Purgatory......

[rinnie]

KJV says in Colossians 1:14, that it is the blood of Christ which removes our sins!

I agree and that is accomplished through Baptism! But I do not see where it states that in order for the blood of Christ to remove our sins we must be a certain age!

 

[1beleevr]

Do I understand you to mean that no matter what we do we cannot sin? That sin is no longer present because Jesus abolished all sin for us?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Well of course we still sin; He did not remove our sin nature, just forgave all sins! Someone asked,“If we are saved, why do we have to repent?” If our sins were forgiven on the Cross(past present, and future) why do we have to keep asking for forgiveness?

 

[1beleevr]

I agree and that is accomplished through Baptism! But I do not see where it states that in order for the blood of Christ to remove our sins we must be a certain age!

So, in saying that, you are in essence saying that infnts are aware of their sins, and of age to understand baptism and salvation? The blood of Christ washes away sin; baptism seals salvation!

 

[Bill_Pick]

So, in saying that, you are in essence saying that infnts are aware of their sins, and of age to understand baptism and salvation? The blood of Christ washes away sin; baptism seals salvation!

A must read for 1beleevr from Catholic Creaschest
However, the Baptism by St. John was not yet a Christian Baptism, which began with Jesus Baptizing His disciples in John 3:22, and for all after the Resurrection of Christ. St John’s was a Baptism of repentance.

“I indeed baptize you with water, for repentance. But He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to bear. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.”
Matt 3:11

“If anyone thirst, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture says, From within Him there shall flow rivers of living water.” He said this, however, of the Spirit whom they who believed in Him were to receive; FOR THE SPIRIT HAD NOT YET BEEN GIVEN, SINCE JESUS HAD NOT YET BEEN GLORIFIED. John 7:37-39

And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” But they said to him, “We have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “How then were you baptized?” They said, “With John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John baptized the people with a baptism of repentance, telling them to believe in Him who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus;" Acts 19:2-5

 

[1beleevr]

My Dear Brother in Christ: I wish what you believe were true. If it were we would no longer have the very essence of evil ( sin ) in men like Hitler, Stalin, and the like. There would be no more murders, rapes, etc. All this evil IS sin. Please think it over. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Calm down, my brother in Christ Which sins did Christ take upon Himself? I am trying to show that ALL sin was forgiven on the Cross! We should flee from sin, this is true, but being covered by the blood, and being accepted and forgiven, gives us hope that we can fight bck against sin! Perhaps, banished was a poor choice of words!

 

[1beleevr]

If that were true, then why is it that those who do not believe still die in their sins? How can people die from something that has already been banished?

Why did the Apostles teach us to “flee from sin”, and give us the example to struggle throughout life against the sins of the flesh? Why work so hard against that which is already banished?

Such a statement reflects a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. You have been misled by the ideas of a Reformation attorney named Calvin.

This has been the unbroken teaching of the Church. Perhaps I am missing your point?

Baptism is the manner in which the blood of Christ is applied to the individual.

Everytime I read,“guanophore”, I envision a nun, arms crossed, ruler in hand, tapping her foot! I ahve not been misled by anyone! As promised, Jesus sent me an Advocate, who is leading me into Spirit and Truth! Whether or not baptism is how the blood of Christ is applied, is open for debate,and those who die in their sin, never believed that Jesus is truly the Son of God, and that He washes away their sins with His life giving blood! Acts 8:37 is in response to those who say that baptism forgives and washes your sin away. First you must have faith and believe, then you get baptized!

 

[Javl]

Calm down, my brother in Christ Which sins did Christ take upon Himself? I am trying to show that ALL sin was forgiven on the Cross! We should flee from sin, this is true, but being covered by the blood, and being accepted and forgiven, gives us hope that we can fight bck against sin! Perhaps, banished was a poor choice of words!

OK, I understand what you mean ( meant ), and I do agree.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1beleevr
KJV says in Colossians 1:14, that it is the blood of Christ which removes our sins!

I agree and that is accomplished through Baptism!

You say that you agree that the blood of Christ removes sin and then you say that that is accomplished through baptism. rinnie this last statement of yours is just not true it was accomplished by Jesus on the cross. Don’t you see what you are doing, You insist on substituting the acts of man for the saving sacrifice of Christ. Take another look at these vs. They tell an irrefutable story of the love of Christ and the **faith **it takes to be justified before God.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But I do not see where it states that in order for the blood of Christ to remove our sins we must be a certain age!

rinnie take a look at Romans 10:9,10 above and ask yourself if an infant is capable of doing what it requires.

 

[adrift]

Well this thread is way over 1000 so I can feel the ax coming down

Jesus obtained for us the forgiveness of sin and the restorationf o communion with God the remission of the eteranl punishment of sin BUT the temporal punishment remains.
Jesus said to the Apostles “whos sins your forgive will be forgiven” If all sins had been forgiven on the cross, why did Jesus say this to the apostles?
The Scripture that state that all sins will be forgiven accept against the Holy Spirirt in this world and the world to come.
Which begs the questin what sins will be forgiven in the world to come?

