Purgatory

[Pug]

Rumor has it that the Catholic Church stopped teaching the concept of Purgatory. Is this true?

No.

“Purgatory” is still alive and kicking. But it is possible that someone has said something to you either about Limbo (more likely) or that someone feels the current way of discussing Purgatory is different somehow than it was before (less likely, but possible indeed). Others here have given the Catechism quotes to show that Purgatory is in there still, so I’ll provide a link for you to a speech given by our last pope that discusses the topic of Purgatory. It was given in 1999. The speech is pretty short, as far as these things go. It’s about one and a half pages, if you don’t read the prayer stuff at the bottom.

 

[Churchmouse]

i see…well i’m sorry that you have decided to leave the only church founded by Christ Himself, which He promised that He would one day return to, and that hell would never prevail against it…

Well, I left the Roman Catholic church, as for everything else, it is a matter of interpretation.

i’m gunna take a guess here and assume you only attended the novus ordo mass?

Nope, attended Tridentine masses early on.

i go to the tradtional Latin mass of the fssp…and i really can’t be happier, i’ve learned so much after joining it, and i can really see from the mass i use to attend, how someone can stay so ignorant in their faith and want to leave, there is nothing beautiful about the new mass, it’s plain and boring and modern, and pretty much focuses on man and not God…of course i can’t say every novus ordo mass is that way, but every one i’ve attended was…plus every one i’ve heard of…
we’ve actually brought protestants to our church, and they really loved it, even the sermons they thought were really good, i don’t think i’ve ever heard a boring(or short) sermon from any of the fssp priests, they’re always interested and informative and often moving,

I was anything but ignorant. Asides from my issues with purgatory, I was a pretty good Catholic, well versed in the faith. My issues wasn’t with liturgy but with doctrine.

well anyways, moving on…
men may err, but men who live completely for God and abandon themselves completely have God living in them and directing them, and i do not give credit to men but to God, men are nothing and have nothing of their own but their free will, all God needs is a willing soul in order to live and work in and through them.
Saint Francis was nothing more then a willing soul, willing to live for God and by God, he was a tool used and nothing more, of course i have respect and honor for him, after all he served God far better and more then i have or could even hope to(although i *should *hope to), but all knowledge and wisdom and goodness truly come from God alone, and we have no right to take credit for it.

With all due respect to de Sales, it was a matter of doctrine and not who said what.

if that work of Saint Francis does not interest you, try this -
goodcatholicbooks.org/francis/catholic-controversy.html
i can’t force you to read it, but i hope you do…

I’ve read enough of these sorts of books to say they are coming out of my ears , from both sides of the spectrum.

and one more thing, “de sales” only means “of sales” which is where saint Francis is from…just wanted to mention that…

Oh, I thought he was into selling stuff. Just kidding. Yes, I’m familiar with Francis de Sales and how names play into their place of origin or ministry.

CM

 

[mark_a]

Rumor has it that the Catholic Church stopped teaching the concept of Purgatory. Is this true?

Purgatory is the place for Catholics who should be in heaven, They stay there until they can be re-taught that it doesn’t exist.

 

[EmeraldWings]

I was anything but ignorant. Asides from my issues with purgatory, I was a pretty good Catholic, well versed in the faith. My issues wasn’t with liturgy but with doctrine.

knowledge and being “well versed” does not make a good catholic, in fact, those things without the interior life(practice of virtues, prayer, mortification, meditation, and so on) can be very dangerous to your faith, and make you feel that you know better than others or the church or even God Himself,
you may tell me that you did live that way and were good and holy, but the results speak for themselves, you did not remain obedient to God and did not trust in His church and it’s teachings, instead you left because you lacked the understanding of it’s doctrines, or at least were misguided in your understanding, and you also made the mistake of thinking you may interpret the bible however you want, in which case the devil can manipulate you…
maybe i’m wrong in some or all of this, but i can’t help wondering what causes someone to leave the church which Jesus founded, in favor of some other church which God has promised nothing for…i would never leave over something i simply don’t understand, because above all, my first concern is my obedience to God and trusting Him in all things, even if i must walk blindly, it’s no concern of mine what i don’t understand, my only concern is to know, love, and serve God…

well, i know i’m getting off topic here…so that’s all for now, i’m not trying to put you down or anything, and i’m sorry if i ever sounded arrogant, i know i can get that way sometimes, but i hope somehow i have helped you, even if not now, maybe some day, or atleast by my prayers.
ok, tc.

