Purgatory......

[tweetymom]

Then, what ever Jesus said… and is written in the scriptures is for all of us… yes?

Then that means you accept his mother as your mother… as he meant “all of us”
when he said to John… “behold thy mother”…

Yes?

Of course why wouldn’t I?

 

[Third_Day]

=tweetymom;6346655]With due respect, when I was saved and accepted Jesus in my heart, I was given a new life and infilled with the Holy Spirit. Now of course I am going to slip and do those things I shouldn’t. I ask for forgiveness and I am forgiven. All you that advocate for purgatory have a gloomy outlook. Mine is beautiful.

Only the saved go to purgatory. Hope to see you there.

 

[Monte1945]

]
Not misinterpreting scripture and the cc is fallible! With Matthew 23:9, I am saying that I believe that Jesus meant that you are not to call any man on earth Father(upper case used to emphasize that God is Father, not father) Of course I had anearthly father, but God and only God is my Holy Father, not the pope or any other catholic priest! This is the respect that God deserves!

God chooses to reveal Himself through the Church… Any and all Churches.
He does not personally reveal himself… He comes to us “through” the buildings
priests, the Bishops, the Sacraments and yes even the Pope…

When God revealed his “law” to man, God personally used fire and wrote
the ten commandments on the two tablet of stone… but when it came
to the New Testament he used the Holy Spirit to “inspire” men to convey his
messages to us…

Catholics do not stop at Salvation through a intellectual “belief” in the Name of
Jesus… we understand that Salvation is a process we are to engage in towards
our “sanctification” to become Christ through the Sacraments… We do not beleive
that our only christian responsibility is to just go around saying we are saved…

We are to receive our christian growth through the gifts of the Holy spirit through
the Sacraments of the church… and in order to do this, we must see the help
of the church and her Priests… We consider the church and the priests as
our spiritual growth fathers… and not the father of our life which is how God
becomes our father… he is the father of our souls… and the church is the father
of our sanctification…

Jesus choose 12 men to create a church… to receive, proclaim and to protect
his truths He wishes to reveal to the world until the end of time.

Notice very carefully I wrote 12 “men”…

I imagine you have a church building, you have men for ministers, you have
a group of men/women who will pray for you… who will provide a “place” for
lost people to be able to come and find the Truth of God…

Or are you saying that there isn’t any need for people to be involved in the
Kingdom of God here on earth… That God will just reveal his truths through
some magic communication without sharing those chores with the Church
(believers) on earth?

Then why did Jesus say… “He who hears you… hears me?”

There is far more in God calling you than to just save your soul…
He has some work for you to do in His work on earth… He wants
you to live your faith to the point that lost people will find Him
in you and to bring them to this truth… I feel the best place
for those lost souls is to come to a church where they can
find fathers for their salvation which includes helping them to
connect with the Grace of God for the gifts and fruits of the
Holy Spirit… there is far more going on with your salvation then
to just pluck you out of this world and put you in Heaven…

You yourself have received the power to be one of the Sons or Daughters
of the Kingdom… and you are called to be part of God’s work here on earth…

 

[Monte1945]

Thank you for your wonderful post. I am grateful for what Jesus did for me and the Holy Spirit, without whom I would be nothing. I am thankful I am a new person in Christ Jesus.

“Did for you” or should that be “Doing for you”?

 

[Monte1945]

Thank you for thinking of me in this way. But it isn’t neceessary, because I do not believe there is a purgatory. We have our chance to be right with God here on earth and He gives us many chances. When we are dead our chance is over. But thanks anyway.
Oh and by the way it is not self imposed understanding, it is Holy Spitit understanding, God Bless

If purgatory is an actual reality then it is…

If it isn’t it isn’t…

The truth of this abstract idea is not proved nor unproven from one’s intellectually
ability to grasp one of God’s Truth.

It really doesn’t matter to God whether you can understand this idea or not.
You can believe what you want… but there are indications from scriptures which
we consider valid ones which give to us this idea… There are other scriptures
which is in most of the non-catholic bibles which "imply’ there is a process of
our souls… for the complete purification of our souls.

Now, the church teaches that there will be a completion of our souls… it will go
from what we are when die, to who we should have been, throwing in the idea
of the consequence of sin after the forgiveness of sins… and that the living
church members and their prayers can help us to go through that process
with less discomfort. Part of our daily prayers is for our loved ones who have
passed on… and other people who we have met and known or know of…

Now maybe there isn’t a process… and that is alright with me. and if it is as
you think it is… that would be real nice for us all…

But if there is a process then thinking like you could cause one to have a longer
process then it could have been…

You can do it your way, and I will do it my way… but I can not accept that because
you can not grasp the process of what we call purgatory in your bible which has deleted
some of the books we use to understand this process… or that the one which remain
in your bible you can not accept. It is your soul too. One would think that you might
want to seriously look into this and see if there might be some merit to it…

But I don’t think you can take any of God’s truths and attempt to fit them within your
“reasoning” … as you might not be blessed with the degree of intellect to understand this.
And if that is so… That is not a good argument to “neglect” this possible truth…

If one can reason God…then reason could have invented God…

We are not called to understand but to believe in the revealed truths of
God… There is a great difference between the two…

 

[tweetymom]

“Did for you” or should that be “Doing for you”?

did and still doing:thumbsup:

 

[tweetymom]

If purgatory is an actual reality then it is…

If it isn’t it isn’t…

The truth of this abstract idea is not proved nor unproven from one’s intellectually
ability to grasp one of God’s Truth.

