Purgatory

[Tantum_ergo]

Since nobody appeared to notice St. Paul’s words earlier, I’d like to repeat them:

And what do you suppose St. Paul meant in
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Hmmmm?

The grace of God is the foundation.
Every man builds. . .
and on the day of the Lord it shall be revealed.
All that abides after that revelation will receive reward. That is the ‘works’ laid on the foundation of grace which is Christ.

But. . .if all the work burns in that revelation, but the foundation remains, the man ‘loses’ the work. Because the foundation is there he is saved, but he is saved ‘so as by fire’.

Sure sounds like the Catholic understanding of purgatory to me. Knowing that one is saved by grace (the foundation) and not by works lest one boast. . .and yet, as Matthew tells us, and James as well, "faith without works is dead’.

 

[mdifrancesco]

Since nobody appeared to notice St. Paul’s words earlier, I’d like to repeat them:

And what do you suppose St. Paul meant in
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Hmmmm?

The grace of God is the foundation.
Every man builds. . .
and on the day of the Lord it shall be revealed.
All that abides after that revelation will receive reward. That is the ‘works’ laid on the foundation of grace which is Christ.

But. . .if all the work burns in that revelation, but the foundation remains, the man ‘loses’ the work. Because the foundation is there he is saved, but he is saved ‘so as by fire’.

Sure sounds like the Catholic understanding of purgatory to me. Knowing that one is saved by grace (the foundation) and not by works lest one boast. . .and yet, as Matthew tells us, and James as well, "faith without works is dead’.

I’ll add one more thing because it is obvious no one is going to be moved from their stance, so all we are is sharing our thoughts at this point…

The fire will test each one’s work: When our work is tested by God, it will be revealed what kind of work it was. Just as fire will destroy wood, hay, and straw, but not gold, silver, and precious stones, so the work of some will be revealed as nothing on that Day.
It is a sobering thought: many, many people who believe they are serving God, but are doing it in an unworthy manner or with unworthy “materials” will come to find in eternity that they have, in reality, done nothing for the Lord. Some will be saved, but with a life that was wasted, and receive no crown to give to Jesus, for His glory (as in Revelation 4:10-11). He himself will be saved, yet so as through the fire: Saved, but barely saved, and saved with everything gone.
So the fire does not purify the worker, it tests their workmanship.
This is my interpretation of the meaning.

 

[mdifrancesco]

Both of your are forgetting about “restitution”.

No. I am a firm believer that when you “sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind.” (Hosea 8:7)
Also. Galatians 6:8
“The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.”
BUT we will pay that price here in this life. Not after we die. The Bible says it is appointed unto man “once to die and then the judgement”. and PLEASE lets not go into judgement

 

[NeedImprovement]

No. I am a firm believer that when you “sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind.” (Hosea 8:7)
Also. Galatians 6:8
“The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.”
BUT we will pay that price here in this life. Not after we die. The Bible says it is appointed unto man “once to die and then the judgement”. and PLEASE lets not go into judgement

It isn’t reasonable from a Catholic perspective, to ask that one "not go into judgement " if one expects to discuss Purgatory. It’s similar to asking a Catholic to type with two hands tied behind their back. Purgatory presupposes the particular judgement, in other words it is a consequence of the judgement immediately proceeding death. Judgement has everything to do with Purgatory. One cannot consider the one without the other.

 

[NeedImprovement]

It seems timely to dispense with political correctness so we may speak freely as Catholics because moral relativism is beginning to be equated with dogma in this thread. If we were so “lucky to have Pope John Paul II in our lifetime”, then why don’t you listen to him?

I’m very sorry jrgiancola, but the Holy Catholic Church I belong to , doesn’t resemble the one described in your posts quoted above .

The Church I love is defined in the Apostles’ Creed – “I believe in the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins…”

In the Church I love there is a “general agreement of theologians as to papal infallibility in canonization” oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Beatification_and_Canonization

The Church I love does not embrace heresies and doctrines which are subversive to the faith.