 

[mark_a]

I was anything but ignorant. Asides from my issues with purgatory, I was a pretty good Catholic, well versed in the faith. My issues wasn’t with liturgy but with doctrine.

So there are no problems with Catholic doctrine concerning marriage or contraception?

 

[NeedImprovement]

Rumor has it that the Catholic Church stopped teaching the concept of Purgatory. Is this true?

We still haven’t been given the source of your rumour. I tried to ask nicely Melek. I’m not looking to lose any potential friends here )). Please consider all the good members who have provided you with links and quotes - so far you haven’t reciprocated with anything to substantiate your claim.

I could just as easily claim *rumor has it *that President Obama has three wives and one of these has five husbands … if we aren’t obliged to substantiate our claims. Maybe you should cite a source, or change *rumor has *it to I was wondering if.

If there is a source given, some fellow members could show you where the error is.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I don’t know but I wish they would. It’s never made any sense to me. The death and resurrection of Jesus atoned for every sin that was and would ever be committed. I also can’t agree with the ascetic line of thinking in our church. I don’t feel I need to practice any kind of asceticism to atone for my or any elses sins, for the same reason I just stated. Why can’t we just accept that salvation is a grace freely given by God by virtue of Jesus’ sacrifice, if we are just willing to accept it? There seems to be a lot of ancient doctrine, particularly the medieval stuff, that the church just won’t seem to let go. Another example is the sainthood of Thomas More. The man burned Protestants at the stake. I know he was a martyr also, but it seems to me that he got what he deserved. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. How can anyone who burned others at the stake become a saint? Now John-Paul2, that’s different. Obviously the man was a saint. We were lucky to have him in our lifetime.

You still haven’t named anyone who St. Thomas More burned at the stake and haven’t given a source for this.

Something you may wish to consider:

You’re making it increasingly difficult for some of us to believe you’re a Catholic. God’s plan for sainthood is incongruent with your way of thinking.
By this type of logic we would have to also ask how could a criminal who deserved crucifixion become a saint ? Recall our Blessed Lord’s words to Dismah - the good thief : [Luke 23:43 ; KJV]
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise…

Not good enough ? You would only accept the example of a murderer-saint to disprove the flawed logic you’re using … someone else who had someone killed ? Well the example closest to your (yet to be substantiated) example of St. Thomas More, which comes to mind, is the example of Saint Paul. Paul persecuted the Christian Church and was instrumental in the stoning of Saint Stephen.

So by your own examples - you would have to discard all the epistles of St Paul … yes - even 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 … because *how could anyone who went around killing some Christians and putting many of them in jail “become a saint” ? *

You would also have to modify your Creed since you can’t say you beleve in the Communion of Saints because you’re denying the Church Suffering and you think you know better than God about the Church Triumphant. This is what is making it difficult for some of us to believe you’re Catholic.

Most of us would be optimistic that a murderer became a saint - because it means there is hope for us too … it means God is Love and that God is Mercy and would tell us just how great his love is for each one of us.

I’m not referring to St. Thomas More here: You don’t believe a murderer can become a saint, but this belief of yours is relative, inconsistent and selective ; and you don’t believe in Purgatory. It appears to me you’re already holding both ends of the rope in your hands - you just don’t want to tie the knot.