Jesus said that the last pence had to be paid.

Who pays that pence?

Jesus said that we had to be perfect to enter heaven.

How many are perfect when they die?

What about the Scriptures that state that Baptism forgive sins?
What about the Scriptures that say that Baptism is sharing in the cross?
Faith is necessary. The faith of a parent suffices just as it sufficed for Jewish parents for circumcition.

There is no conflict between Jesus offering His Blood Sacrifice and baptism. Jesuis commanded Baptism. Baptism forgives sins because it is our way of dying with Him. You can quote all the scripture of Faith but it does not detract, but enhances the truth that Baptism saves. The Scriptures say that.

 

[adrift]

1 Peter 3:
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Well this thread is way over 1000 so I can feel the ax coming down

Jesus obtained for us the forgiveness of sin and the restorationf o communion with God the remission of the eteranl punishment of sin BUT the temporal punishment remains.

Heb.10:16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
If we have to go threw some kind of purging fire, that’s not remembering our sins no more.

Jesus said to the Apostles “whos sins your forgive will be forgiven” If all sins had been forgiven on the cross, why did Jesus say this to the apostles?

Jn.20:23. Whose soever sins. Jesus here speaks to the disciples as representatives of His church on earth, to which, acting in its corporate capacity, He has entrusted the responsibility of caring for the spiritual interests and needs of its individual members. Jesus had already explained to them at length how to deal with erring members, first personally (see on Matt. 18:1-15, 21–35), and then with the authority of the church (see on vs. 16–20). Now He reiterates the counsel given upon that former occasion.
The church is to work faithfully for the restoration of its erring members, encouraging them to repent and turn from their evil ways. When there is evidence that things have been made right with God and man, the church is to accept the repentance as genuine, to release the erring one from the charges brought against him (to “remit” his “sins”), and to receive him back into full fellowship. Such a remitting of sins is ratified in heaven; in fact, God has already accepted and pardoned the repentant one (see on Luke 15:1–7). The Scriptures explicitly teach, however, that confession of sin and repentance for it are to be made directly to the throne of grace in heaven (see Acts 20:21; 1 John 1:9), and that the release of the soul from sin comes only through the merits of Christ and His personal mediation (1 John 2:1). This prerogative God has never delegated to erring mortals, themselves so often in need of divine mercy and grace, even though they be the appointed leaders of the church. See DA 805, 806; see on Matt. 16:19.
They are retained. When evidence of genuine repentance is lacking, the charges brought against an erring member are to be “retained.” Heaven will recognize the decision of the church, for no man can be right with God when he is willfully at odds with his fellow men. He who despises the counsel of God’s appointed representatives on earth cannot expect to enjoy God’s favor. For an illustration of the operation of this principle in the early church see Acts 5:1–11.
Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 5. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 1067
The Scripture that state that all sins will be forgiven accept against the Holy Spirirt in this world and the world to come.
Which begs the questin what sins will be forgiven in the world to come?

Jesus said that the last pence had to be paid.
Who pays that pence?

If we have to pay anything, we have to pay it all.
Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus said that we had to be perfect to enter heaven.
How many are perfect when they die?

All who have been sanctified in Christ.
Heb10:10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

What about the Scriptures that state that Baptism forgive sins?

Acts2:38. Repent. For a discussion of the import of this word see on Matt. 3:2; 4:17. This is the message that Christ commanded to be preached (Luke 24:47).
Be baptized. See on Matt. 3:6; Mark 16:16. This was to be an integral part of the apostles’ ministry (Matt. 28:19).
Every one. Peter allows no exemption from baptism. Although it is not a saving act, it is the outward sign of the death of the old life and the beginning of the new, and is required of all.

What about the Scriptures that say that Baptism is sharing in the cross?

What about them?

Faith is necessary. The faith of a parent suffices just as it sufficed for Jewish parents for circumcition.

Circumcision was a means of identifying one as a member of God’s chosen people in the flesh and required no profession of faith.

There is no conflict between Jesus offering His Blood Sacrifice and baptism.

This is true.

Jesuis commanded Baptism.

This is also true.

Baptism forgives sins because it is our way of dying with Him.

Baptism forgives nothing. It is our way of showing that we accept His death in place of ours.

You can quote all the scripture of Faith but it does not detract, but enhances the truth that Baptism saves. The Scriptures say that.

No it doesn’t.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[adrift]

If we have to go threw some kind of purging fire, that’s not remembering our sins no more.

This is not a true statement. It is the purging that allows for the sin not to be remembered. I may stop a sin but I may still have the inclination to that sin. It is that inclination that is purged. Perhaps on the day of your death you are unkind to someone. Perhaps you are driving and you toss a sign you shouldn’t and in the next instant you crash and die. You haven’t had time to repent. Do you go to hell? How are you made perfect?

