Purgatory......

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Here is something to consider.

In the RCC we believe the O.T. has to tie into the N.T.

Now Jesus tells us about Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31.

Now lets start here. Lets talk about Lazarus. Where is he? The RCC talks about a middle place between heaven and earth. Now we call that middle place purgatory.

Now was Lazarus without original sin? Can you get into heaven without Jesus? No. According the O.T we could not get in without a savior. Jesus. But Jesus freed us from Original SIn by his death and ress. Now back to the Point, Jesus opened up Heaven. Where was Lazarus and Abraham? They were not in hell! They were not in heaven. Were they not in a middle place???
 
rinnie said:
Here is something to consider.

In the RCC we believe the O.T. has to tie into the N.T.

Now Jesus tells us about Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31.

Now lets start here. Lets talk about Lazarus. Where is he? The RCC talks about a middle place between heaven and earth. Now we call that middle place purgatory.

Now was Lazarus without original sin? Can you get into heaven without Jesus? No. According the O.T we could not get in without a savior. Jesus. But Jesus freed us from Original SIn by his death and ress. Now back to the Point, Jesus opened up Heaven. Where was Lazarus and Abraham? They were not in hell! They were not in heaven. Were they not in a middle place???
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They were in Hades, in Abraham’s Bosom, not Purgatory.

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
 
Purgatory is God’s mercy, not His vengeance. Thank God for Purgatory.
 
TheosisM said:
They were in Hades, in Abraham’s Bosom, not Purgatory.

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
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My point is this. Was there not indeed a MIDDLE Place. NOT heaven, NOT hell?
 
rinnie said:
My point is this. Was there not indeed a MIDDLE Place. NOT heaven, NOT hell?
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Of course, however in your previous post you were equating the “middle place” of Lazarus with Purgatory, which is incorrect, and the Catechism identifies the place of Lazarus as “Abraham’s Bosom” (“Limbo of the Patriarchs”), part of Hades/Sheol, which is *not *Purgatory.
 
TheosisM said:
They were in Hades, in Abraham’s Bosom, not Purgatory.

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
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Hell is eternal separation from God.

In SS Judas Maccabeus made atonement for the dead that they may be delivered from their sin. Jobs sons were purified by their fathers sacrifice.

The scripture speaks of the Cleansing fire. Now this cleansing fire is for those who have been been accepted by God and judged for heaven, but need to be purified by the cleansing fire. That is not done here, and it is not done in heaven. where do you claim these cleansing fires happen.

It cannot be hell, for hell is total separation from God. ANd it cannot be heaven because you must be completely cleansed to be there. Where does the final cleansing take place in your opinion? What do you do with that scripture?
 
rinnie said:
Hell is eternal separation from God.

In SS Judas Maccabeus made atonement for the dead that they may be delivered from their sin. Jobs sons were purified by their fathers sacrifice.

The scripture speaks of the Cleansing fire. Now this cleansing fire is for those who have been been accepted by God and judged for heaven, but need to be purified by the cleansing fire. That is not done here, and it is not done in heaven. where do you claim these cleansing fires happen.

It cannot be hell, for hell is total separation from God. ANd it cannot be heaven because you must be completely cleansed to be there. Where does the final cleansing take place in your opinion? What do you do with that scripture?
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But if it is Purgatory, the sins will already be forgiven because no matter what, if you are in Purgatory you will eventually reach heaven.

Is there is an abode of the dead, regarding which we can pray, than it can only be a kind of Limbo, not a Purgatory.
 
rinnie said:
Nope, Limbo is not a official doctrine of the CC. Purgatory is Church dogma.
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That’s not what I said.

I said that Abraham’s Boson sounds more like Limbo than Purgatory. I never suggested that it was dogma. Indeed, didn’t Benedict XVI recently just jettison definitely the concept of Limbo for unbaptized infants?
 
rinnie said:
Hell is eternal separation from God.

In SS Judas Maccabeus made atonement for the dead that they may be delivered from their sin. Jobs sons were purified by their fathers sacrifice.

The scripture speaks of the Cleansing fire. Now this cleansing fire is for those who have been been accepted by God and judged for heaven, but need to be purified by the cleansing fire. That is not done here, and it is not done in heaven. where do you claim these cleansing fires happen.

It cannot be hell, for hell is total separation from God. ANd it cannot be heaven because you must be completely cleansed to be there. Where does the final cleansing take place in your opinion? What do you do with that scripture?
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My quoted post has nothing to do with what you just said.

In post #121 you mentioned Lazarus, asking “where is he?”, then said that there is a middle place, called Purgatory, therefore implying that you believe that Lazarus is in Purgatory. You then said that Lazarus and Abraham were not in Hell or Heaven, but in “a middle place”, furthering the implication that they are in Purgatory.

The fact is that this is incorrect, if only for the fact that the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraph 633, states that they were in “Hades” (Greek)/“Sheol” (Hebrew), specifically in “Abraham’s Bosom”, which is also called the “Limbo of the Patriarchs” or “Paradise”. This is not Purgatory, and even if one accepts that Purgatory exists, it is seen as a separate abode from Abraham’s Bosom.

