Purgatory......

[TheosisM]

agreed
limbo existed in the old testament and Jesus entered limbo after his death on the cross to free the righteous dead, preach the Good News to them, and lead them to heaven

i think whats not clear is whether limbo existed after the resurrection of Jesus. because the death and resurrection of Jesus essentially made limbo useless, because the righteous can now enter heaven

I agree. It seems to me that the Catholic Church believes the the Limbo of the Patriarchs was done away with after Jesus went there after His death. Now, one’s destination after death is either Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (then Heaven).

 

[TheosisM]

BUt Choy I was told limbo was never a official teaching of the CC? The CC acknowledges Purgatory thought. But my point was there was a middle place between heaven and hell.

I thought the Official Church teaching was being with Abraham was paradise?

The official Church teaching (right in the Catechism) is that Abraham was in Abraham’s Bosom, which is also referred to as the Limbo of the Patriarchs/Fathers, or Paradise by some. This Limbo has nothing to do with the Limbo of the Infants, which was never an official teaching. When people say that Limbo is speculation, they are referring to the Limbo of Infants, not the Limbo of the Patriarchs/Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[rinnie]

All I am trying to say is that it is incorrect to believe that Lazarus and Abraham were in Purgatory, since the were not. Nor was the rich man in Purgatory. You did not explicitly say that Purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom were the same place, but you did imply that in your post about Lazarus being in a middle place that the Catholic Church refers to as “Purgatory”, in post 121. I was correcting that implication. That’s all.

BUt are you or not acknowledging there is a middle place? And how can you say that this middle place in not indeed purgatory. The middle place or level or whatever you want to call it existed and could still exist. Could it not?

Now that is my proof that a middle place does indeed exist. Now there is a final cleansing place. Where is that? Could that not indeed be the same place.

 

[TheosisM]

And just to tie everything I’ve said to Purgatory:

Both Purgatory and Hades (Abraham’s Bosom/Limbo of the Patriarchs are a part of Hades) are seen as “middle places”, however in different ways. Purgatory is a place of cleansing for those that will go to Heaven. The only destination for those in Purgatory is Heaven. In contrast, Hades had two parts, one of which was for the damned, and one for the saved (who were rescued by Jesus Christ). Lazarus and Abraham were both in the ‘saved’ part of Hades, which is referred to as 1)Abraham’s bosom; 2) Limbo of the Patriarchs or Fathers; 3) Paradise. The issue here is that the existence of one (Purgatory or Hades) does not prove the existence of the other. I was therefore confused as to why rinnie referred to where Lazarus and Abraham were (especially since it seemed that he/she implied that they were in Purgatory), since it is accepted by the Church that they were in Hades (in Abraham’s Bosom), and not Purgatory. Since the existence of one does not prove the existence of the other, it is odd to consider the “middle place” of Hades, when the purposes of Hades and Purgatory are also different.

 

[rinnie]

And just to tie everything I’ve said to Purgatory:

Both Purgatory and Hades (Abraham’s Bosom/Limbo of the Patriarchs are a part of Hades) are seen as “middle places”, however in different ways. Purgatory is a place of cleansing for those that will go to Heaven. The only destination for those in Purgatory is Heaven. In contrast, Hades had two parts, one of which was for the damned, and one for the saved (who were rescued by Jesus Christ). Lazarus and Abraham were both in the ‘saved’ part of Hades, which is referred to as 1)Abraham’s bosom; 2) Limbo of the Patriarchs or Fathers; 3) Paradise. The issue here is that the existence of one (Purgatory or Hades) does not prove the existence of the other. I was therefore confused as to why rinnie referred to where Lazarus and Abraham were (especially since it seemed that he/she implied that they were in Purgatory), since it is accepted by the Church that they were in Hades (in Abraham’s Bosom), and not Purgatory. Since the existence of one does not prove the existence of the other, it is odd to consider the “middle place” of Hades, when the purposes of Hades and Purgatory are also different.

Could you show me officical Church teaching. In Luke the Bosom of Abraham is a tempory State of souls awaiting the entrance into heaven. Could you show me where the CCC states that Purgatory is not a tempory state awaiting heaven.

 

[TheosisM]

BUt are you or not acknowledging there is a middle place? And how can you say that this middle place in not indeed purgatory. The middle place or level or whatever you want to call it existed and could still exist. Could it not?

Now that is my proof that a middle place does indeed exist. Now there is a final cleansing place. Where is that? Could that not indeed be the same place.

