Purgatory

[Celtic_Catholic]

Rumor has it that the Catholic Church stopped teaching the concept of Purgatory. Is this true?

*I’ve never heard this rumor and I would hope it’s untrue. I’m a firm believer in Purgatory and I’m grateful that it exists.

It’s very simple if you think about it. About one percent of those who ever lived or will live are completely pure and holy enough to make it straight into Heaven without any bit of sin whatsoever upon their departure from this world. About one percent of those who ever lived or will live are completely evil and wicked enough to truly deserve the eternal torture and punishment of hell. So where does that leave the rest of us? In the middle. If Purgatory didn’t exist, we would all certainly be facing hell because who among us is pure enough to go straight into paradise? Jesus saved us from sin but we have to be cleared of all sin to enter Heaven. He gave us the opportunity for this to happen but how many people, at the moment of death, are completely totally cleared of every bit of sin? Unless someone just walked out of the Confessional or received Annoitment, how could they be totally free? That’s how Purgatory is a blessing. I look at it as a low level of Heaven because you’re destine to eternal paradise after paying your dues.

I think it’s great!

 

[mdifrancesco]

*I’ve never heard this rumor and I would hope it’s untrue. I’m a firm believer in Purgatory and I’m grateful that it exists.

It’s very simple if you think about it. About one percent of those who ever lived or will live are completely pure and holy enough to make it straight into Heaven without any bit of sin whatsoever upon their departure from this world. About one percent of those who ever lived or will live are completely evil and wicked enough to truly deserve the eternal torture and punishment of hell. So where does that leave the rest of us? In the middle. If Purgatory didn’t exist, we would all certainly be facing hell because who among us is pure enough to go straight into paradise? Jesus saved us from sin but we have to be cleared of all sin to enter Heaven. He gave us the opportunity for this to happen but how many people, at the moment of death, are completely totally cleared of every bit of sin? Unless someone just walked out of the Confessional or received Annoitment, how could they be totally free? That’s how Purgatory is a blessing. I look at it as a low level of Heaven because you’re destine to eternal paradise after paying your dues.

I think it’s great!

I’m not sure I understand your thought pattern with this:

• Jesus saved us from sin but we have to be cleared of all sin to enter Heaven. *
  John 1:7
  “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.”
  Just what sins are not capable of being covered by the blood of Jesus?

2 Corinthians 5:21
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
THAT is how we get straight into heaven (just like the thief on the cross).
If you add anything else to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, then He died in vain and none of us are saved.
Do you think He would have died to just save us from SOME of our sins?

Let me add one more verse (for those who feel the need to be purged from your sin apart from the blood of Jesus):
Thessalonians 5:9
“For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ”

 

[mdifrancesco]

I’m not sure I understand your thought pattern with this:

• Jesus saved us from sin but we have to be cleared of all sin to enter Heaven. *
  John 1:7
  “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.”
  Just what sins are not capable of being covered by the blood of Jesus?

2 Corinthians 5:21
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
THAT is how we get straight into heaven (just like the thief on the cross).
If you add anything else to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, then He died in vain and none of us are saved.
Do you think He would have died to just save us from SOME of our sins?

Let me add one more verse (for those who feel the need to be purged from your sin apart from the blood of Jesus):
Thessalonians 5:9
“For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ”

I’ve GOT to add one more… your statement ends with “you’re destined to eternal paradise after paying your dues”. That my friend is called “WORKS”. Salvation is a GIFT. You can’t buy it (with indulgences) and you can’t earn it (by paying your “dues”). Please read this:
Ephesians 2:8,9
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast”.

 

[Celtic_Catholic]

I’m not sure I understand your thought pattern with this:

• Jesus saved us from sin but we have to be cleared of all sin to enter Heaven. *
  John 1:7
  “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.”
  Just what sins are not capable of being covered by the blood of Jesus?

2 Corinthians 5:21
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
THAT is how we get straight into heaven (just like the thief on the cross).
If you add anything else to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, then He died in vain and none of us are saved.
Do you think He would have died to just save us from SOME of our sins?