 

[Churchmouse]

knowledge and being “well versed” does not make a good catholic, in fact, those things without the interior life(practice of virtues, prayer, mortification, meditation, and so on) can be very dangerous to your faith, and make you feel that you know better than others or the church or even God Himself,
you may tell me that you did live that way and were good and holy, but the results speak for themselves, you did not remain obedient to God and did not trust in His church and it’s teachings, instead you left because you lacked the understanding of it’s doctrines, or at least were misguided in your understanding, and you also made the mistake of thinking you may interpret the bible however you want, in which case the devil can manipulate you…
maybe i’m wrong in some or all of this, but i can’t help wondering what causes someone to leave the church which Jesus founded, in favor of some other church which God has promised nothing for…i would never leave over something i simply don’t understand, because above all, my first concern is my obedience to God and trusting Him in all things, even if i must walk blindly, it’s no concern of mine what i don’t understand, my only concern is to know, love, and serve God…

well, i know i’m getting off topic here…so that’s all for now, i’m not trying to put you down or anything, and i’m sorry if i ever sounded arrogant, i know i can get that way sometimes, but i hope somehow i have helped you, even if not now, maybe some day, or atleast by my prayers.
ok, tc.

No harm done. However, I can tell you that I won’t be Roman Catholic again. As much as I admire your zeal, it really doesn’t mean much to me. I’ve heard all this before. No offense, but it is what is is.

CM

 

[Churchmouse]

So there are no problems with Catholic doctrine concerning marriage or contraception?

I don’t know. Is there? How is this relevant to my statements?

CM

 

[Churchmouse]

You still haven’t named anyone who St. Thomas More burned at the stake and haven’t given a source for this.

It’s not a primary source but it’s a start. The Wikipedia entry states…
“In June 1530 it was decreed that offenders were to be brought before the King’s Council, rather than being examined by their bishops, the practice hitherto. Actions taken by the Council became ever more severe. In 1531, Richard Bayfield, a graduate of the University of Cambridge and former Benedictine monk, was burned at Smithfield for distributing copies of Tyndale’s English translation of the New Testament.[8]
More persecuted perceived heretics and advocated such in his writings. In 1532 More published a six volume (half a million word) Confutation of Tyndale’s Answer in response to Tyndale’s An Answer unto Sir Thomas More’s Dialogue in which he alleged Tyndale was a traitor and a heretic and suggested a manner of tortures.[9][10] Monynahan writes: “At times More’s passion for heretic-burning runs almost out of control. “There should have been more burned by a great many than there have been within this seven year last past,” he wrote.” [11] More argued that “at every exposycyon have an hote iren thrust thorow theyr blasphemouse tongues.”[12] Moynahan makes the case that More was a powerful factor in the betrayal and death of Tyndale.[13] John Foxe (who “placed Protestant sufferings against the background of … the Antichrist”)[14] in his Book of Martyrs claimed that More had often used violence or torture while interrogating them. A more recent Evangelical author, Michael Farris, also used Foxe’s book as a reference in writing that in April 1529 a heretic, John Tewkesbury, was taken by More to his house in Chelsea and so badly tortured on the rack that he was almost unable to walk. Tewkesbury was subsequently burned at the stake.[15] More himself disputed these charges throughout his life,citation needed] swearing ‘as helpe me God’ that he had never used torture as a method of interrogation.citation needed] He claimed that the heretics he detained in his household suffered ‘neuer … so much as a fyllyppe on the forehead’.” [16]not in citation given] More later wrote in his The Confutation of Tyndale’s Answer that Twekesbury was “burned as there was neuer wretche I wene better worthy.”
By the way, I wouldn’t have commented on jgiancola the way you did. Rather than bring skepticism, just deal with his comments. It’s the latter that counts and not what you suspect. Hey, I know many Catholics who have issues such as his.

CM

 

[NeedImprovement]

URL=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed”]citation needed

] He claimed that the heretics he detained in his household suffered ‘neuer … so much as a fyllyppe on the forehead’." [16]not in citation given] More later wrote in his The Confutation of Tyndale’s Answer that Twekesbury was “burned as there was neuer wretche I wene better worthy.”
[/INDENT]By the way, I wouldn’t have commented on jgiancola the way you did. Rather than bring skepticism, just deal with his comments. It’s the latter that counts and not what you suspect. Hey, I know many Catholics who have issues such as his.

CM
Churchmouse, I’m sorry, I had to remove part of the quote because the number of characters combined with the reply exceeded the permissible limit.