Rinnie, you are missing my point (which I attempted to address in my above post). I am not acknowledging anything except that the middle place of Hades has nothing to do with Purgatory. Abraham and Lazarus were in Hades (in Abraham’s Bosom), and not Purgatory, and they are two different concepts, and this was what I was correcting. That’s all. The existence of one does not imply the existence of the other.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

And just to tie everything I’ve said to Purgatory:

Both Purgatory and Hades (Abraham’s Bosom/Limbo of the Patriarchs are a part of Hades) are seen as “middle places”, however in different ways. [SIGN]Purgatory is a place of cleansing for those that will go to Heaven[/SIGN]. The only destination for those in Purgatory is Heaven. In contrast, Hades had two parts, one of which was for the damned, and one for the saved (who were rescued by Jesus Christ). Lazarus and Abraham were both in the ‘saved’ part of Hades, which is referred to as 1)Abraham’s bosom; 2) Limbo of the Patriarchs or Fathers; 3) Paradise. The issue here is that the existence of one (Purgatory or Hades) does not prove the existence of the other. I was therefore confused as to why rinnie referred to where Lazarus and Abraham were (especially since it seemed that he/she implied that they were in Purgatory), since it is accepted by the Church that they were in Hades (in Abraham’s Bosom), and not Purgatory. Since the existence of one does not prove the existence of the other, it is odd to consider the “middle place” of Hades, when the purposes of Hades and Purgatory are also different.

Could you show official Church document that they can not indeed be the same place.

 

[TheosisM]

Could you show me officical Church teaching. In Luke the Bosom of Abraham is a tempory State of souls awaiting the entrance into heaven. Could you show me where the CCC states that Purgatory is not a tempory state awaiting heaven.

Where did I say that Purgatory is not a temporary state awaiting Heaven? I stated in the post you quoted “The only destination for those in Purgatory is Heaven”.

No theologian equates Hades (or the Bosom of Abraham section) with Purgatory. In fact, medieval theologians readily listed them separately, since they are two separate places, for two different purposes.

 

[rinnie]

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Where did I say that Purgatory is not a temporary state awaiting Heaven? I stated in the post you quoted “The only destination for those in Purgatory is Heaven”.

No theologian equates Hades (or the Bosom of Abraham section) with Purgatory. In fact, medieval theologians readily listed them separately, since they [SIGN]are two separate places, for[/SIGN] two different purposes.

Actually how do you know that for sure. Thats my point. The Purpose actually is exactly the same. a place or a State awaitng entrance to heaven.

 

[TheosisM]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Could you show official Church document that they can not indeed be the same place.

This is very simple. What is the purpose of Purgatory, and what is the purpose of Hades/Bosom of Abraham?

Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Hades

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

This is all clear, and theologians agree with what I am saying. Purgatory is where one is cleansed before entrance to Heaven. In Latin theology, one is cleansed of temporal punishment, as well as venial sins, by some sort of fire. Hades was a “waiting place” for all of the dead, and was divided into the place of the unsaved and the place of the saved.

If you believe that Purgatory and Hades (or the Abraham’s Bosom part) are equivalent, please demonstrate that by either Biblical citations, ECF writings, or writings of other theologians. I have never seen them equated, because they exist for two different purposes. Can you show from official documents that they can be the same place? From the definitions given in the Catechism, it is clear that they are not.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

And just to tie everything I’ve said to Purgatory:

Both Purgatory and Hades (Abraham’s Bosom/Limbo of the Patriarchs are a part of Hades) are seen as “middle places”, however in different ways. Purgatory is a place of cleansing for those that will go to Heaven. The only destination for those in Purgatory is Heaven. In contrast, Hades had two parts, one of which was for the damned, [SIGN]and one for the saved[/SIGN] (who were rescued by Jesus Christ). Lazarus and Abraham were both in the ‘saved’ part of Hades, which is referred to as 1)Abraham’s bosom; 2) Limbo of the Patriarchs or Fathers; 3) Paradise. The issue here is that the existence of one (Purgatory or Hades) does not prove the existence of the other. I was therefore confused as to why rinnie referred to where Lazarus and Abraham were (especially since it seemed that he/she implied that they were in Purgatory), since it is accepted by the Church that they were in Hades (in Abraham’s Bosom), and not Purgatory. Since the existence of one does not prove the existence of the other, it is odd to consider the “middle place” of Hades, when the purposes of Hades and Purgatory are also different.

THere you go. Thats my point. There was a place or state in the O.T and there is scripture to prove there is a State or Place in the N.T. A place or state for final cleansing before you get to heaven. My point is proof that a place or state does indeed exist.

 

[TheosisM]

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Actually how do you know that for sure. Thats my point. The Purpose actually is exactly the same. a place or a State awaitng entrance to heaven.