Let me add one more verse (for those who feel the need to be purged from your sin apart from the blood of Jesus):
Thessalonians 5:9
“For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ”

So what you’re saying is that because Christ died to save us as long as we believe in Him, we could go out and sin, sin, sin like crazy and go straight to Heaven anyway? Because I don’t see it that way. That’s actually hypocritical. Christ dying for our sins gave us the opportunity to be saved if we so choose by our words and actions. But none of us are pure simply by believing Christ is God and died for us. How does that make someone pure? Purity comes with choices, responsibility and action or inaction. If Hitler believed in Christ, was he not then responsible for his horrible sins? Would his actions be void by saying he believed? Would he enter heaven? Even logic says that actions speak louder than words.

 

[mdifrancesco]

The apostle Paul addressed that very issue. When we say we believe, then our actions should line up with our words. You see, we are saved FOR good works (not saved BY good works). Please read below…

Romans 6:14-16
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And what do you suppose St. Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

 

[CatofAlexandria]

The apostle Paul addressed that very issue. When we say we believe, then our actions should line up with our words. You see, we are saved FOR good works (not saved BY good works). Please read below…

Romans 6:14-16
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

I agree with you. Faith and works are merely different sides of the salvation coin that we must choose to spend wisely. The coin itself is a gift from God our father, and we cannot even do good works without His loving grace. But how does this cut against the Church’s doctrine of purgatory? Suffering is not a really a ‘work’ – it’s a gift from God. And while Jesus saves us completely and from all sins, and God’s grace is sufficient, this still does not remove the attachment to sin that remains after the sin itself is gone. Read my above post about “detox for souls.” Just as the ember purged King Uzziah’s wickedness, so too will the fires of Purgatory prepare us for the heavenly banquet after Jesus has already saved us from our sins. You will never be worthy to eat at God’s table, but by his grace you will be prepared to enjoy the feast most fully, leaving behind every inclination that misses the mark.

 

[mdifrancesco]

I agree with you. Faith and works are merely different sides of the salvation coin that we must choose to spend wisely. The coin itself is a gift from God our father, and we cannot even do good works without His loving grace. But how does this cut against the Church’s doctrine of purgatory? Suffering is not a really a ‘work’ – it’s a gift from God. And while Jesus saves us completely and from all sins, and God’s grace is sufficient, this still does not remove the attachment to sin that remains after the sin itself is gone. Read my above post about “detox for souls.” Just as the ember purged King Uzziah’s wickedness, so too will the fires of Purgatory prepare us for the heavenly banquet after Jesus has already saved us from our sins. You will never be worthy to eat at God’s table, but by his grace you will be prepared to enjoy the feast most fully, leaving behind every inclination that misses the mark.

Okay… DETOX… to me detox is ridding what is left. Jesus took it ALL (read my last scripture). There is no basis for saying anything remains. If Christ’s sacrifice needed anything else, wouldn’t He make it clear upfront? Wouldn’t an omniscient God who had this plan of salvation laid out before the foundation of the world have taken that into account? Look at the verse below. He WIPES it out (that means there is nothing left) THEN He remembers it no more! How can you possibly say there is a attachment of sin that still needs to be paid for by going to purgatory?

Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake,And I will not remember your sins.

And if that doesn’t do it, how about this one?
Hebrews 10:12
“…but He, having offered ONE sacrifice for SINS for ALL TIME, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD” *He sat down because (in accordance with what He said on the cross) “It is FINISHED”

 

[CatofAlexandria]

Okay… DETOX… to me detox is ridding what is left. Jesus took it ALL (read my last scripture).

Yes. And I agree that Jesus took ALL of our sins. There’s nothing about purgatory that undermines God’s saving power. Detox is not “ridding what is left” but ridding the attachment. You’re telling me that you’re not still attached to sin, even though Jesus has forgiven you and wiped out all of your sin?

There is no basis for saying anything remains.If Christ’s sacrifice needed anything else, wouldn’t He make it clear upfront? Wouldn’t an omniscient God who had this plan of salvation laid out before the foundation of the world have taken that into account?

God is very clear that we participate in our own salvation through our own free will. We are, after all, made in his likeness. But it is only though His grace that we participate.