The Church I love has room for our Blessed Mother, particularly relative here – the title of Our Lady of Fatima, who showed the visionaries Heaven, Hell and Purgatory.

The Church I love is guided by the Holy Spirit – first and foremost through the Holy See.

The Church I love prays as She believes: Lex ordani, lex credendi., She prays”…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

She also prays the optional memorial Mass in honour of St. John Fisher, bishop, and St. Thomas More, martyrs :

OPENING PRAYER

Father, you confirm the true faith
with the crown of martyrdom.
May the prayers of St. John Fisher and St. Thomas More
give us the courage to proclaim our faith
by the witness of our lives.

Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,
Who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
One God, for ever and ever.

It has never been a good idea to try and impose limits on God’s limitless Mercy and forgiveness. Our objective as Christians is actually hoping that we don’t get what we deserve – and that goes for all of us ; or as the De Profundis says ,

If you O Lord should mark our guilt,
Lord, who would survive ?
But with you is found forgiveness,
For this we revere you.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[jrgiancola]

Faith naturally breeds good works, or at least it should. However, works alone, without faith, do not procure a place in heaven. We do not earn Heaven; it is a gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ. You cannot gain Heaven by your philanthropy alone. Jesus said to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. This implies good works done for ourselves and for our neighbor. But good works alone do not satisfy. Further, if my good works will not get me into heaven, my bad works will not keep me out. It comes down to believing and having faith in God, in His Son Jesus, in the complete redemptive power of His death and resurrection, trusting in his greatest attribute: His Divine Mercy (JP2); and just plain doing the best I can to resist temptation, although no one on earth can ever completely do that. ,

 

[NeedImprovement]

I agree with everything in the above post… nicely expressed too. I can’t agree with all that you previously said however, because though it may not be your intention, it could so easily be interpreted this way:

• Purgatory doesn’t exist.
• Saint Thomas More is not a saint; is not canonized, ergo not in Heaven.
• The only remaining possibility if he is not in Heaven and he is not in Purgatory, is that St. Thomas More is in Hell.

The last time I checked, the Holy Catholic Church had not published any list of names of those who are in Hell. Rather we appeal to God’s Mercy for the faithful departed. And it would seem a somewhat cold thing from a Catholic point of view that people would never offer any prayers for the dearly departed – especially a loved one.

@ jrgiancola :
It was good of you to leave St. Thomas More out of the commentary this time. No one is saying someone has to like a particular saint, but when we start questioning the wisdom of the Church, certain comments can be harmful. What we see in retrospect is that St. Thomas More lived in a time of madness compared to specific present day standards (although they didn’t have the madness of abortion then as we do now). Are you aware that being burnt at the stake – as a punishment for heretics, existed in England long before St. Thomas More was even born … and that this same law pervaded most of the European countries ? Saint Thomas didn’t make those laws - he was born in 1478 into a society that had already implemented them. Actually, “In England during the 18th century, death was decreed for several hundred specific offenses, mostly against property. The turning point came in that century, when the rise of a democratic political philosophy led to political struggles against the old regimes.” Encyclopaedia Brittanica, 1971,Volume 4, page 847 {Capital Punishment} ] .

Pope John Paul II, when he was a Cardinal worked hard for years to have the ban on St. Faustina’s Divine Mercy writings lifted holyspiritinteractive.net/features/divinemercy/fmiracles.asp
…Writings in her diary, such as the record of her visit to Purgatory :
“(The next night) I saw my Guardian Angel, who ordered me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames which were burning them did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls called Her the Star of the Sea. She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of that prison of suffering. ( I heard an interior voice) which said, “My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it.” Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls.”

And Jesus’ own words again to her: “My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity.”

trustandmercy.com/divinemercy/stfaustinainsights

 

[NeedImprovement]

That same pope – remember ?..

…Now John-Paul2, that’s different. Obviously the man was a saint. We were lucky to have him in our lifetime.

… yes that one …

in his October 2000 APOSTOLIC LETTER ISSUED MOTU PROPRIO
states “ …I establish and declare Saint Thomas More the heavenly Patron of Statesmen and Politicians, and I decree that he be ascribed all the liturgical honours and privileges which, according to law, belong to the Patrons of categories of people."

