Purgatory......

[TheosisM]

It in scripture Theo. When Jesus died he went to release the souls in the bosom of Abraham. He cleaned it out. The righteous were granted eternal life into heaven. Jesus opened it up and they rose. ALL the righteous were released.

Purgatory is the final cleansing made possible by the death of Jesus. Purgatory did not exist at the time because Jesus did not come yet. Purgatory replaced Abrahams Bosom with the final cleansing. It is now a waiting place or state that is still for the righteous. But now that Jesus cleaned out paradise there is not need for it. But there are still righteous that need that final cleansing and waiting. That Purgatory. But it still a final waiting place to be cleansed just like the bosom of Abraham. Just like the bosom of abraham if you make it to purgatory you are also righteous, you just need that final cleansing from sin. It was just original sin in the OT. But they still needed a final cleansing, By the death of inocent blood of Christ the were set free also.

This is your eisegesis of scripture. Which scripture states that Purgatory replaced Abraham’s Bosom? I’ve never heard this before, and would like some supporting documents from theologians and/or Church Fathers. I have no problem accepting a belief in Purgatory (in theory). The problem is that scripture never claims that Purgatory replaced Abraham’s Bosom, nor have I seen anyone ever make that claim before, and would like supporting references, including where it is specifically in scripture that Purgatory replaced Abraham’s Bosom.

Also, please demonstrate from scripture and/or ECF/theological sources that the Bosom of Abraham was a place of cleansing. I’m not looking for your opinion/speculation on these two issues. I am looking for support from the Church Fathers and/or other theologians.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

[SIGN]This is your eisegesis of scripture[/SIGN]. Which scripture states that Purgatory replaced Abraham’s Bosom? I’ve never heard this before, and would like some supporting documents from theologians and/or Church Fathers. I have no problem accepting a belief in Purgatory (in theory). The problem is that scripture never claims that Purgatory replaced Abraham’s Bosom, nor have I seen anyone ever make that claim before, and would like supporting references, including where it is specifically in scripture that Purgatory replaced Abraham’s Bosom.

Also, please demonstrate from scripture and/or ECF/theological sources that the Bosom of Abraham was a place of cleansing. I’m not looking for your opinion/speculation on these two issues. I am looking for support from the Church Fathers and/or other theologians.

And what part of it do you disagree with

 

[TheosisM]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

And what part of it do you disagree with

…I would appreciate the scriptures (book(s), chapter(s) and verse(s)) that state that Purgatory replaced Abraham’s Bosom as a waiting place (ignoring that Purgatory is a place of purgation), as well as ECF and/or theologian support for this belief. I have never heard this before, and would like to see the support for it. I would also like scriptural support, as well as support from ECFs and/or other non-ECF theologians that Abraham’s Bosom was a place of cleansing, as you asserted.

Otherwise, this is your own personal interpretation with no ECF or Catholic Church support.

 

[1beleevr]

The early Church clearly believed in purgatory. In 1 Cor 15:29 it says this " Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead. If the dead are not raised at all, whay are people baptized on their behalf?"

This clearly shows a practice of doing something for the dead. If they only believed in heaven and hell, this verse makes no sense. St, Paul does not say this is wrong. Clearly this practice was not continued in the early Church but it does show that doing something for the dead was considered a good thing.
Praying for the dead was also a practice and we see St. Paul himself prays for his friend Onesiphorus in 2 Tim 1:16-18 “may the Lord grant to find mercy from the Lord on that Day”. If Onesiphorus is still alive, this verse makes no sense.

1 Cor 3:15 tells us we will be saved but only “as through fire”. A clear reference to purgatory.

]

1Corinthians 3:13-15, is actually rather vague, and is only referred to as purgatory by catholics and perhaps eastern orthodox! It is a made up word, which is or is not true. What works are being tested by fire? If you picked up your cross and followed Christ every day, or for the most part served others in His name(Mark 10:45), will you have less to burn off? It says that we will be saved, but though as through fire!

 

[rinnie]

…I would appreciate the scriptures (book(s), chapter(s) and verse(s)) that state that Purgatory replaced Abraham’s Bosom as a waiting place (ignoring that Purgatory is a place of purgation), as well as ECF and/or theologian support for this belief. I have never heard this before, and would like to see the support for it. I would also like scriptural support, as well as support from ECFs and/or other non-ECF theologians that Abraham’s Bosom was a place of cleansing, as you asserted.