 

[adrift]

This prerogative God has never delegated to erring mortals

John 20

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
24

I think you did a lot of zig zagging to deny that God did in deed delegate the forgiveness of sins. Jesus breathed on them not insignificant.

he Scripture that state that all sins will be forgiven accept against the Holy Spirirt in this world and the world to come.
Which begs the questin what sins will be forgiven in the world to come?

You did not answer this.

If we have to pay anything, we have to pay it all.

I don’t know what you mean by this. You have not explained what Jesus meant.

 

[adrift]

Although it is not a saving act, it is the outward sign of the death of the old life and the beginning of the new, and is required of all.

Peter disagrees with you

1 Peter 3:
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism,which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Dominic_Korozya]

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Stated by Peter in Acts…

The New Testament books speak of a cleansing fire. This is why the Catholic Church firmly believes in the existance of purgatory.

 

[rinnie]

So, in saying that, you are in essence saying that infnts are aware of their sins, and of age to understand baptism and salvation? The blood of Christ washes away sin; baptism seals salvation!

Not at all. It is you my friend who continues to say that. But not me, and not the bible and not Catholic teaching. But here is what Catholic teaching is.

The bible state clearly that in order to be saved you must be born again.

John 3:3-8 Jesus says one must be born again of the water and the spriit. After Jesus talks to Nicodmus what does the bible say Jesus did? He and his disciples went into the land and baptized. So it is through Baptism that one is born again no by accepting Jesus in your heart, at least not according to the bible.

Now being Catholics we know that Salvation is an on going process. It is only the beginning of salvation. There are other things that must happen through ones life.

Rom. One must have faith
Matt one must forgive others to be forgiven
Matt one must keep the commandments
John One must take the Eucharist
John one must labor for the food which one endures to eternal life
Rom One must sek for glory and for honor and immortality
James one must do good works. and on and on and on.

So there is no way that Baptism is the only thing necessary for Salvation. It is the start of a life long process.

I have told you a least a thousand times that Baptism is what wipes away original sin once and or all, but you refuse to accept this teaching. Baptism is what seals our hearts with Christ and enters into our hearts and soul the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. THen the Holy Spirit can begin to work in us, to give us the Grace from God to even attempt Salvation.

I never said Baptism seals Salvation. I said Baptism saves you. Salvation is a process that BEGINS with Baptism not ENDS with it.

Now can you show me where in the bible that it is said that this process must all happen at Baptism? Because if you are correct then one should not be Baptised until ones death right? Because I cannot see how one can keep all the commandments, do the will of God, do good works and have all of these things completed at the time of Baptism the way you are seeing it? And I see no scriptures that in no way saying what you are trying so hard to make them say?

 

[rinnie]

The New Testament books speak of a cleansing fire. This is why the Catholic Church firmly believes in the existance of purgatory.

Correct and why would anyone need a cleansing fire if they were not being cleansed to enter heaven I am sure one would not need to be made clean to enter hell

 

[rinnie]

Peter disagrees with you

1 Peter 3:
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism,which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

You got it adrift. We must be saved through Baptism and Baptism does indeed save. We are Catholic and we believe all of the scripture. We are saved through the water Amen to that. But that is only ONE of the many things we must have done as Christians to enter the kingdom of God. That is what our protestatant brothers and sisters do not understand. Salvation is a process. LIke St Paul said we work it out with fear and tremb.

 

[Dominic_Korozya]

Correct and why would anyone need a cleansing fire if they were not being cleansed to enter heaven I am sure one would not need to be made clean to enter hell

I can’t argue with that!

 

[Bill_Pick]

Well this thread is way over 1000 so I can feel the ax coming down

Jesus obtained for us the forgiveness of sin and the restorationf o communion with God the remission of the eteranl punishment of sin BUT the temporal punishment remains.
Jesus said to the Apostles “whos sins your forgive will be forgiven” If all sins had been forgiven on the cross, why did Jesus say this to the apostles?
The Scripture that state that all sins will be forgiven accept against the Holy Spirirt in this world and the world to come.
Which begs the questin what sins will be forgiven in the world to come?

Jesus said that the last pence had to be paid.

Who pays that pence?

Jesus said that we had to be perfect to enter heaven.

How many are perfect when they die?

What about the Scriptures that state that Baptism forgive sins?
What about the Scriptures that say that Baptism is sharing in the cross?
Faith is necessary. The faith of a parent suffices just as it sufficed for Jewish parents for circumcition.

There is no conflict between Jesus offering His Blood Sacrifice and baptism. Jesuis commanded Baptism. Baptism forgives sins because it is our way of dying with Him. You can quote all the scripture of Faith but it does not detract, but enhances the truth that Baptism saves. The Scriptures say that.

A very good post but you have some here that will just not believe any thing you say even with Bible verses