Thanks for the informed post - this is what I was asking from jgiancola . It’s rather charitable of you to do the homework for a fellow member. I’m asking for substantiated arguments - that’s all. Thanks for that Churchmouse.

Saint Thomas, as you say, disputed these charges throughout his life. He isn’t able to be here to dispute them any more (no pun intended) - he can’t speak for himself and he was already martyred ; I see no need to martyr him a second time at CAF. This type of behaviour is in extremely poor taste.

As far as dealing with his comments, the gyst of the comments was that a murderer can’t become a saint. So why pray for abortionists ? Why pray for government leaders who promote/ support abortion ? Why pray for spouses who’ve committed a crime of passion?

God is all about reconciliation: Have a look at the relationship between St. Maria Goretti and Alessandro Serenelli .

mariagoretti.org/mariabio.htm

I’m afraid that I have a very busy apostolate Sunday with palliative and long-term care people so I have to cut this short. Please Churchmouse feel free to comment but I won’t be able to reply until tomorrow (I’m lucky if I get home by 11:00 pm tonight). My best friend is a Baptist who moved here from Nashville quite a while back. I have no issues there.

I can tell you that my response in that post was measured. We get our fair share of troll droppings at CAF, I don’t believe in ordering any extra helpings.

You’re right. I know a lot of Catholics who have issues with the faith too. Most of us probably have at least one area of our faith where we have to struggle. However I think you may wish to, within the context of the post you’re defending, re-examine its tone and the tone of the next post by the same member. It doesn’t appear to be someone struggling with giving their assent of faith to dogma, it looks more to me like defiance.

Deny Purgatory and you deny the sacrament of Reconciliation - it’s that simple. I didn’t bring skepticism to the thread, the posters own comments did. You need to read between the lines.

One ends up denying a lot of other things as well, such as the integrity of other saints - Saint Faustina in particular comes to mind. From day 9 of the Novena to the Divine Mercy:
ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/novena.htm#8

Eighth Day

“Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory,
and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.”

You see Churchmouse (may I say friend ?) Purgatory is no laughing matter . When someone attacks the dogma of Purgatory, it is not so much the dogma I’m interested in defending , I abhor the idea of someone robbing these souls, who are no longer able to pray for themselves of potential prayers which could hasten their release into the arms of a God who longs so much to hold them and for them who long so much to be held by Him.

If you want to dissuade others from praying for the souls in Purgatory and rob them of these potential treasures , please consider doing it elsewhere.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Churchmouse, I’m sorry, I had to remove part of the quote because the number of characters combined with the reply exceeded the permissible limit.

Thanks for the informed post - this is what I was asking from jgiancola . It’s rather charitable of you to do the homework for a fellow member. I’m asking for substantiated arguments - that’s all. Thanks for that Churchmouse.

Saint Thomas, as you say, disputed these charges throughout his life. He isn’t able to be here to dispute them any more (no pun intended) - he can’t speak for himself and he was already martyred ; I see no need to martyr him a second time at CAF. This type of behaviour is in extremely poor taste.

As far as dealing with his comments, the gyst of the comments was that a murderer can’t become a saint. So why pray for abortionists ? Why pray for government leaders who promote/ support abortion ? Why pray for spouses who’ve committed a crime of passion?

God is all about reconciliation: Have a look at the relationship between St. Maria Goretti and Alessandro Serenelli .

mariagoretti.org/mariabio.htm

I’m afraid that I have a very busy apostolate Sunday with palliative and long-term care people so I have to cut this short. Please Churchmouse feel free to comment but I won’t be able to reply until tomorrow (I’m lucky if I get home by 11:00 pm tonight). My best friend is a Baptist who moved here from Nashville quite a while back. I have no issues there.

I can tell you that my response in that post was measured. We get our fair share of troll droppings at CAF, I don’t believe in ordering an extra helping.

You’re right. I know a lot of Catholics who have issues with the faith too. Most of us probably have at least one area of our faith where we have to struggle. However I think you may wish to, within the context of the post you’re defending, re-examine its tone and the tone of the next post by the same member. It doesn’t appear to be someone struggling with giving their assent of faith to dogma, it looks more to me like defiance.