Otherwise, this is your own personal interpretation with no ECF or Catholic Church support.

:banghead::banghead: Please try to listen to what I am saying to you. In the O.T those souls that were in the bosom of Abraham even if they went through the purification state had to still linger there. That was my proof that there was indeed a intermediate State.

Now when Jesus went to the bosom of Abraham, In the time after the passion the souls that no longer needed the state of Purification got to go to heaven. They got to see the dvine nature in an immediate vision face to face. Even before the reunfication with their bodies and general judgement, they are and will be in heaven.

That is how I am saying O.T and the N.T tie in together.

Before Jesus died and opened up heaven these souls had to linger and wait for heaven to be open. This proves that they were not in heaven or hell. A middle place.

Now in the N.T this middle place still exists but it is different only in the sense that if the soul has been cleansed it goes right to heaven. BUt its the same in the sense if it has not been cleansed is being held in another place other then heaven or hell. ITs still a middle place. The big difference is once cleansed it no longer has to linger as in the O.T.

I do not know any clearer way to explain it. I am sorry I tried.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Purgatory is also a place to repay a debt not paid while on Earth, hence it can be a type of prison.

The Parable of the Debtors

  Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

  The servant fell on his knees before him. "Be patient with me," he begged, "and I will pay back everything." The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

  But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denari. He grabbed him and began to choke him. "Pay back what you owe me," he demanded.

  His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, "Be patient with me, and I will pay you back."

  But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

  Then the master called the servant in. "You wicked servant," he said. "I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?" In anger his master turned him over to the jailers until he should pay back all he owed.

  This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart. -- Matthew 18:23-35

A+

 

[TheosisM]

:banghead::banghead: Please try to listen to what I am saying to you. In the O.T those souls that were in the bosom of Abraham even if they went through the purification state had to still linger there. That was my proof that there was indeed a intermediate State.

Now when Jesus went to the bosom of Abraham, In the time after the passion the souls that no longer needed the state of Purification got to go to heaven. They got to see the dvine nature in an immediate vision face to face. Even before the reunfication with their bodies and general judgement, they are and will be in heaven.

That is how I am saying O.T and the N.T tie in together.

Before Jesus died and opened up heaven these souls had to linger and wait for heaven to be open. This proves that they were not in heaven or hell. A middle place.

Now in the N.T this middle place still exists but it is different only in the sense that if the soul has been cleansed it goes right to heaven. BUt its the same in the sense if it has not been cleansed is being held in another place other then heaven or hell. ITs still a middle place. The big difference is once cleansed it no longer has to linger as in the O.T.

I do not know any clearer way to explain it. I am sorry I tried.

:banghead: Rinnie, all I am asking for are references from the Early Church Fathers or other Catholic theologians, scriptural support, and/or official Church documents that show that this isn’t just your private interpretation. You asked me for official Church documents earlier, and I gave you Catechism excerpts, then I gave you an excerpt from the [unofficial] Catholic Encyclopedia. I have asked you for the same, and you keep coming back with your private interpretation, which I already have heard!

Can you or can you not cite ECF, scriptural support (book, chapter, and verse), and/or other Catholic documents that state 1) Purgatory replaced the Bosom of Abraham as the “waiting place”, and 2) the Bosom of Abraham was a place of cleansing? I’ve asked this multiple times and you ignore it.

Again, I have heard your personal argument/interpretation, and understand them perfectly. Now I would like scriptural, ECF, and/or theologian support for it so that I know that it is not just your private interpretation (which no one has any reason to accept if it is just your private interpretation). Is that too hard to ask??

Again, can you or can you not demonstrate that the above two points are historical beliefs held by the early Christians, or that a later theologian has written about them (the two specific points above), and that this isn’t just your personal/private interpretation that I do not have to accept as true? You are Catholic, you should know why I’m asking for this.

 

[rinnie]

:banghead: Rinnie, all I am asking for are references from the Early Church Fathers or other Catholic theologians, scriptural support, and/or official Church documents that show that this isn’t just your private interpretation. You asked me for official Church documents earlier, and I gave you Catechism excerpts, then I gave you an excerpt from the [unofficial] Catholic Encyclopedia. I have asked you for the same, and you keep coming back with your private interpretation, which I already have heard!

Can you or can you not cite ECF, scriptural support (book, chapter, and verse), and/or other Catholic documents that state 1) Purgatory replaced the Bosom of Abraham as the “waiting place”, and 2) the Bosom of Abraham was a place of cleansing? I’ve asked this multiple times and you ignore it.

