Purgatory......

[Truth_Seeker123]

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Stated by Peter in Acts…

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Stated by Peter in Acts…

Orthodox Christianity does pray for the dead, but have never taught a doctrine of Prugatory. You may be interested to read Andrew Phillips’ posts.

 

[adstrinity]

Orthodox Christianity does pray for the dead, but have never taught a doctrine of Prugatory. You may be interested to read Andrew Phillips’ posts.

We, you and I, will not agree on this SingleMomMonica, but, we can all agree what was stated in the OP, this all WAS in fact stated by St. Peter in Acts.

 

[JRKH]

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Stated by Peter in Acts…

And your Point is…?

 

[Byzman]

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Stated by Peter in Acts…

Doesn’t sound like Purgatory to me!..but hey, what do I know, I’m just a Catholic.

 

[Byzman]

And your Point is…?

Drum roll…please!

 

[Third_Day]

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Stated by Peter in Acts…

The early Church clearly believed in purgatory. In 1 Cor 15:29 it says this " Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead. If the dead are not raised at all, whay are people baptized on their behalf?"

This clearly shows a practice of doing something for the dead. If they only believed in heaven and hell, this verse makes no sense. St, Paul does not say this is wrong. Clearly this practice was not continued in the early Church but it does show that doing something for the dead was considered a good thing.
Praying for the dead was also a practice and we see St. Paul himself prays for his friend Onesiphorus in 2 Tim 1:16-18 “may the Lord grant to find mercy from the Lord on that Day”. If Onesiphorus is still alive, this verse makes no sense.

1 Cor 3:15 tells us we will be saved but only “as through fire”. A clear reference to purgatory.

 

[Teneas]

I hope to gain a better understanding of Purgatory through this thread. I believe in it of course, as well as the scripture that points to it. It has been a subject I have found hard to grasp at times, but I know full well my limited human mind can’t grasp all that God has or desires for us.

I hope this remains civil.

 

[fermat]

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Stated by Peter in Acts…

I smells a troll!

TS123, how many more pointless discussions are you going to start here. If you are really serious about this, post back with these two things:

What you think the Catholic church teaches about Purgatory
And
Your source for what you think the Catholic church teaches about Purgatory.

If you do that, I promise we can give the information you so sorely need.

 

[schaick]

Sounds like more of an event then place:

1 Corinthians 3
15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

There is simply sleep for all before Judgement Day. To us this sleep might seem like something occuring immediately:
Luke 23
42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Doesn’t really point to a place of purgatory, but simply ressurection-
1 Corinthians 15
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Do Catholics believe in ghosts? Are these the people in purgatory?

 

[Third_Day]

I hope to gain a better understanding of Purgatory through this thread. I believe in it of course, as well as the scripture that points to it. It has been a subject I have found hard to grasp at times, but I know full well my limited human mind can’t grasp all that God has or desires for us.

I hope this remains civil.

Purgatory is a great gift from a merciful God. God desires that all men be saved. For that purpose He gave us His only Son to be sacrificed. For that prupose He gave us His Church so that we would no longer be “children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men” (Eph 4:11-15)
For that purpose He gave us the sacraments as a means of grace and for that purpose He gave us a final place for our purification, purgatory. It is here that Christ’s sacrifice is applied to us so that we may be completely sanctified so that we may “be perfect” and enter into heaven.

 

[Corki]

I smells a troll!

TS123, how many more pointless discussions are you going to start here. If you are really serious about this, post back with these two things:

What you think the Catholic church teaches about Purgatory
And
Your source for what you think the Catholic church teaches about Purgatory.

If you do that, I promise we can give the information you so sorely need.

Naw, he’s not a troll. This is his usualy MO. He posts scripture without context or a clear point, let’s people wonder for a while and then comes back and tells us what he really wants to discuss. Just be patient.

 

[Teneas]

Purgatory is a great gift from a merciful God. God desires that all men be saved. For that purpose He gave us His only Son to be sacrificed. For that prupose He gave us His Church so that we would no longer be “children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men” (Eph 4:11-15)
For that purpose He gave us the sacraments as a means of grace and for that purpose He gave us a final place for our purification, purgatory. It is here that Christ’s sacrifice is applied to us so that we may be completely sanctified so that we may “be perfect” and enter into heaven.