Deny Purgatory and you deny the sacrament of Reconciliation - it’s that simple. I didn’t bring skepticism to the thread, the posters own comments did. You need to read between the lines.

One ends up denying a lot of other things as well, such as the integrity of other saints - Saint Faustina in particular comes to mind. From day 9 of the Novena to the Divine Mercy:
ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/novena.htm#8

Eighth Day

“Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory,
and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.”

You see Churchmouse (may I say friend ?) Purgatory is no laughing matter . When someone attacks the dogma of Purgatory, it is not so much the dogma I’m interested in defending , I abhor the idea of someone robbing these souls, who are no longer able to pray for themselves of potential prayers which could hasten their release into the arms of a God who longs so much to hold them and for them who long so much to be held by Him.

If you want to dissuade others from praying for the souls in Purgatory and rob them of these treasures , please consider doing it elsewhere.

 

[mark_a]

I don’t know. Is there? How is this relevant to my statements?

CM

This is what you wrote:

Originally Posted by Churchmouse forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Asides from my issues with purgatory, I was a pretty good Catholic, well versed in the faith. My issues wasn’t with liturgy but with doctrine.

Obviously you have a problem with the purgatory doctrine.

Do you have any problems with Catholic moral doctrines such as marriage or contraception?

 

[Churchmouse]

This is what you wrote:

Obviously you have a problem with the purgatory doctrine.

Do you have any problems with Catholic moral doctrines such as marriage or contraception?

Well, it was a fleeting statement at that (there was a context around it). Because I don’t want to invite red herrings, let’s stick with purgatory, shall we?

CM

 

[Churchmouse]

Churchmouse, I’m sorry, I had to remove part of the quote because the number of characters combined with the reply exceeded the permissible limit.

Understood. I can relate.

Thanks for the informed post - this is what I was asking from jgiancola . It’s rather charitable of you to do the homework for a fellow member. I’m asking for substantiated arguments - that’s all. Thanks for that Churchmouse.

Saint Thomas, as you say, disputed these charges throughout his life. He isn’t able to be here to dispute them any more (no pun intended) - he can’t speak for himself and he was already martyred ; I see no need to martyr him a second time at CAF. This type of behaviour is in extremely poor taste.

Well, my only intent was to give you something to go on. Although it isn’t a prima facie source, it may lead to some.

As far as dealing with his comments, the gyst of the comments was that a murderer can’t become a saint. So why pray for abortionists ? Why pray for government leaders who promote/ support abortion ? Why pray for spouses who’ve committed a crime of passion?

I can’t speak for jgiancola, but then again, I can’t speak for Thomas More. Paul persecuted the church, saw the risen Christ on Damascus Road, repented of his sins, and you know the rest of the story. Either he repented and was saved or he was a murderer. We just don’t know.

God is all about reconciliation: Have a look at the relationship between St. Maria Goretti and Alessandro Serenelli .

mariagoretti.org/mariabio.htm

Well, this would go back to the theme of the thread. Can there be any reconciliation in the afterlife via purgatory? First there must be a purgatory, of which I don’t believe.

I’m afraid that I have a very busy apostolate Sunday with palliative and long-term care people so I have to cut this short. Please Churchmouse feel free to comment but I won’t be able to reply until tomorrow (I’m lucky if I get home by 11:00 pm tonight). My best friend is a Baptist who moved here from Nashville quite a while back. I have no issues there.

If you feel there is a response than take your time. There are no time restraints, lest the Lord comes

I can tell you that my response in that post was measured. We get our fair share of troll droppings at CAF, I don’t believe in ordering any extra helpings.

Understood.

You’re right. I know a lot of Catholics who have issues with the faith too. Most of us probably have at least one area of our faith where we have to struggle. However I think you may wish to, within the context of the post you’re defending, re-examine its tone and the tone of the next post by the same member. It doesn’t appear to be someone struggling with giving their assent of faith to dogma, it looks more to me like defiance.

I understand that as well, but if you’ve been around the Catholics I’ve known, they are very much Catholic but can be deemed as defiant as well.

