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rinnie
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Well of course it is silly. Who do you think gave you the bible. The Catholic Church Silly!!]
Hey, rinn; could you elaborate on this transitional place, ot state? Which Holy scriptures describe it?It isn’t 1Cor 3:13-15; this talks of a man’s “works” being tested by fire! Oh, wait, it’s probably a catholic thin, right?
Every single piece of scripture you read is a Catholic thing!
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Javl
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The Jews of old, and many Jews today, believed in a “holding place” in which the souls of those who died were placed. Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian of about 100 AD, describes this “holding place” in his writings. Also, has anyone bothered to read and reference 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:9? These verses describe how Jesus went to preach the gospel to those who had died. They were all in this “holding place”. If these instances don’t reference Purgatory, then I don’t know what does. Remember, no one enters Heaven until the “last penny is paid”.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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rinnie
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I was talking about judgement day. The fire either saves a man or destroys him. Why 1veleevr, what does your faith say that the scripture says.]
Hey, rinn; could you elaborate on this transitional place, ot state? Which Holy scriptures describe it?It isn’t 1Cor 3:13-15; this talks of a man’s “works” being tested by fire! Oh, wait, it’s probably a catholic thin, right?
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1beleevr
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What we believe is that there will be two(2) judgement seats, the first will determine your rewards(i.e., the test by fire as Paul relates). This will determine, if you will, how many jewels in your crown! The second judgement, is the one that determines your destination; because as we all know,1) God does not send anyone to Hell, and 2) Your soulds does not die after mortal death! You will spend eternity somewhere(your choice!)
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1beleevr
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]Well of course it is silly. Who do you think gave you the bible. The Catholic Church Silly!!
Every single piece of scripture you read is a Catholic thing!
You are so sily, rinnie!
The catholics didn’t give me the Bible; God did through His prophets and apostles! Silly!
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1beleevr
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1beleevr
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Javl
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As Catholics, we believe that everyone who is repentent and his/her final destination is to be with our Creator must pass through purgatory. To enter Heaven, and to be with God forever, a soul must be clean of all stains of sin and pure since “nothing impure may enter Heaven.”
Jesus Himself said that even “the last penny must be paid”. Purgatory is NOT a place of torture or torment although the pains suffered in purgatory are greater than any pains suffered in life. These pains are pains suffered by the delay of the Beatific Vision which is our final and everlasting reward.
Many, including some Catholics, deny this and the existence of pugatory. I can imagine their surprise when they do find themselves in purgatory when they at last leave this life.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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rinnie
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Huh?? You know 1B you can sure read things into something that were never said. Is it a gift
Purgatory is for all souls that have been accepted by our Lord Jesus Christ as righteous but need to be purifed and made perfect for heaven. So as far as I can see, protestants have souls too
right!! So I never read in the SS or ST that only Catholics have access to this grace. It all souls that are righteous by our Lord. Unless you can come up with some scripture or teaching then protestants are in too:shrug:
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rinnie
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Oh, so you are saying the Prophets and Apostles were not Catholics now. Silly Silly Silly]
You are so sily, rinnie!
I did not know God gave us the Bible, I really did think that came from Catholic’s. I thought God gave us the word! And Catholic’s composed the BibleI was told that the bible did not exist until long after Jesus. But the word existed from the Time of Jesus.
So I will have to make a note of that. How did we get it did it fall from the sky?
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Bill_Pick
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Since the Gates of Heaven were closed from the time of Adam and Eve, and no one entered, John 3:13, where did all of the Biblical Prophets and hero’s go until the Gates were reopened at the Crucifixion? Surely they could not have been in hell, as that is permanent and no one leaves there. Moses and Elias appeared to Jesus before the Crucifixion, Matthew 17:3. From where did they come? Sheol or Purgatory, There had to have been a third place, right? If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?
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Monte1945
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as is usual in thinking from outside of our Faith
to attempt to grasp the “abstract” of God’s Truths one can get confused.
I think the subject of Purgatory and "“indulgences” isn’t that easy to just figure it
out in our heads… one can approach this from a “reasonable” position and be
able to understand the confusion it can bring.
There is data for both sides of the issue… and again I think it is where one has to
measure the degrees closely in order to try and evaluate it.
My thinking goes like this: We are what we are… but we are not what we “ought” to be.
When we pass from our Christian life we are not what we should have become…
In order for us to actually enter into Heaven over yonder… we have to shed some remaining sins, and to grow into that which we didn’t grow into…
This processing is what is considered as Purgatory… it can be confusing to understand as we will not be there in our physcial bodies but in our spiritual (soul) ones.
Already we have a mystery… how are we to perceive that experience there if we don’t have our five body senses… ?
The second part of this issue… is Indulgences… what are they and how were they distorted by the church… from Luther’s point of view…
Scripture states… “the prayer of a rightious man availth much”… “if two or three of you agree on one thing and ask it in my name it will be granted too you”
The church taught then and now, that certain men and woman who lead a Holy life
had powerful prayers… And if two or more of these “rightious” christians came together their prayers were more powerful than ours alone…
Therefore, we might need prayers of the living church to help us get through that final processing of our souls… (purgatory) and the church had powerful praying christians in their monasteries. etc…
One could go to the chruch, (even now) and ask the church to pray for a need for us in this life and for our loved ones who were passed away…
The church would ask for a little donation to have a special prayer service for someone
living or dead… (they still do) But where the distortion came in, was where there were
some christians who came to the church and donated money, so that when they died
they felt they could by pass the processing plant… and they wouldn’t have to endure
the wait or purging of their souls.