It really doesn’t matter to God whether you can understand this idea or not.
You can believe what you want… but there are indications from scriptures which
we consider valid ones which give to us this idea… There are other scriptures
which is in most of the non-catholic bibles which "imply’ there is a process of
our souls… for the complete purification of our souls.

Now, the church teaches that there will be a completion of our souls… it will go
from what we are when die, to who we should have been, throwing in the idea
of the consequence of sin after the forgiveness of sins… and that the living
church members and their prayers can help us to go through that process
with less discomfort. Part of our daily prayers is for our loved ones who have
passed on… and other people who we have met and known or know of…

Now maybe there isn’t a process… and that is alright with me. and if it is as
you think it is… that would be real nice for us all…

But if there is a process then thinking like you could cause one to have a longer
process then it could have been…

You can do it your way, and I will do it my way… but I can not accept that because
you can not grasp the process of what we call purgatory in your bible which has deleted
some of the books we use to understand this process… or that the one which remain
in your bible you can not accept. It is your soul too. One would think that you might
want to seriously look into this and see if there might be some merit to it…

But I don’t think you can take any of God’s truths and attempt to fit them within your
“reasoning” … as you might not be blessed with the degree of intellect to understand this.
And if that is so… That is not a good argument to “neglect” this possible truth…

If one can reason God…then reason could have invented God…

We are not called to understand but to believe in the revealed truths of
God… There is a great difference between the two…

What books are deleted from my Bible. I have many

 

[rinnie]

With due respect, when I was saved and accepted Jesus in my heart, I was given a new life and infilled with the Holy Spirit. Now of course I am going to slip and do those things I shouldn’t. I ask for forgiveness and I am forgiven. All you that advocate for purgatory have a gloomy outlook. Mine is beautiful.

Tweety are we not all given a new life in Christ through baptism? Now you think my outlook is gloomy look at yours. Lets say as you say slip, and into the process of that slipping you die? Then what happens? So according to your rules its heaven or hell right? So then if someone dies and has not been completely perfected in Christ they are going straight to hell. They do not get the final cleansing the scripture says. Wow. Talk about gloomy outlook. By your standards I do not see many getting in.

I think I will stick with the teachings of Christ tweets, I would rather die in the Lord and accept the final cleansing to be purified in CHrist to enter the gates of heaven.

Purgatory to me is a wonderful place, its my last stop between earth and heaven, hopefully if God accepts me. Now what you are saying is Baptism is enough, thats not what scripture says.

You are saying being baptised and accepting Jesus Christ makes you ready to enter heaven.

Scripture says Baptism, confession, and being pefected in Christ makes you ready for heaven. You are saying we must just confess our sins and we are in . Scripture says we must not only confess our sins we must be cleansed of the desire completely.

I have to disagree with you strongly about asking for forgiveness from a sin makes us completely clean from it. Because if you were correct then no one would ever repeat that particular sin again. Don;t get me wrong it is possible, but not likely. Confession and repentance are needed and for some a very long time.

I do not see how you can say confession is enough when you yourself say you slip. Being perfected in Christ means no slippage. No ooops in heaven tweets.

Do you agree or disagree that we have to be made perfect as Christ is made perfect in order to enter heaven. If you disagree you disagree with the word of God. If you agree why then do you have slips? Because if just confessing a sin makes you perfect in Christ why the slips as you say. This does not make sense.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

With due respect, [SIGN]when I was saved and accepted Jesus in my heart, I was given a new life and infilled with the Holy Spirit[/SIGN]. Now of course I am going to slip and do those things I shouldn’t. I ask for forgiveness and I am forgiven. All you that advocate for purgatory have a gloomy outlook. Mine is beautiful.

Now tweety I agree with you, but did you or did you not give up the new Life in Christ by your sin? Or are you saying you can still be in a state of Grace (what we call free from sin) and a state of sin at the same time? Because scripture says thats impossible.

Now lets say at the time of your death, you died in a state of sin, not mortal sin, but venial sin, then from what you are saying it does not matter, you are going straight to hell correct?

Lets say God forbid someone just finds out that their best friend is having a affair with ones husband and has a car accident and dies. At that moment one is full of anger and has hate in ones heart for both. So according to your rules hell it is for that soul right? Because that person had no time on this earth to repent and confess that venial sin, which we call it? So hell it is right?

 

[coosa]

Purgatory is said to be one of the main complaints of Luther. I can’t speak for protestants, but I think that they believe that indulgences and purgatory were used to help fund the church. How did this work?