Look at the verse below. He WIPES it out (that means there is nothing left) THEN He remembers it no more! How can you possibly say there is a attachment of sin that still needs to be paid for by going to purgatory?

Again, you’re misunderstanding me. **Nothing is paid for in purgatory. Everything is paid for on the cross.
**
Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake,And I will not remember your sins.

AMEN. Jesus doesn’t remember our sins. However, that doesn’t mean the sin still doesn’t affect us. Think about your own struggles with sin in your life. Even though you know Jesus has forgiven you (completely) for sins past, you experience that the attachment remains. Through constant prayer and self-sacrifice, however, you are brought closer to Christ and the longing for sin is slowly substituted with a longing for Christ. Prayer is hard at first. It’s hard to enjoy Christ when you’re still yearning to sin. You experience in life, however, that through His Grace, you desire sin less with sacrifice and perseverance. (See James 5:11) This is seen throughout our Holy Scriptures.

And if that doesn’t do it, how about this one?
Hebrews 10:12
“…but He, having offered ONE sacrifice for SINS for ALL TIME, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD” *He sat down because (in accordance with what He said on the cross) “It is FINISHED”

Amen. But how does this address purgatory, again? You’re operating based on a fundamental misunderstanding about the doctrine itself. You’re building up a straw man. Let me ask you this: do you believe that suffering on this earth has any redemptive power? Do you believe that suffering is a gift from God, allowing us to come closer to Jesus like the thief on the cross? Does the fact that suffering brings us closer to Christ make Christ’s saving power any less earth shattering? God bless you, friend in Christ.

 

[jrgiancola]

Emerald, why do you continue to quote from the OT? The OT is not binding on Christians. Paul makes this clear in Romans. The Mosaic Law only defined sin and was a curse. It could save no one. The OT is only for Jews. The NT is for Christians. We are under the New Covenant, not the old covenant. The OT is great for historical perspective and roots, prophecy, the creation story, and the Psalms. But NOTHING in the OT is directly applicable to Christianity. I rarely read it; at mass, there is one reading and a psalm. It’s time for Christians of all faiths to stop interpreting Christianity as including the OT.

 

[jrgiancola]

As chancellor of England under Henry VIII, “Saint” Thomas More was responsible for burning Protestant heretics at the stake. More than a few were burned upon his judgment and order. Of course, once Henry abandoned the RCC, it was the Catholics who were persecuted in the same manner. More died a martyr when he opposed King Henry. He was true to the RCC; but I can not believe that anyone who, for any reason, burned heretics at the stake, that is, murdered in the name of Jesus, should be canonized.

Again, the existence of purgatory denies the full efficacy of Christ’s redemption of mankind and of His total and complete reconciliation of God Our Father to humanity. Christ paid the price for EVERY sin that was committed and that would be committed until the end of time. There is no need for any of us to suffer in purgatory as “further recompense” for sin. The New Testament Epistles are literally SATURATED with the fact of Jesus’ total and complete redemption of mankind. We are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb.

As for Galileo, the church considered him a heretic, and his findings heretical. Reading them was considered heresy. He was persecuted for his scientific discoveries. Why? Because the RCC believed that the sun revolved around the earth. A “belief” held by the church is the same as a “dogma.” The church was wrong; it’s been wrong in the past on other issues. It used to consider the six literal 24 hour day creation a dogma; it now realizes that the universe is 14 billion years old.

One of the reasons I have great love and respect for my church, the Roman Catholic Church, is because it is the only church on the face of the earth that is willing to change its dogma when new discoveries reveal a previously unknown truth. There is no shame or disrepute in doing so; not all church dogma is infallible but is, rather, made by men such as those at Trent or Nicea. God reveals truth in many ways and tailors it so that the listener is capable of understanding the revelation. The members of those early councils could not possibly have understood what we now know about the cosmos. At one time, divorce was forbidden. Whether the dogma has changed or not, the church is much more accepting of divorced Catholics, understanding such reasons as “battered women syndrome;” of course, it’s usually called an annulment, but these are much more easy to procure than they once were.