I don’t believe Luther denied the doctrine of Pugatory but just thinking that one could pay for it and not have to be responsable for the consequence of their sins…
As some took that as a free pass to commit sins and not worry about them.
I personally think that there is good in doctrine of Purgatory but as it being a process
more than a place… but I agree with Luther that the idea can be distorted by some people to give them a free license to sin…
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rinnie
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Those who are unconfortable with them do not realize how biblical they really are.
I agree. Indulgences are part of the Churchs infallible teachings.This means no catholic is at liberty to disbelieve them. The council of the trent condemms with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them.
Those who are unconfortable with them do not realize how biblical they really are.
First, Monte, I appreciate your well thought out post.
Thanks again,
Jon
One of the reasons I’m here is to understnad from the Catholic perspective.
Not much here I will argue with.
And without an explicit statement regarding it from scripture.
Actually, I think one could truthfully say that, at least at first, he didn’t blame the Church but corrupt people acting in its name.
Lutherans would not question, in general, that prayers of the faithful are of great value and importance.
Private masses for the dead was a particular bone of contention for the reformers.
Certainly at first this was probably the case.
Yes, that is why I like Father Tavard’s comments on the subject. As you said, it is a mystery, and to that end, it seems we ought to be willing to consider various expressions - Orthodox, Anglican, etc.
Thanks again,
Jon
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Javl
Guest
If only Luther would have fought for reform within the church, what a big difference it would have made for today. If Luther had stayed, with the backing of the German princes, and fought for reform we wouldn’t have a splintered Christianity that is so evident today. But the German princes, tired of being monetarily bled by corruption within the church, manipulated Luther and caused the irreparable damage that has resulted in what we have in the world today. Oh, well. Such is man’s greed and avarice. Just because a man wears a Roman collar does not mean he is holy or sanctified. After all, look at Judas.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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rinnie
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But Catholic teaching has never been that Purgatory is a free license to sin. I understand that People do not understand its meaning but the CCC is quite clear on the teaching.
I feel that purgatory is indeed a process, but the way I see it rather it is a state or a place what really is the difference. Its like saying mental abuse is alot better then physical abuse to me. To me it would be more of a state of mind because your soul is what lives and goes on, but it could also be a place because its a place that you mind goes to, So all in all its the same thing. Just like abuse would be abuse. No one could judge what is worse mental is physical.
I personally look at purgatory as a walk with God through life. I see it as God showing us the other side of the coin. Not what People did to hurt us, but what we did in return. To show us how our decisions and actions changed others life, and how we could have made maybe a wonderful difference, where we did the opposite. Thats where I think the torment and pain is. But that is just my throught there. But I feel that is why it is a cleansing process because when we come out of it, we are really perfected in Christ. We know now it would never happen again. Its not that we did it on purpose, but we could have been a better person. That is why I believe few people do not go there, because few people are really that good, While we believe in Christ, and try to be good people, we all at times in our life let sin get the best of us, Rather in anger, pride, greed, etc. it happens.
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But Catholic teaching has never been that Purgatory is a free license to sin. I understand that People do not understand its meaning but the CCC is quite clear on the teaching.
I feel that purgatory is indeed a process, but the way I see it rather it is a state or a place what really is the difference. Its like saying mental abuse is alot better then physical abuse to me. To me it would be more of a state of mind because your soul is what lives and goes on, but it could also be a place because its a place that you mind goes to, So all in all its the same thing. Just like abuse would be abuse. No one could judge what is worse mental is physical.
I personally look at purgatory as a walk with God through life. I see it as God showing us the other side of the coin. Not what People did to hurt us, but what we did in return. To show us how our decisions and actions changed others life, and how we could have made maybe a wonderful difference, where we did the opposite. Thats where I think the torment and pain is. But that is just my throught there. But I feel that is why it is a cleansing process because when we come out of it, we are really perfected in Christ. We know now it would never happen again. Its not that we did it on purpose, but we could have been a better person. That is why I believe few people do not go there, because few people are really that good, While we believe in Christ, and try to be good people, we all at times in our life let sin get the best of us, Rather in anger, pride, greed, etc. it happens.
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1beleevr
Guest
]Oh, so you are saying the Prophets and Apostles were not Catholics now. Silly Silly Silly
I was told that the bible did not exist until long after Jesus. But the word existed from the Time of Jesus.
So I will have to make a note of that. How did we get it did it fall from the sky?
The Old Testament prophets were not catholic, sounds like they were Jewish! And the apostles were all Jewish, who became believers in and followers of Jesus! So, maybe we can buythe theory that people whom you choose to call catholics, put the Bible, but it was inspired and spoken by God, through His prophets and apostles! I don’t believe there will be any religion in Heaven:thumbsup: Just saints praising their Saviour all day long(and all night, too!)
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Javl
Guest
Hi 1beleever:
we have hashed and re-hashed that subject in other threads on this forum. But I most definitely agree with you as far as heaven goes. I do hope to meet you there and we can join the Heavenly Chorus praising God, our Creator and Savior, all day and night. God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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1beleevr
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]Hi 1beleever:
we have hashed and re-hashed that subject in other threads on this forum. But I most definitely agree with you as far as heaven goes. I do hope to meet you there and we can join the Heavenly Chorus praising God, our Creator and Savior, all day and night. God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
I agree, you can only debate something for so long, before it becomes redundant and B-O-R-I-N-G! We will not be any denomination when we get to Heaven; it will be of no significance! But, I do you look forward to seeing all of you up there:thumbsup: What a truly glorious day it will be!
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