATE your slimebag of an ex-husband. He spent your life savings buying tacky lingerie for his mistress. He never sees the kids. All sorts of this kind of thing. I mean, you really harbor some ill will towards the man, even though you TRY daily to rid yourself of the hurt. Do you think God would let you carry that anger through ALL of eternity? Of course not! Wouldn’t it be miserable to spend eternity still hating your ex-husband? So, God gives you this one final act of mercy and PURGES you of all of that.

I hope this helped!!

 

[Alindawyl]

If it was possible for someone in hell to repent and wish to be in heaven, then of course God would forgive them and welcome them with open arms. But that isn’t the case. A soul in hell will NEVER want to be in heaven, and a soul in heaven will NEVER want to be in hell.

Someone we think is destined for hell may end up in heaven because they repent with their dying breath, while someone we are absolutely certain will go to heaven when they die could be very good at hiding their crimes and end up in hell. God knows everything and will make no mistakes. When God judges someone, justice will be perfect and mercy will likewise be perfect. No one will be somewhere they should not be.

 

[Charlotte408]

A couple things.

1. I have a daughter named charlotte. I LOVE that name!

AND I’m sure she’s ABSOLUTELY beautiful

1. It is unknown to us what happens in the final moments of a person’s life. Basically, until the VERY LAST MOMENT that a person is alive, they can still repent from their sins and get to heaven. And, since we don’t really know what is happening in the final moments of a person’s life, they could very well be repenting of their sins in their final breath. We have no way of knowing.

A few words about purgatory.
This is just a couple of analogies which helped me to understand the concept.
Purgatory is often called the front porch of heaven. You’re there, you’re going, game over. But you DO have to wipe your feet before you come in.

I LOOOOVE IT!!! I’m never going to forget that…totally gonna use it…

Another analogy. Let’s say you threw a baseball and you broke my window and you come to my door and apologize profusely. I forgive you. But you still have to fix my window. That’s what purgatory is - it’s a PURGING of what is impure from us.

I have also heard Purgatory understood in terms of mercy. Purgatory is the last grace act of Mercy God bestows on us. Let’s say you die after having lived a good life, you were a faithful Catholic, and loved the Lord with your heart, mind and soul. But you HATE your slimebag of an ex-husband. He spent your life savings buying tacky lingerie for his mistress. He never sees the kids. All sorts of this kind of thing. I mean, you really harbor some ill will towards the man, even though you TRY daily to rid yourself of the hurt. Do you think God would let you carry that anger through ALL of eternity? Of course not! Wouldn’t it be miserable to spend eternity still hating your ex-husband? So, God gives you this one final act of mercy and PURGES you of all of that.

I hope this helped!!

It did…I wonder…though…lol…sorry to keep going on but you gotta love the convo-

What things you get rid of in purgatory…I thought it was just our sins, but you raised a good point, our anger, hurt feelings, grudges…ALL that stuffs gotta go, your right.

What if you dont have any grudges? Like, me for example, I dont. I am one of those ‘no sweat off my back’ kinda chicks not even my babysdaddy bothers me- in fact I PRAY for him…that he’ll find a woman that can tame his behind…know what I mean??? LOL…

And I go to confession…so…those confessed sins are cleared…

And, hopefully on my deathbed…I’ll have a moment again to ask for forgiveness and ask for my saviours hand…((You can do that right?? Ask Him directly for forgiveness, it doesnt have to be a priest?, cuz what if I’m in a place where one isnt available to me and I’ve sinned since last confession?))

If all thats cleared than I should shoot straight thru right?

And no I’m not perfect…I struggle with…((judging people and thinking really, really mean thoughts about them)) I dont act out or gossip, but…its pretty malicious how I used to be and sometimes mentally I backtrack…I swear its the devil gettin’ in my head…

How do you purge yourself of that??? ((ugh I might be there a long time…))

And, are we with others in purgatory? I realize this is something we’d have to speculate on, but…just wondering if there might happen to be anything about the way it is…it might be harder to work out an issue like mine if theres no one there for me to, I guess learn, how to not- do- what I do…

 

[rwillenborg]

AND I’m sure she’s ABSOLUTELY beautiful

I LOOOOVE IT!!! I’m never going to forget that…totally gonna use it…

It did…I wonder…though…lol…sorry to keep going on but you gotta love the convo-

What things you get rid of in purgatory…I thought it was just our sins, but you raised a good point, our anger, hurt feelings, grudges…ALL that stuffs gotta go, your right.

What if you dont have any grudges? Like, me for example, I dont. I am one of those ‘no sweat off my back’ kinda chicks not even my babysdaddy bothers me- in fact I PRAY for him…that he’ll find a woman that can tame his behind…know what I mean??? LOL…

And I go to confession…so…those confessed sins are cleared…

And, hopefully on my deathbed…I’ll have a moment again to ask for forgiveness and ask for my saviours hand…((You can do that right?? Ask Him directly for forgiveness, it doesnt have to be a priest?, cuz what if I’m in a place where one isnt available to me and I’ve sinned since last confession?))