Ours is a living church which is capable of change inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[jrgiancola]

Another example is our reaching out to Moslems and Jews. Who in the 15th century would have ever believed that this would happen? Back then, we burned them all at the stake, considering the Jews the killers of Christ, and the Moslems no more than devil-worshippers.

 

[mdifrancesco]

CatofAlexandria:
Yes, we fellowship with Him in our sufferings (see scripture below)…
Philippians 3:9-11
“…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, (B)the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.”

…but I cannot follow your thought pattern on this. Let me try it this way (and PLEASE understand that this is just an anology to try to get my point across) and I use it because it actually happened in some small town - please don’t ask me where as I don’t know :
I am in court. I have been found guilty of a crime. The judge levies the judgement of the fine (penalty) for which I AM guilty of. After stating the fine to me - I say I cannot pay the fine. By law, I would go to jail until the fine is paid (or time in jail alotted for the crime). The judge, in mercy, steps out from behind the bench, pulls out his wallet and pays the fine. He looks at me and says “paid in full”. you can go… and STAY OUT OF TROUBLE FROM NOW ON!
Do you understand? The judge who levied the fine, paid the fine. There is no more retribution to be paid for it.
When we sinned against God, His Holy judgement said the penalty is death… but His Holy mercy said, BUT, I will pay that penalty Myself.
That leaves nothing to be done. No penalty to be paid. No suffering to ocur.
Does that mean we now have a license to sin? Absolutely not (I made this point earlier quoting the Apostle Paul). Our lifestyle should express our love for Him and willingness to live for Him as Jesus showed:
Luke 7:41-47
"A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
“When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?”
Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have judged correctly.”
Turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
"You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet.
"You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume.
“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

 

[mdifrancesco]

Emerald, why do you continue to quote from the OT? The OT is not binding on Christians. Paul makes this clear in Romans. The Mosaic Law only defined sin and was a curse. It could save no one. The OT is only for Jews. The NT is for Christians. We are under the New Covenant, not the old covenant. The OT is great for historical perspective and roots, prophecy, the creation story, and the Psalms. But NOTHING in the OT is directly applicable to Christianity. I rarely read it; at mass, there is one reading and a psalm. It’s time for Christians of all faiths to stop interpreting Christianity as including the OT.

I caught your response and I’m sorry to say that you are misled. The Old Testament (Old Covenant) SHOWS Jesus and SHOULD be read. I heard this once and it stuck with me: “the old testament is the new testament concealed - the new testament is the old testament revealed”. All things point to Jesus and are therefore STILL relevant and STILL God’s Word for us. Please read these two scriptures:
Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to FULFILL it.
Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, " These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

I understand what I think you mean about not being under law, but under Grace, but if it were not important, why would Jesus himself quote it?

 

[davidv]

Emerald, why do you continue to quote from the OT? The OT is not binding on Christians. Paul makes this clear in Romans. The Mosaic Law only defined sin and was a curse. It could save no one. The OT is only for Jews. The NT is for Christians. We are under the New Covenant, not the old covenant. The OT is great for historical perspective and roots, prophecy, the creation story, and the Psalms. But NOTHING in the OT is directly applicable to Christianity. I rarely read it; at mass, there is one reading and a psalm. It’s time for Christians of all faiths to stop interpreting Christianity as including the OT.

This is patently false. When were the ten commandments declared null and void?

Sin is still sin, many ways defined as sin in the OT are still sin today.

 

[mdifrancesco]

CatofAlexandria:
Answering your question about not understanding the concept of purgatory, this is what I am seeing:
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life.
Purgatory is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Where we differ is you fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution or suffering” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven… not recognizing that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.
(John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.
For believers, after death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say “away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire.” No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

 

[Vincent]

Where we differ is you fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27).

Catholic theology would go even further: Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was more than sufficient:
INDENTy suffering out of love and obedience, Christ gave more to God than was required to compensate for the offense of the whole human race. . . . Christ’s Passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race.

St. Thomas Aquinas[/INDENT]

For believers, after death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say “away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire.” No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

You left out one thing – “[A]fter [death] comes judgment. . .” (Cf. Hebrews 9:27).