Deny Purgatory and you deny the sacrament of Reconciliation - it’s that simple. I didn’t bring skepticism to the thread, the posters own comments did. You need to read between the lines.

I assume you assert this with Catholics in mind. I, personally, do not see how reconciliation demands a purgatory.

One ends up denying a lot of other things as well, such as the integrity of other saints - Saint Faustina in particular comes to mind. From day 9 of the Novena to the Divine Mercy:
ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/novena.htm#8

Eighth Day

“Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory,
and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.”

Strictly a Catholic standpoint.

You see Churchmouse (may I say friend ?)

Yes, you may

Purgatory is no laughing matter . When someone attacks the dogma of Purgatory, it is not so much the dogma I’m interested in defending , I abhor the idea of someone robbing these souls, who are no longer able to pray for themselves of potential prayers which could hasten their release into the arms of a God who longs so much to hold them and for them who long so much to be held by Him.

Well, again, I come from the perspective that purgatory is non-existent. If a Catholic denies purgatory, I would welcome it, thus I wouldn’t see it as denying souls of anything.

If you want to dissuade others from praying for the souls in Purgatory and rob them of these potential treasures , please consider doing it elsewhere.

Hopefully, you’ll understand that I’m here for the purpose of discussion and not for the purpose of dissuading. After all, if God is merciful and doesn’t demand satisfaction for the stains of sin via the pure and holy sacrifice of Christ, that is good news, yes? Thus, you can see why I deny purgatory and why I see that as a good thing.

CM

 

[mark_a]

Well, it was a fleeting statement at that (there was a context around it). Because I don’t want to invite red herrings, let’s stick with purgatory, shall we?

CM

okay.

 

[mdifrancesco]

Why must this topic be so complicated? We could spend much time arguing doctrinal differences, however, I believe God can defend Himself in His Word…
ATONEMENT. Jesus’s blood was the all sufficient sacrifice for ALL sins (including “lesser sins”).
John 1:7
“but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.”
To add anything or subtract anything from that nullifies the grace of God:
Galatians 2:21
“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
In other words… if we have to enter “purgatory” to eliminate sins, we are saying Christ’s blood was not sufficient. If you belong to Christ, when you die, you go home directly to be with the Lord (no stop offs in purgatory along the way):
2 Corinthians 5:8
“we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”
If you want another reference, what about the thief on the cross… He acknowledged Jesus as Lord and Jesus said:
Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, TODAY you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
A simplistic view of the atonement is like this… if you have a camera and you place a filter on the camera lens (lets say - RED), the only color you WON’T see is RED. It is the same principle: When we are covered in the blood of Jesus, all God sees is His Son’s righteousness, and we are accepted AS IS:
Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, and let us reason together,“Says the LORD,” Though your sins are as SCARLET,They will be as white as snow;Though they are RED like CRIMSON,They will be like wool.
I believe many people are in distress because of this issue and it needs to be put to rest. Jesus HATED religion because it put people in bondage and kept them from worshipping Him through “doctrines of men”. Jesus came to give us RELATIONSHIP with Him. To bring us back to HIM. If I can’t rest in Christ’s love and promise to forgive ALL my sins, how can I have relationship with HIM? I would be following Him out of fear (and fear is not from God).

 

[mdifrancesco]

Understood. I can relate.

Well, my only intent was to give you something to go on. Although it isn’t a prima facie source, it may lead to some.

I can’t speak for jgiancola, but then again, I can’t speak for Thomas More. Paul persecuted the church, saw the risen Christ on Damascus Road, repented of his sins, and you know the rest of the story. Either he repented and was saved or he was a murderer. We just don’t know.

God is all about reconciliation: Have a look at the relationship between St. Maria Goretti and Alessandro Serenelli .

mariagoretti.org/mariabio.htm

 

[NeedImprovement]

Catholic

but can be deemed as defiant as well. ]

Central to my comment is** what **was being defied. In fairness, before being moved, this thread began in a section devoted to Traditional Catholicism . It began when the OP posted the following :

Rumor has it that the Catholic Church stopped teaching the concept of Purgatory. Is this true?