When the Apostles’ Creed states that Jesus Christ “descended into Hell” (which is what paragraph 633 of the Catechism is specifically referring to), it is talking about Hades/Sheol, not Purgatory.
 
rinnie said:
Nope, Limbo is not a official doctrine of the CC. Purgatory is Church dogma.
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We’re not talking about “Limbo of Infants”, which is speculation. We’re talking about Abraham’s Bosom, which is also called the Limbo of the Patriarchs/Fathers. These are two different “limbos”. The Apostles’ Creed specifically refers to it when it states that Jesus “descended into Hell”.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
That’s not what I said.

I said that Abraham’s Boson sounds more like Limbo than Purgatory. I never suggested that it was dogma. Indeed, didn’t Benedict XVI recently just jettison definitely the concept of Limbo for unbaptized infants?
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Yes, however the Limbo of Infants is a completely separate place/concept than the Limbo of the Patriarchs/Abraham’s Bosom, which is right in the Bible.
 
TheosisM said:
My quoted post has nothing to do with what you just said.

In post #121 you mentioned Lazarus, asking “where is he?”, then said that there is a middle place, called Purgatory, therefore implying that you believe that Lazarus is in Purgatory. You then said that Lazarus and Abraham were not in Hell or Heaven, but in “a middle place”, furthering the implication that they are in Purgatory.

The fact is that this is incorrect, if only for the fact that the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraph 633, states that they were in “Hades” (Greek)/“Sheol” (Hebrew), specifically in “Abraham’s Bosom”, which is also called the “Limbo of the Patriarchs” or “Paradise”. This is not Purgatory, and even if one accepts that Purgatory exists, it is seen as a separate abode from Abraham’s Bosom.

When the Apostles’ Creed states that Jesus Christ “descended into Hell” (which is what paragraph 633 of the Catechism is specifically referring to), it is talking about Hades/Sheol, not Purgatory.
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Sure it does because there were different levels of Hades. The Poor man was in the bosom of Abraham, The rich man was raised his eyes and saw Abraham FAR OFF.

And I agree with you it is separate from Abrahams Bosom. I never said they were in the same place. Actually you are making my point.

Now there is my proof there is a middle place, different level. Etc.

Now back to the point where does the Cleansing fires happen. Do you not agree that you are not cleansed in hell, its the point of no return.

And you cannot reach heaven uncleansed? so where are the cleansing fires?
 
TheosisM said:
Yes, however the Limbo of Infants is a completely separate place/concept than the Limbo of the Patriarchs/Abraham’s Bosom, which is right in the Bible.
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No limbo of infants does not exist. It is not official teaching of the Church.
 
TheosisM said:
We’re not talking about “Limbo of Infants”, which is speculation. We’re talking about Abraham’s Bosom, which is also called the Limbo of the Patriarchs/Fathers. These are two different “limbos”. The Apostles’ Creed specifically refers to it when it states that Jesus “descended into Hell”.
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agreed
limbo existed in the old testament and Jesus entered limbo after his death on the cross to free the righteous dead, preach the Good News to them, and lead them to heaven

i think whats not clear is whether limbo existed after the resurrection of Jesus. because the death and resurrection of Jesus essentially made limbo useless, because the righteous can now enter heaven
 
choy said:
agreed
limbo existed in the old testament and Jesus entered limbo after his death on the cross to free the righteous dead, preach the Good News to them, and lead them to heaven

i think whats not clear is whether limbo existed after the resurrection of Jesus. because the death and resurrection of Jesus essentially made limbo useless, because the righteous can now enter heaven
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BUt Choy I was told limbo was never a official teaching of the CC? The CC acknowledges Purgatory thought. But my point was there was a middle place between heaven and hell.

I thought the Official Church teaching was being with Abraham was paradise?
 
rinnie said:
Sure it does because there were different levels of Hades. The Poor man was in the bosom of Abraham, The rich man was raised his eyes and saw Abraham FAR OFF.

And I agree with you it is separate from Abrahams Bosom. I never said they were in the same place. Actually you are making my point.

Now there is my proof there is a middle place, different level. Etc.

Now back to the point where does the Cleansing fires happen. Do you not agree that you are not cleansed in hell, its the point of no return.

And you cannot reach heaven uncleansed? so where are the cleansing fires?
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All I am trying to say is that it is incorrect to believe that Lazarus and Abraham were in Purgatory, since the were not. Nor was the rich man in Purgatory. You did not explicitly say that Purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom were the same place, but you did imply that in your post about Lazarus being in a middle place that the Catholic Church refers to as “Purgatory”, in post 121. I was correcting that implication. That’s all.
 
rinnie said:
No limbo of infants does not exist. It is not official teaching of the Church.
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I know, I never said that the Limbo of Infants exists. I explicitly said that it was speculation. The Limbo of Fathers, a completely separate concept and abode, does/did exist, is right in the Bible (i.e. “Abraham’s Bosom”), and is referred to in the Catechism. This has nothing to do with the Limbo of Infants.
 
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