Purgatory, as Pope Benedict explains it, is our personal encounter with the intersection of justice and grace at judgment (I highly recommend reviewing it in post 16 before reading further). In a word, it is our personal encounter with Christ, the Judge and Savior:

The encounter with [Christ] is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away.​

A brief examination of conscience would reveal our numerous daily compromises with evil. The compromises that we amass through life do not simply cease to matter by the fact of death. Even the slightest of these personal compromises remains an injustice before the justice of God. Yet in His justice, we find the superabundant grace of Christ. Pope Benedict explains,

In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves.​

This final purification is how Catholics would embrace the “crossbeams” of justice and grace in our judgment after death: our impurities are not inconsequential in the face of Justice Himself, but the grace of His love triumphs over all.

How would you modify what you’ve written, if you were to include judgment after death into your explanation?

 

[mdifrancesco]

Catholic theology would go even further: Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was more than sufficient:
INDENTy suffering out of love and obedience, Christ gave more to God than was required to compensate for the offense of the whole human race. . . . Christ’s Passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race.

St. Thomas Aquinas[/INDENT]

You left out one thing – “[A]fter [death] comes judgment. . .” (Cf. Hebrews 9:27).

Purgatory, as Pope Benedict explains it, is our personal encounter with the intersection of justice and grace at judgment (I highly recommend reviewing it in post 16 before reading further). In a word, it is our personal encounter with Christ, the Judge and Savior:

The encounter with [Christ] is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away.​

A brief examination of conscience would reveal our numerous daily compromises with evil. The compromises that we amass through life do not simply cease to matter by the fact of death. Even the slightest of these personal compromises remains an injustice before the justice of God. Yet in His justice, we find the superabundant grace of Christ. Pope Benedict explains,

In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves.​

This final purification is how Catholics would embrace the “crossbeams” of justice and grace in our judgment after death: our impurities are not inconsequential in the face of Justice Himself, but the grace of His love triumphs over all.

How would you modify what you’ve written, if you were to include judgment after death into your explanation?

You are Catholic and I am not. If we get into “judgment” I will be sitting here all night. That HAS to be a thread of its own…

 

[jrgiancola]

Francesco, I agree with you entirely. You’ve done a better job than I did at expressing the point I was trying to make. My sins are forgiven by Christ’s death and resurrection, not by any mortification of my body or afterlife cleansing. Thanks.

The OT law was not abolished; it was merely annulled for Christians. Christ fulfilled it; when we have faith in Him, we are considered to have also fulfilled it. No human being could ever fulfill the OT law; so all were damned, even the most pious. That’s why Paul calls it a “curse.” I consider the Ten Commandments when I examine my own conscience; it’s a good resource for discovering my sins; but there are many more sins than these ten. The New Covenant IS the fulfillment of the Old Covenant; but now that the OT is fulfilled, there is no need for it except as a reference, history, and some beautiful prayers. Christians are NOT judged by the OT law, period. Only Jews and other non-Christians are judged by it. I suggest you Read the Book of Romans LINE BY LINE, rather than just pick out a few Scriptures. St. Paul goes to GREAT lengths to explain what I have just written.

 

[davidv]

Francesco, I agree with you entirely. You’ve done a better job than I did at expressing the point I was trying to make. My sins are forgiven by Christ’s death and resurrection, not by any mortification of my body or afterlife cleansing. Thanks.

The OT law was not abolished; it was merely annulled for Christians. Christ fulfilled it; when we have faith in Him, we are considered to have also fulfilled it. No human being could ever fulfill the OT law; so all were damned, even the most pious. That’s why Paul calls it a “curse.” I consider the Ten Commandments when I examine my own conscience; it’s a good resource for discovering my sins; but there are many more sins than these ten. The New Covenant IS the fulfillment of the Old Covenant; but now that the OT is fulfilled, there is no need for it except as a reference, history, and some beautiful prayers. Christians are NOT judged by the OT law, period. Only Jews and other non-Christians are judged by it. I suggest you Read the Book of Romans LINE BY LINE, rather than just pick out a few Scriptures. St. Paul goes to GREAT lengths to explain what I have just written.

Both of your are forgetting about “restitution”.