Ooo I like how you said that.

 

[Third_Day]

=schaick;6176001]Sounds like more of an event then place:

1 Corinthians 3
15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

It is an event, a final event that take place outside of heaven. Notice it says “he will suffer loss” and he “will be saved” and it will be “as through fire”. An excellent description of a cleansing fire.

There is simply sleep for all before Judgement Day. To us this sleep might seem like something occuring immediately

:
That;s not what the word of God says " And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment"
Luke 23

42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Doesn’t really point to a place of purgatory, but simply ressurection-

Heaven was not opened until Christ ascended into heaven 40 days after the resurrection.

Eph 4:8"when he ascended on high he led a host of captives"

The thief on the cross went to the abode of the dead with the "spirits in prison ( 1 Peter 3:19)

1 Corinthians 15
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Do Catholics believe in ghosts? Are these the people in purgatory?

THis quote simply shows that early christians believed in a place between heaven and hell. This “place” we now call purgatory which means a place of purification

 

[JonNC]

Purgatory is a great gift from a merciful God. God desires that all men be saved. For that purpose He gave us His only Son to be sacrificed. For that prupose He gave us His Church so that we would no longer be “children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men” (Eph 4:11-15)
For that purpose He gave us the sacraments as a means of grace and for that purpose He gave us a final place for our purification, purgatory. It is here that Christ’s sacrifice is applied to us so that we may be completely sanctified so that we may “be perfect” and enter into heaven.

usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml

Father Tavard showed how purgatory has been understood by Catholics as both a place of punishment and a state of cleansing, perhaps even momentary, at the time of death. Among the mystics, the latter image has greater prominence inasmuch as final purgation means an encounter with the “fire” of divine love which removes the effects of sin on the human person.

The issue, at least for me as a Lutheran, is not that there might be a moment of cleansing to enter Heaven, but that this cleansing can be affected by indulgences, or a “treasury of merits”.

Jon

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

An Eastern Orthodox perspective.

Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholics Church, innovated and redefined since the Ancient New Testament Church declared upon it. it was not the same teaching which prevailed in the Church, pre-schism in 1054 - and arguably, for another 500 years thereafter.

The EO continue to teach the ancient Church understanding that there are many abodes of Heaven and Hell. There is not intermediate or third place called Purgatory.

We continue to teach that the soul itself is not changed by any merit of it’s own, but is positively assisted by the actions of the living in petition to God and His perfect, Omnipotent and Omniscient Mercy. Judgement may alter, but NOT the soul after death.

We EO believe that God’s Judgement of the Soul may indeed change - by His Mercy and Grace alone. We do not accept that the souls “purging” or purification" objectively leads to forgiveness and entry into Heaven’s abode, where the full presence around the Throne of the Most High is.

We believe that Souls in the various “abodes” are asleep, or aware of certain things like the presence of God - interpreted by them as ‘comfort’ or as ‘torment’, depending upon their soul state at Death. We believe that they may also perceive, and be comforted by the entreaties to God for Mercy which are offered by the living. We believe God may also be moved by the entreaties of the Living Earthly Church.

But the RC teaching on Purgatory is not accepted because it is seen by the EOC as an dis-incentive for the faithful to properly repent and work towards salvation during their biological life on Earth.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

An Eastern Orthodox perspective.

Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholics Church, innovated and redefined since the Ancient New Testament Church declared upon it. it was not the same teaching which prevailed in the Church, pre-schism in 1054 - and arguably, for another 500 years thereafter.

The EO continue to teach the ancient Church understanding that there are many abodes of Heaven and Hell. There is not intermediate or third place called Purgatory.

We continue to teach that the soul itself is not changed by any merit of it’s own, but is positively assisted by the actions of the living in petition to God and His perfect, Omnipotent and Omniscient Mercy. Judgement may alter, but NOT the soul after death.

We EO believe that God’s Judgement of the Soul may indeed change - by His Mercy and Grace alone. We do not accept that the souls “purging” or purification" objectively leads to forgiveness and entry into Heaven’s abode, where the full presence around the Throne of the Most High is.