Again, I have heard your personal argument/interpretation, and understand them perfectly. Now I would like scriptural, ECF, and/or theologian support for it so that I know that it is not just your private interpretation (which no one has any reason to accept if it is just your private interpretation). Is that too hard to ask??

Again, can you or can you not demonstrate that the above two points are historical beliefs held by the early Christians, or that a later theologian has written about them (the two specific points above), and that this isn’t just your personal/private interpretation that I do not have to accept as true? You are Catholic, you should know why I’m asking for this.

I never said the it was the teaching of the Church that Purgatory officially replaced the bosom of Abraham. I just tried to show how there was indeed a waiting place to in the O.T. that souls were being held until CHrist released. But they still had to be purified in Christ.

I said the only difference is now that Christ opened up Heaven you still can go to this state to be purified in Christ but since Christ opened up heaven you no longer linger.

But if I misunderstood it I apologize. The way I understand this teachings was the dogmatic bull BENEDICTUS DEUS.

THe way I understand it is again after Jesus passion the souls who stand in no further need of purification do not have to linger in a intermediate State.

This teaching to me proved 2 things.

1. There was in the O.T and still is today a intermediate State.
2. That in this state souls did indeed still need this purification.

THe only difference is today if you have gone through it you can go Directly to Heaven and be with God. But in the O.T even if you have gone through the purification you had to still linger. Until Jesus opened it up.

I just tried to show there is a connection between the Judiac Conceptions and the Christian.

So the only thing that I can see that that is my own conclusion is that by saying Purgatory replaced the bosom of Abraham, that may not be the exact truth. But Purgatory always existed, but if it changed its only because Jesus opened up heaven and raised the souls up that were perfected in Christ. But if a soul is righteous it still may need purfication, but if it does not need it its goes straight up, thats all.

 

[TheosisM]

I never said the it was the teaching of the Church that Purgatory officially replaced the bosom of Abraham. I just tried to show how there was indeed a waiting place to in the O.T. that souls were being held until CHrist released. But they still had to be purified in Christ.

I said the only difference is now that Christ opened up Heaven you still can go to this state to be purified in Christ but since Christ opened up heaven you no longer linger.

But if I misunderstood it I apologize. The way I understand this teachings was the dogmatic bull BENEDICTUS DEUS.

THe way I understand it is again after Jesus passion the souls who stand in no further need of purification do not have to linger in a intermediate State.

This teaching to me proved 2 things.

1. There was in the O.T and still is today a intermediate State.
2. That in this state souls did indeed still need this purification.

THe only difference is today if you have gone through it you can go Directly to Heaven and be with God. But in the O.T even if you have gone through the purification you had to still linger. Until Jesus opened it up.

I just tried to show there is a connection between the Judiac Conceptions and the Christian.

So the only thing that I can see that that is my own conclusion is that by saying Purgatory replaced the bosom of Abraham, that may not be the exact truth. But Purgatory always existed, but if it changed its only because Jesus opened up heaven and raised the souls up that were perfected in Christ. But if a soul is righteous it still may need purfication, but if it does not need it its goes straight up, thats all.

Okay, this is what I was looking for, thanks for explaining.

One question: how do you conclude that purification/cleansing occurred in the Bosom of Abraham? From what I have read about it, it was simply a waiting/holding place (until Heaven was opened up by Christ), and haven’t seen anything about a cleansing/purifying aspect.

 

[rinnie]

Okay, this is what I was looking for, thanks for explaining.

One question: how do you conclude that purification/cleansing occurred in the Bosom of Abraham? From what I have read about it, it was simply a waiting/holding place (until Heaven was opened up by Christ), and haven’t seen anything about a cleansing/purifying aspect.

Glad you asked, and I will probally make you sorry you did

Okay here is how I am seeing it. In this Bull the Pope taught that in the time ater Christs passion, death and accension into heaven the souls of those departed persons who stand in NO FUTHER need of purification do not have to LINGER IN THE intermediate State.

See what I mean. That shows me that the ones who have not completed this purification do have to linger.

Now back to Abraham, the people in the O.T prayed for the dead right? Okay now if they did, we know that the prayers could help them. So we know that if they needed prayers that would not be completely purified yet. Now we know if they were in hell the prayers could not have helped them, only in what we call Purgatory. Or the intermediate State,

Now we know the if they were completely saved they are in no need of prayers and if they are in heaven our prayers could not help them.