If all thats cleared than I should shoot straight thru right?

And no I’m not perfect…I struggle with…((judging people and thinking really, really mean thoughts about them)) I dont act out or gossip, but…its pretty malicious how I used to be and sometimes mentally I backtrack…I swear its the devil gettin’ in my head…

How do you purge yourself of that??? ((ugh I might be there a long time…))

And, are we with others in purgatory? I realize this is something we’d have to speculate on, but…just wondering if there might happen to be anything about the way it is…it might be harder to work out an issue like mine if theres no one there for me to, I guess learn, how to not- do- what I do…

Well, your sins are forgiven by Christ, so going to purgatory doesn’t rid you of sins, specifically, it rids you of the EFFECTS of those sins. Does that clear it up any? Because our God is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy, your sins are forgiven…but there still may be a penalty to pay.
You can, and should always be asking the Lord directly for forgiveness that’s to be sure, Confession is a wonderful gift to us, but it is only strictly necessary with mortal sins (though going for venial is a wonderful way to keep yourself AWAY from mortal sins, too).
You might shoot straight up to heaven, (and if you do remember me!! LOL!) who knows?
But lets take a moment and talk about that judging people. Like grudges, that’s not what you want to take with you into eternity, right? I mean, who wants to be hanging out in paradise saying ‘How did SHE get here?!?!’ LOL! And, again, these are things I know you are constantly working on and trying to correct, and as much as you strive for perfection, let’s be honest, it’s pretty hard to get. But being short of perfect won’t bar you from heaven. It WILL mean however, that those impurities will be purged.
As far as what purgatory is like, we really don’t know, except that it’s gonna suck.
Someone else would be better at saying where the verse is, but there is a verse talking about those who make bad works will be ‘burned up’ Yikes.
Although, I think there have been some statements from the saints about purgatory (it’s not official dogma, but still, it’s a place to start)
But I think prolly keeping on track and trying to stay OUT of purgatory is your best bet.
And yes, she IS beautiful!!

 

[peary1]

Ok, before Christ came-people couldnt get into heaven, because Adam & Eve disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit. Then, Christ came, the Redeemer, and He redeemed all man’s sins for the past and future…a new covenant…and now, when faced with Him in heaven…you just have to accept Him, not reject Him…because if you’ve accepted Him in your heart, then your forgiven of your sins…that is why, He sacrificed Himself on the cross…

Right???

Wrong. It is indicated in the Bible, but it does not come right out and say that no one was denied entrance into Heaven prior to the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and the establishment of the New Covenant. Elias and Enoch are two that come to mind where they were taken to Heaven by God.

So…then why is there purgatory? I could understand a purgatory BEFORE Christ came…kind of like a lobby for souls to wait for Christ to come and redeem them…but, if he’s forgiven and died for all souls to go to heaven, past and present, that would mean that everyone up there before Him was cleared, and everyone AFTER Him cleared- on the premise that they do not reject Him.

If you die, and go to heaven, and meet Jesus, and accept Him, He of course forgives you- because He ALREADY has- then why the further need for purgatory?

**Actually, purgatory is not a ‘place’ in the afterlife but the state of one’s soul when he or she dies. Nothing - NOTHING - ispermitted in Heaven that is imperfect. To experience an experience of purging our sins after death is to come face-to-face with God’s love and to finish the work we left unfinished while in life. One can accept Jesus but that doesn’t give one an automatic ticket to Heaven. **

**Posters Note: I am not a bible scholar (LOL) so can we please keep answers/conversation short, simple, straight to the point…no big crazy words I have to bust my dictionary out for! Just casual convo is much appreciated!!

 

[Shin]

Wrong. It is indicated in the Bible, but it does not come right out and say that no one was denied entrance into Heaven prior to the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and the establishment of the New Covenant. Elias and Enoch are two that come to mind where they were taken to Heaven by God.

Some of these questions and answers are a bit unclear to me as to what is actually being discussed.

But I will note that Elias and Enoch did not go to Heaven in the sense that they achieved the beatific vision. They went to Heaven in the physical sense, or rather special paradise, and this I believe it is said by some authorities to await and prepare for the end times.

No one, not one single person, went to Heaven in the sense of achieving the beatific vision, before Christ opened the gates. All of Creation waited and groaned for the Savior.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I have a book recommendation that would help with your understanding of purgatory. It’s really opened my eyes.
It’s called:
Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints by Fr. Francis Xavier Schouppe S. J.

It’s a really good, and very detailed book on the accounts of saints of their visions of purgatory or visions of those detained in purgatory. It sheds much needed light on the justice of God, which is not really spoken about often enough in our society.

 

[LilyM]

oh and to continue, what if that person, since they rejected Christ in life, did go to hell, and after however long there, changed his mind? could someone do that? I’ve made (admittedly bad) choices in life, and then later regretted them…no stories of anyone, saints or anything that have done that?