We believe that Souls in the various “abodes” are asleep, or aware of certain things like the presence of God - interpreted by them as ‘comfort’ or as ‘torment’, depending upon their soul state at Death. We believe that they may also perceive, and be comforted by the entreaties to God for Mercy which are offered by the living. We believe God may also be moved by the entreaties of the Living Earthly Church.

But the RC teaching on Purgatory is not accepted because it is seen by the EOC as an dis-incentive for the faithful to properly repent and work towards salvation during their biological life on Earth.

On your last paragraph - I’d have thought whether Purgatory exists would lie in the realm of truth or error. Either it exists or it doesn’t. Whether some might think teaching about it is a dis-incentive is irrelevant.

Secondly are Orthodox Christians more holy than Catholics on a pro-rata basis? If not, then what practical difference to holiness does the teaching of Purgatory make?

 

[Daedelus76]

This clearly shows a practice of doing something for the dead. If they only believed in heaven and hell, this verse makes no sense.

Heaven and Hell are not places in the usual sense, at least that’s what the Orthodox would tend to say, and many modern Western theologians. In fact alot of the western medieval images of Hell take things way beyond what the early church believed, there’s no need to rigidly define the geography of those places, and alot of that imagery comes from Paganism moreso (eternal conscious torment was part of Greek religion, too, long before Christianity). Thus, praying for the dead doesn’t necessarily imply a place called “Purgatory” at all.

Personally, as somebody who is Anglican/Epsicopalian/Mere Christian right now, I just think the distinction between the Orthodox/Eastern belief and purgatory is irrelevent. Praying for the dead is pious and isn’t incompatible with Christianity except for a few Protestant cranks.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

We EO teach that the RC concept of Purgatory, and it’s purpose, what happens there and it’s very existence as a distinct and “third place” is in error.

The Eastern Orthodox fervently pray for the dead, only to ask God for His Divine and Omnipotent Mercy in judgement of departed souls in the Final Judgement upon the second coming of Our Lord.

This teaching, is much misunderstood by both Roman Catholics and Protestants.

 

[JRKH]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

An Eastern Orthodox perspective.

Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholics Church, innovated and redefined since the Ancient New Testament Church declared upon it. it was not the same teaching which prevailed in the Church, pre-schism in 1054 - and arguably, for another 500 years thereafter.

The EO continue to teach the ancient Church understanding that there are many abodes of Heaven and Hell. There is not intermediate or third place called Purgatory.

We continue to teach that the soul itself is not changed by any merit of it’s own, but is positively assisted by the actions of the living in petition to God and His perfect, Omnipotent and Omniscient Mercy. Judgement may alter, but NOT the soul after death.

We EO believe that God’s Judgement of the Soul may indeed change - by His Mercy and Grace alone. We do not accept that the souls “purging” or purification" objectively leads to forgiveness and entry into Heaven’s abode, where the full presence around the Throne of the Most High is.

We believe that Souls in the various “abodes” are asleep, or aware of certain things like the presence of God - interpreted by them as ‘comfort’ or as ‘torment’, depending upon their soul state at Death. We believe that they may also perceive, and be comforted by the entreaties to God for Mercy which are offered by the living. We believe God may also be moved by the entreaties of the Living Earthly Church.

But the RC teaching on Purgatory is not accepted because it is seen by the EOC as an dis-incentive for the faithful to properly repent and work towards salvation during their biological life on Earth.

I tend to agree with your last statement here that the doctrine of Purgatory, while offering comfort to those not perfected in Love, can have the unintended effect of causing a lax attitude in some people. This is unfortunate for as Fr John Corapi would say, “If you aim for Heaven and miss there is always purgatory. If you aim for purgatory and miss, there is no other stop before hell.”

As for the rest, thank you for reenforcing the ancient teaching of the doctrine of purgatory. This clearly demonstrates that ancient and united Church did hold with and teach the doctrine of purgatory and it was not some later invention.
It seems that the differences in understandings is something else that our theologens will have to work on as the Roman and EO churches work toward reunification.

Peace
James