This statement/question is still without essence; it has no premise - it’s founded on fluff. It’s going to remain that way until the OP can quote/cite a teaching authority of the Catholic Church who actually said the Church no longer teaches/proposes the dogma of Purgatory to be worthy of belief or to cite a half-credible source who claims the Church said it…Remarkable the thread actually got this far…
Somewhat predictably, we ended up with some members chomping at the bit to answer the question , “Do you (not) believe in the existence of Purgatory” instead.
I’m sure I’m personally (or have been) defiant about certain things myself . However, for Catholics, Purgatory is a hinge pin: Remove it and some of the other tenets of the faith will fall To attack it is to attack those other tenets as well… So…sure !!..If one walks into our yard and kicks our dog, we might get upset … especially if they keep kicking the dog just to see what the reaction will be.

Well, again, I come from the perspective that purgatory is non-existent. If a Catholic denies purgatory, I would welcome it, thus I wouldn’t see it as denying souls of anything.

You sort of inadvertently illustrate my point about the member who posted post #’s 2 and 8 – how jgiancola makes it difficult to believe there is anything much Catholic in the opinion expressed . It’s understandable that, having left the Catholic Church, from your perspective you probably wouldn’t place too much credence in the double consequence of sin nor any emphasis on the sacraments … save for Baptism , but I wouldn’t know if you still even call it a sacrament or not.

Hopefully, you’ll understand that I’m here for the purpose of discussion and not for the purpose of dissuading.

Yes, and I even apologize if you felt that comment was directed solely to you. Although you say you can’t answer for jgiancola , you did field questions which were addressed to that member (so I think we might agree you were at least straddling his turf a little). You may have suffered some collateral damage too because you walked into the line of fire… In my hastiness due to time constraints, I may not have used the best wording for that particular comment which was meant to be general, as thistle’s was in post # 12 – from the Catholic perspective of just how much the holy souls depend on our prayers.

I don’t know if we would have much success discussing this from a scriptural standpoint. Those posts and links to the Catechism and St. Francis de Sales speak eloquently to anyone open to the thought of the holy souls. Yet, commonly those who don’t believe in Purgatory have another way of interpreting the relative passages of scripture.

There are two parts of your post which I don’t understand clearly Churchmouse:

Paul persecuted the church, saw the risen Christ on Damascus Road, repented of his sins, and you know the rest of the story. Either he repented and was saved or he was a murderer. We just don't know.

…I don’t understand the either/or comparison here (maybe just your terms of classification)

and

After all, if God is merciful and doesn’t demand satisfaction for the stains of sin via the pure and holy sacrifice of Christ, that is good news, yes?

I’m not too sure what you mean by the above.

Please feel free to answer only when and if it’s convenient to you – Thanks for your patience.

 

[CatofAlexandria]

Last Sunday’s First Reading:

In the year King Uzziah died,
I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne,
with the train of his garment filling the temple.
Seraphim were stationed above.
They cried one to the other,
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts!
All the earth is filled with his glory!”
At the sound of that cry, the frame of the door shook
and the house was filled with smoke.

Then I said, “Woe is me, I am doomed!
For I am a man of unclean lips,
living among a people of unclean lips;
yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
Then one of the seraphim flew to me,
holding an ember that he had taken with tongs from the altar.

He touched my mouth with it, and said,
“See, now that this has touched your lips,
your wickedness is removed, your sin purged.”

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying,
“Whom shall I send? Who will go for us?”
“Here I am,” I said; “send me!”

Jesus forgives completely and Jesus’ love heals. But, if I were to go to heaven today (I dare say) I would not enjoy it as completely as I could, for I am still attached to things of the world. I once heard someone say that purgatory is like “detox for souls.” Heaven is perfect, indeed, and ONLY by the Grace of God will I get there. But, just as a recovering addict could not as fully appreciate a sober hike in the woods as someone who is cleansed of the drug, so too is the walk in Heaven.

This was actually one of the easiest things for me to accept when I was joining the Catholic Church. It always just made sense to me, and does not diminish an ounce of God’s saving power, but is merely an extension of His Divine Grace.