Now here is another reason I do not feel they were competely saved yet. Jesus Christ.

How I figure this is After the death of Jesus there is no longer a closed heaven. Christ is heaven himself. God has opened himself to man and man when he passes through the gate of death as the one justified.

See Abraham and all of the souls still needed as Savior Jesus Christ. Thats why he went down to hades to release the righteous.

Now getting back the teachings of the Pope those who were deemed righteous and were in no further need of Purificiation got to go to heaven. Now unless I missed it I never heard that every soul was released only the ones that were not in further need of purification. See what I mean. I am not saying I am correct. I just think from what I have read, I very well could be.

Because again thats where I am seeing O.T ties into N.T. That we still although deeded righteous may have to forego a purifying fire. And the O.T and the N.T still have the same Savior Jesus Christ. He never changed the rules.

 

[rinnie]

Another reason I know they had to have, and have to go throught the cleansing stage is scripture.

Nothing Unclean can enter heaven! IF they did not go through that purifying stage they would be unclean.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

fact: Divine forgiveness purifies man of sin - never purgatorial suffering.

 

[Monte1945]

No Otrthodox Christian is arguing about prayer for the dead.

I think this issue is one of those issues which the Church states that comes
from the “The implication of the Bible” more than direct scriputres stating
this is how it works… We have scriptures which indicate there is a process
of Pergatory. (a purging porcess)

I think the best/easiest way for me to understand the doctrine of Purgatory is that
since I have been aware of my santification responsability I have grown in my Faith
since.

I am far more than who I was… and I am far less than who I should be.

I am thinking in the lines of St. Paul when he realized this very same thought
about his own lack of santification. When he wrote the 7th chapter of Romans.

It is “possible” that when I leave this world, though forgiven of my sins there might
be some purging of the “consequence” of my sins.

So, with this in mind, that I am who I am, but I am not who I ought to be.

I think there is a process of my soul where I shall know as I am known and though
I see through a glass darkly I will see as He see’s me. I think that God will
take me to the end result of my santification so that I will be who I ought to have become
through out my life and that might take a split second or it might take longer.

This is what I understand as the process of purgatory…

I think one of the first and common misunderstandings is that we will be aware of
ourselves and of this process will be in the human form. It will be in our spiritual
form and the perceptions we are attempting to understand this from is not the
same as it will be there. We are merely limited as to our human perceptions and
we can not grasp what purgatory will be like. I think it will be within a type of comprehending it from within our spiritual form and no eye has seen or ear has heard what that state of our being will be like…

You are trying to use “reason” where Faith might belong.

That can lead you up the wrong trail…

Where one can understand an issue of God through “reason”
one must be careful that 'Reason" didn’t created it.

 

[Bill_Pick]

No limbo of infants does not exist. It is not official teaching of the Church.

Limbo Has not been a teaching of the Church for years.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Stated by Peter in Acts…

Christ sends out his twelve apostles, with the power of miracles. The lessons he gives them.

1 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I think this issue is one of those issues which the Church states that comes
from the “The implication of the Bible” more than direct scriputres stating
this is how it works… We have scriptures which indicate there is a process
of Pergatory. (a purging porcess)

I think the best/easiest way for me to understand the doctrine of Purgatory is that
since I have been aware of my santification responsability I have grown in my Faith
since.

I am far more than who I was… and I am far less than who I should be.

I am thinking in the lines of St. Paul when he realized this very same thought
about his own lack of santification. When he wrote the 7th chapter of Romans.

It is “possible” that when I leave this world, though forgiven of my sins there might
be some purging of the “consequence” of my sins.

[SIGN]So, with this in mind, that I am who I am, but I am not who I ought to be[/SIGN].

I think there is a process of my soul where I shall know as I am known and though
I see through a glass darkly I will see as He see’s me. I think that God will
take me to the end result of my santification so that I will be who I ought to have become
through out my life and that might take a split second or it might take longer.

This is what I understand as the process of purgatory…

I think one of the first and common misunderstandings is that we will be aware of
ourselves and of this process will be in the human form. It will be in our spiritual
form and the perceptions we are attempting to understand this from is not the
same as it will be there. We are merely limited as to our human perceptions and
we can not grasp what purgatory will be like. I think it will be within a type of comprehending it from within our spiritual form and no eye has seen or ear has heard what that state of our being will be like…

You are trying to use “reason” where Faith might belong.