 

[Bill_Pick]

for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

 

[rinnie]

Purgatory is said to be one of the main complaints of Luther. I can’t speak for protestants, but I think that they believe that indulgences and purgatory were used to help fund the church. How did this work?

But unlike protestants we do not care what Luther complained about. We believe in the teachings of the Apostles and they can show indulgences even in the O.T.

 

[rinnie]

Coosa just curious all I have heard from protestants in this thread is there is no purgatory. Tell me what does that scripture mean in accordance with the teaching of your Church?

 

[coosa]

But unlike protestants we do not care what Luther complained about. We believe in the teachings of the Apostles and they can show indulgences even in the O.T.

rinne, I hold no reverence for Luther, I was just curious about the process by which Luther claimed the church was generating money from its people. Or was he just lying.

 

[coosa]

Coosa just curious all I have heard from protestants in this thread is there is no purgatory. Tell me what does that scripture mean in accordance with the teaching of your Church?

rinnie, What scripture are you refering to? The scriptures exsisted in over 500 languages by 500 AD. For the nest 1000 years to be posession of them and any language but one meant possible death. You may want to research those that took the risk so that rinnie could read the scriptures. Greatsite.com may be of help. Christ entire mission was to release us from sin, completely, That involves faith and trust. I don’t know if you have children of your own, but am sure you would give them full and complete love. We have trouble accepting His forgiveness because He is so much more merciful than man can comprehend, much like our own parents, only infinitetly greater.

 

[coosa]

But unlike protestants we do not care what Luther complained about. We believe in the teachings of the Apostles and they can show indulgences even in the O.T./QUOTE
rinnie, The believers of the OT were judged according to the Laws God had laid down for them. Christ was the only man that obeyed them fully. A new covenant was then entered into between God and man.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;6349150:

But unlike protestants we do not care what Luther complained about. We believe in the teachings of the Apostles and they can show indulgences even in the O.T.

While I agree with some of what you are saying, Just because Jesus fulfulled the O.L does not mean we still don’t have to keep the commandments. And indulgences were obeyed in the O.L and are also obeyed in the N.L. We have proof of that from the early Church.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie, What scripture are you refering to? The scriptures exsisted in over 500 languages by 500 AD. For the nest 1000 years to be posession of them and any language but one meant possible death. You may want to research those that took the risk so that rinnie could read the scriptures. Greatsite.com may be of help. Christ entire mission was to release us from sin, completely, That involves faith and trust. I don’t know if you have children of your own, but am sure you would give them full and complete love. We have trouble accepting His forgiveness because He is so much more merciful than man can comprehend, much like our own parents, only infinitetly greater.

Oh sorry here it is:
2 Macc 12:44-45
Matt 5:25-26
1 Peter 3:18-20
Rev. 21-27

I understand you disagree with the Church teaching on these, and Tweety, and lb all disagree with the teaching of the CHurch, But what do you guys agree on that those teachings are referring to then? Thanks coosa.

 

[rinnie]

rinne, I hold no reverence for Luther, I was just curious about the process by which Luther claimed the church was generating money from its people. Or was he just lying.

Yes and No. Here is the thing granted some Priests may have abused their power with indulgences. But many many others did not.

An indulgence is obtained through the church who by virtue of the power binding and loosing granted to her by CHirst intervenes in favor of individual Christians that open for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remisssion of the temporal punishments due for thier sins. The church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians but also to spur them to works of devotion penance, and charity.

So when someone rich would give money to the needy, or someone poor would work for the church for free, or someone would choose to pray everyday for etc. ITs all a way of working off that sin. Where in one persons eyes its the rich paying off the church, its really the rich saying I am sorry Lord and shares his wealth and his time. ITs a donation to God, but mostly in money, time, prayers ets. Could be all.

Like say my sin was greed. And I am very very rich, So I see my sin, and say God forgive me, and I give money to the Church to help feed the poor. Everything that goes to the Church goes back to the poor.

But instead of Luther saying I see that some are abusing this power, he tried to make it more than what it was, say it was wrong, not the people that did wrong, but the indulgence itself. And they are not wrong.

Many Priests have fell from Grace. No one is denying that. Starting with Judas. But Jesus never said Man would not fall from Grace. Jesus said his church would not fall from grace.

Luther did not try to just take down the Priests he tried to take down the Church, Thats what was wrong.

 

[Bill_Pick]

rinnie, What scripture are you refering to? The scriptures exsisted in over 500 languages by 500 AD. For the nest 1000 years to be posession of them and any language but one meant possible death. You may want to research those that took the risk so that rinnie could read the scriptures. Greatsite.com may be of help. Christ entire mission was to release us from sin, completely, That involves faith and trust. I don’t know if you have children of your own, but am sure you would give them full and complete love. We have trouble accepting His forgiveness because He is so much more merciful than man can comprehend, much like our own parents, only infinitetly greater.

for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.