Because it seems to me that if Christ is all forgiving, he would forgive even then.

No. Your opportunities to ‘change your mind’ occur only during life, not after death. Someone who dies with their soul set against God is NOT going to meet Him in the afterlife and change their mind.

If Lucifer, who saw God face to face and yet rejected Him, hasn’t changed his mind, and WON’T change (as Our Lord says in the Gospels, Hell was prepared as the devil’s abode - which means he’ll be there for eternity) then what reason is there to believe anyone else will change their mind after death?

‘It is appointed to men to die once, and then the judgement’ as St Paul says. The only thing that occurs AFTER death is Judgement and the sentence that accompanies it - either to salvation or to condemnation. No changing of the outcome is possible after death.

 

[Shin]

I have a book recommendation that would help with your understanding of purgatory. It’s really opened my eyes.
It’s called:
Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints by Fr. Francis Xavier Schouppe S. J.

It’s a really good, and very detailed book on the accounts of saints of their visions of purgatory or visions of those detained in purgatory. It sheds much needed light on the justice of God, which is not really spoken about often enough in our society.

This was one of the first Catholic books I ever read, and it made a deep and lasting impression on me. I return to it regularly.

‘The servants of Mary who are in Purgatory receive visits and consolations from her.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

 

[Jerok]

And just so I get this right, because I think I had it backwards which is why I was confused…the order in which it occurs…

You live. You sin. You accept God, or you dont.

You die. Then one of two things happens:

A. If during life you sinned and didnt accept God, you go straight to Hell. Never meet Christ, because you’ve already denied Him in life. End of story.

B. If you accepted Christ as your saviour, you will go to Purgatory, work off the scars of your sins so that your soul is beautified and made pure and perfect for heaven.

Once B is completed you meet with Christ- and enter pearly gates.

Yeah?

I was under the impression once you died FIRST you met Christ and either accepted or rejected Him, and by that choice determined if you went to purgatory or hell…

And I dont know why saying that someone has to ‘accept or reject’ Christ is ‘uncatholic’??? (as per an earlier poster) I thought that was the whole basis for your salvation?!

You die. Upon death everyone’s soul is ultimately bound for either Heaven or Hell, and a certain number of those going to heaven go to Purgatory.

There is a judgment that sends your SOUL into heaven or hell, while your body remains on Earth. This is a temporary hell and heaven.

Then the resurrection of the body occurs, and the soul is united with the body, and the final judgment happens, where Jesus Himself reveals your judgment. Those who are doomed for Hell accept their fate, as God is Just and they know they deserve it. BODY and SOUL are sent to heaven or hell, eternally.

As to your question about ‘accept or reject’ Christ as being Uncatholic; This sounds much like a protestant thing, in that they believe if you ‘accept’ Jesus as your Lord you are saved right away, once and for all. Catholics believe you have to ‘accept’ Jesus and then follow the commandments, try to perfect the soul on Earth as much as possible, and die without a mortal sin on your soul.

Catholics believe that you can lose your salvation if you commit a mortal sin and don’t confess it or don’t feel perfect contrition for it. We then leave it to God’s infinite mercy and justice.

 

[Charlotte408]

Hm maybe thats an idea I got somewhere along the way then, and maybe even from a protestant church…I’ve been to a few different churches throughout my teens-early 20’s and maybe there are some ‘ideologies’ floating around that are causing these rifts in mah thinkin’

Because, yes, even though I knew we had to follow the commandments, confess, feel contrition, etc, I always thought the bottom line, of wether we went to heaven or not, was wether or not we accepted Christ. How LONG we stayed in purgatory depended on the above, or- if none of the above applied, then we have rejected Him and His ways altogether and then go to Hell.

 

[Jerok]

Hm maybe thats an idea I got somewhere along the way then, and maybe even from a protestant church…I’ve been to a few different churches throughout my teens-early 20’s and maybe there are some ‘ideologies’ floating around that are causing these rifts in mah thinkin’

Because, yes, even though I knew we had to follow the commandments, confess, feel contrition, etc, I always thought the bottom line, of wether we went to heaven or not, was wether or not we accepted Christ. How LONG we stayed in purgatory depended on the above, or- if none of the above applied, then we have rejected Him and His ways altogether and then go to Hell.

Amen, I say to you, accepting Christ means following his example as the Perfect Human and being as much like Him as possible. It is hypocritical to say you follow Christ and sin grievously with no sorrow, or if you have sorrow to make no attempt to stop sinning. Accepting Christ as your savior means also that you accept him as your moral teacher and strive to be perfect on Earth.

And this is where Protestants differ. Catholics and Protestants both believe in following Christ as the means of our salvation, but Protestants are ‘words only’ it seems, and the Catholic way of thinking is much deeper and more fulfilling. Protestant theology says Christ ‘covers’ your sins whereas Catholic theology says Christ infuses you and fills you with the Holy Spirit, and you must be willing to work with the grace he gives you.

To say you believe in Christ and then have nothing to show for it doesn’t seem to be what He would want.