No they aren’t. Purgatory is not just a waiting place/state. It is a place of cleansing fire (which you repeatedly mentioned), and in Latin theology, one is cleansed of temporal punishment and venial sins.

Please demonstrate that theologians, the Bible, or the ECFs have equated Purgatory with Abraham’s Bosom. This is your speculation, whereas my view is consistent with the Catechism as well as writings of other theologians. Medieval Catholic theologians readily listed Purgatory and Hades/Abraham’s Bosom separately, since they are separate places.

Again, can you please back up your speculation that Abraham’s Bosom and Purgatory are the same by citing some sources?

 

[TheosisM]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

THere you go. Thats my point. There was a place or state in the O.T and there is scripture to prove there is a State or Place in the N.T. A place or state for final cleansing before you get to heaven. My point is proof that a place or state does indeed exist.

What? I said nothing about cleansing. Are you saying that the people in Abraham’s Bosom were being cleansed, and/or, if we accept the Latin theology, that they were being cleansed of temporal punishment? Again, please demonstrate this by citing theologians that agree with this odd view. I have never seen Purgatory equated with Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[TheosisM]

And just to make my point even more clear, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“Since the coming of Our Lord, “the Bosom of Abraham” gradually ceased to designate a place of imperfect happiness, and it has become synonymous with Heaven itself.”

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

Is there anywhere that I can read that the Bosom of Abraham has become synonymous with Purgatory?

 

[rinnie]

No they aren’t. Purgatory is not just a waiting place/state. It is a place of cleansing fire (which you repeatedly mentioned), and in Latin theology, one is cleansed of temporal punishment and venial sins.

Please demonstrate that theologians, the Bible, or the ECFs have equated Purgatory with Abraham’s Bosom. This is your speculation, whereas my view is consistent with the Catechism as well as writings of other theologians. Medieval Catholic theologians readily listed Purgatory and Hades/Abraham’s Bosom separately, since they are separate places.

Again, can you please back up your speculation that Abraham’s Bosom and Purgatory are the same by citing some sources?

That is the point that I am trying to get across. There was a waiting place. Purgatory is also a waiting place. It is proving that a State of Place does indeed exist. I am trying to show how a middle place does indeed exist,

How it existed in the O.T and how it exists now in the N.T. The only difference is in the O.T they had to await Christ. Now that Jesus has come there is a waiting place that can cleanse us from our sins. What I am showing is how in the NT a middle state exists just like the O.T.

WHat I am saying is that is proof that a middle place does indeed exist. It ties the N.T into theO.T. But you refuse to understand or see what I am saying.

Just like hell is total separation from God. Abrahams bosom was a waiting place for those gettting to see God.

Hell today is still total separation from God. Purgatory is still s waiting place for those getting to see God. I am showing how Purgatory and Abraham was still showing a middle place existed then and does now. But again you refuse to see how they tie in. Purgatory and Abrahams bosom still means waiting eternal entrance into heaven.

 

[TheosisM]

That is the point that I am trying to get across. There was a waiting place. Purgatory is also a waiting place. It is proving that a State of Place does indeed exist. I am trying to show how a middle place does indeed exist,

How it existed in the O.T and how it exists now in the N.T. The only difference is in the O.T they had to await Christ. Now that Jesus has come there is a waiting place that can cleanse us from our sins. What I am showing is how in the NT a middle state exists just like the O.T.

WHat I am saying is that is proof that a middle place does indeed exist. It ties the N.T into theO.T. But you refuse to understand or see what I am saying.

Just like hell is total separation from God. Abrahams bosom was a waiting place for those gettting to see God.

Hell today is still total separation from God. Purgatory is still s waiting place for those getting to see God. I am showing how Purgatory and Abraham was still showing a middle place existed then and does now. But again you refuse to see how they tie in. Purgatory and Abrahams bosom still means waiting eternal entrance into heaven.

Rinnie I have already responded to this. YES, Abraham’s Bosom was a waiting place. My point is that proof of one (Abraham’s Bosom) does not imply or lead to proof of the other (Purgatory). Then you started to equate Purgatory with Abraham’s Bosom since they are both some sort of waiting place (though Purgatory involves much more than waiting), and my other point was that I have never seen any theologian equate them. If you are trying to say that Purgatory is a “follow-up” or progression from Abraham’s bosom, you need to demonstrate writings from ECFs or theologians that support this. Otherwise, again, the existence of Abraham’s Bosom has nothing to do with whether Purgatory exists. Your attempted logic is “well there was a middle place then (Abraham’s Bosom), so there must be a middle place now (Purgatory)”, which doesn’t make any sense, and again, I would appreciate ECF or theological writings that support this logical progression.