That can lead you up the wrong trail…

Where one can understand an issue of God through “reason”
one must be careful that 'Reason" didn’t created it.

You got it my love; And here is another thing, The more you study the things you do not understand the quicker you grow in your faith also. Thats what happened to me. And I got some REAL good news for you. The Church always comes up on top! Thats the Glory of it

 

[rinnie]

fact: Divine forgiveness purifies man of sin - never purgatorial suffering.

See Andrew I am on to people like you now. Oh it took me a few years, but I figured you out

You take one piece of scripture that is indeed true, and try to make another piece of scripture wrong. Especially if its a teaching of the RCC. I got a name for this now. ITs the Protestatant thing.

Now could you show me that scripture that says that Divine forgiveness purifies the sins of man and AND you will not be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. ANd that you will not GET OUT until the LAST PENNY IS PAID. Now tell me Andrew where is the tempory Prison, And it is tempory Andrew because Jesus said you will NOT GET OUT UNTIL, which means you will get out.

In Matt it says we must be made perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, We are only made perfect through Purification, if it is not completed on earth it is continued in a transitional state. Remember the above scripture that tempory prison which is indeed what we call purgatory.

How about luke 12:47 When the Master comes some will recieve light of heavy beatings, BUT WILL LIVE. Thats not heaven Andrew.

Now you show me Andrew where does it say that Divine forgiveness is not needed, It don’t. I agree, without it purgatory is not even an option for goodness sakes.

But please show me where it says divine forgiveness is all that is needed, and if you are not completely clean you can get into heaven.

How about Matt 12:32 It says no one who speaks against the HS will be forgiven in this world or the next. So it show there is indeed forgiveness after death, But forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, there is none in hell, so where are you. Purgatory. or anoter place, state whatever you wanna call it. BUt it is not heaven, it is not hell. Please tell me where it is?

 

[BlueSapphire]

Purgatory is a great gift from a merciful God. God desires that all men be saved. For that purpose He gave us His only Son to be sacrificed. For that prupose He gave us His Church so that we would no longer be “children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men” (Eph 4:11-15)
For that purpose He gave us the sacraments as a means of grace and for that purpose He gave us a final place for our purification, purgatory. It is here that Christ’s sacrifice is applied to us so that we may be completely sanctified so that we may “be perfect” and enter into heaven.

AMEN!!

 

[Mr_Skeptic]

a more accurate term is that Purgatory is not a destination but a process. no one goes to Purgatory for good. its a process of going to heaven, to purify yourself and be worthy of the presence of God

Wouldn’t it be a better idea for God to create a purification device that people would pass through while on a conveyor belt? Or, maybe with a snap of His fingers everyone gets purified?

Its been so long I honestly forget…is there fire and brimstone in Purgatory?

 

[1beleevr]

See Andrew I am on to people like you now. Oh it took me a few years, but I figured you out

You take one piece of scripture that is indeed true, and try to make another piece of scripture wrong. Especially if its a teaching of the RCC. I got a name for this now. ITs the Protestatant thing.

Now could you show me that scripture that says that Divine forgiveness purifies the sins of man and AND you will not be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. ANd that you will not GET OUT until the LAST PENNY IS PAID. Now tell me Andrew where is the tempory Prison, And it is tempory Andrew because Jesus said you will NOT GET OUT UNTIL, which means you will get out.

In Matt it says we must be made perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, We are only made perfect through Purification, if it is not completed on earth it is continued in a transitional state. Remember the above scripture that tempory prison which is indeed what we call purgatory.

How about luke 12:47 When the Master comes some will recieve light of heavy beatings, BUT WILL LIVE. Thats not heaven Andrew.

Now you show me Andrew where does it say that Divine forgiveness is not needed, It don’t. I agree, without it purgatory is not even an option for goodness sakes.

But please show me where it says divine forgiveness is all that is needed, and if you are not completely clean you can get into heaven.

How about Matt 12:32 It says no one who speaks against the HS will be forgiven in this world or the next. So it show there is indeed forgiveness after death, But forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, there is none in hell, so where are you. Purgatory. or anoter place, state whatever you wanna call it. BUt it is not heaven, it is not hell. Please tell me where it is?

]

Hey, rinn; could you elaborate on this transitional place, ot state? Which Holy scriptures describe it?It isn’t 1Cor 3:13-15; this talks of a man’s “works” being tested by fire! Oh, wait, it’s probably a catholic thin, right?