And of course there’s the point that Purgatory is only for those that are not completely cleansed (of temporal punishment and venial sins in Latin theology) prior to entering Heaven, while there are some that bypass Purgatory and go directly to Heaven. In contrast, when Abraham’s Bosom existed, all the righteous went there, and none went directly to Heaven, and they remained there until Christ descended there after His death.

Trying to equate these two places simply because they are some sort of “middle place” shows a superficial understanding of the purposes of both destinations.

And you do realize that no Christian or Jew denies the existence of this “middle place” of Abraham’s Bosom (how could they when it’s right in the Bible?), so again, I’m confused at the logical progression from Abraham’s Bosom to Purgatory, especially when the purpose of each is different. And again, the existence of one does not imply or necessitate the existence of the other. Abraham’s Bosom is irrelevant to whether Purgatory exists.

 

[rinnie]

It is proof that a middle place existed in the O.T and proof that it exists in the N.T.

In the O.T those who were with Abraham were spirits of just Men that were not made Perfect yet by Christ.

In the N.T Purgatory is a place where Spirits of of the Just are made Perfect by the final cleansing. Again being made Perfect in Christ.

Both Places are waiting places of the Just who have not yet been perfected in Christ.

THere is a alot these 2 places have in common, you just refuse to see it.

I am trying to show how both places were tempory places for the Just awaiting Christ. That these places did and do indeed exist.

 

[TheosisM]

It is proof that a middle place existed in the O.T and proof that it exists in the N.T.

In the O.T those who were with Abraham were spirits of just Men that were not made Perfect yet by Christ.

In the N.T Purgatory is a place where Spirits of of the Just are made Perfect by the final cleansing. Again being made Perfect in Christ.

Both Places are waiting places of the Just who have not yet been perfected in Christ.

THere is a alot these 2 places have in common, you just refuse to see it.

I am trying to show how both places were tempory places for the Just awaiting Christ. That these places did and do indeed exist.

Again: the existence of one does not imply or necessitate the existence of the other. You’re using a leap of logic that just does not make sense, and have never seen before in my readings on both Purgatory and Hades.

The only commonality I see between the two places (going on accepted theological views of both places, and not personal speculation) is that they are some sort of waiting place. That’s all. You do realize that the Bosom of Abraham is also in the NT.

I’m still waiting for you to cite some sources as to your equating the Bosom of Abraham with Purgatory.

You’re trying to get people to accept Purgatory because Abraham’s Bosom existed, when that doesn’t make any sense at all, especially when all the righteous went to Abraham’s Bosom, in contrast to some going to Purgatory (and experiencing some sort of fire/punishment, which has/have never been equated with Abraham’s Bosom) and some going directly to Heaven.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Again: the existence of one does not imply or necessitate the existence of the other. You’re using a leap of logic that just does not make sense, and have never seen before in my readings on both Purgatory and Hades.

The only commonality I see between the two places (going on accepted theological views of both places, and not personal speculation) is that they are some sort of waiting place. That’s all. You do realize that the Bosom of Abraham is also in the NT.

I’m still waiting for you to cite some sources as to your equating the Bosom of Abraham with Purgatory.

You’re trying to get people to accept Purgatory because Abraham’s Bosom existed, when that doesn’t make any sense at all, especially when all the righteous went to Abraham’s Bosom, in contrast to [SIGN]some going to Purgatory ([/SIGN]and experiencing some sort of fire/punishment, which has/have never been equated with Abraham’s Bosom) and some going directly to Heaven.

Because Purgatory is also for the Righteous. I never said all had to go to purgatory. There would be no need for Purgatory because Jesus took away original sin.

But because of the state of Original Sin you could not escape the Bosom of Abraham for the righteous in the O.T.

 

[TheosisM]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Because Purgatory is also for the Righteous. I never said all had to go to purgatory. There would be no need for Purgatory because Jesus took away original sin.

But because of the state of Original Sin you could not escape the Bosom of Abraham for the righteous in the O.T.

I never said that you said that all had to go to purgatory (please stop reading things into what I say).

The point is that this is one of the many differences between Purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom: all the righteous went to Abraham’s Bosom, whereas some go to Purgatory and some go directly to Heaven.

The only similarity is that both are waiting places. And again: the existence of one does not imply or necessitate the existence of the other. Nor have I seen any evidence that Abraham’s Bosom was replaced with Purgatory (in fact, the Catholic Encyclopedia states that Abraham’s Bosom is now synonymous with Heaven, not Purgatory). If it does, then that needs to be demonstrated, preferably with those theological sources I am still waiting for.