In the same letter, he confirms “In this context, it is helpful to turn to the example of Saint Thomas More, who distinguished himself by his constant fidelity to legitimate authority and institutions precisely in his intention to serve not power but the supreme ideal of justice. His life teaches us that government is above all an exercise of virtue. Unwavering in this rigorous moral stance, this English statesman placed his own public activity at the service of the person, especially if that person was weak or poor; he dealt with social controversies with a superb sense of fairness; he was vigorously committed to favouring and defending the family; he supported the all-round education of the young. His profound detachment from honours and wealth, his serene and joyful humility, his balanced knowledge of human nature and of the vanity of success, his certainty of judgement rooted in faith: these all gave him that confident inner strength that sustained him in adversity and in the face of death. His sanctity shone forth in his martyrdom, but it had been prepared by an entire life of work devoted to God and neighbor.

“And it was precisely in defence of the rights of conscience that the example of Thomas More shone brightly. It can be said that he demonstrated in a singular way the value of a moral conscience which is “the witness of God himself, whose voice and judgment penetrate the depths of man’s soul” (Encyclical Letter Veritatis Splendor, 58), even if, in his actions against heretics, he reflected the limits of the culture of his time.”
crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/522/St.__Thomas_More_Patron_of_Statesmen_Pope_John_Paul_II.html

Posts 21 and 16 both give texts of Popes Benedict XVI and John Paul II confirming the existence of Purgatory.

It would seem timely here to dispense with political correctness so we may be permitted to speak freely as Catholics because moral relativism was beginning to be equated with dogma in this thread. If we were so “lucky to have Pope John Paul II in our lifetime”, (and I couldn’t agree more) we’re left wondering why more people didn’t listen to him?

I’m very sorry jrgiancola, I agree with your most recent post, but the Holy Catholic Church I belong to , doesn’t too much resemble the one described in your earlier posts. Mine would look something like this:

• The Church I love is defined in the Apostles’ Creed – “I believe in the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins…”
• In the Church I love there is a “general agreement of theologians as to papal infallibility in canonization” oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Beatification_and_Canonization
• The Church I love does not embrace heresies and doctrines which are subversive to the faith. She can forgive errors, but She expects them to be corrected.
• The Church I love has plenty of room for our Blessed Mother.
• The Church I love is guided by the Holy Spirit – first and foremost through the Holy See.
• The Church I love prays as She believes: Lex ordani, lex credendi., She prays”…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

She also prays the optional memorial Mass in honour of St. John Fisher, bishop, and St. Thomas More, martyrs :

OPENING PRAYER

Father, you confirm the true faith
with the crown of martyrdom.
May the prayers of St. John Fisher and St. Thomas More
give us the courage to proclaim our faith
by the witness of our lives.

Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,
Who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
One God, for ever and ever.

It has never been a good idea to try and impose limits on God’s limitless Mercy and forgiveness. So I don’t say, anyone has to love any saint in particular, but we need to avoid transmitting any dislike we might hold for a particular saint into the hearts of others. We’re all different, and as you rightly point out, no one can earn their salvation. Even when we don’t agree, we’re still all in this thing together. Our objective as Christians is actually hoping that we don’t get what we deserve – and that goes for all of us ; or as the De Profundis says ,

If you O Lord should mark our guilt,
Lord, who would survive ?
But with you is found forgiveness,
For this we revere you.

A better way to extol God’s Mercy, rather than by words, is to personally experience His forgiveness.

 

[jrgiancola]

You write well. But I just disagree with you. Thomas may have confessed his sins and might be in Heaven at this very moment. But since we do not know this, I think it wrong to make a saint out of such a murderer. I’m not questioning or judging his SALVATION; I have no way of knowing about that. I’m questioning whether he qualifies as a SAINT. To me, JP2 is a saint; Mother Teresa is a saint; Bernadette Soubirous is a saint; Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are saints. Thomas More cannot hold a candle to any of these.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You know, the two men who were crucified with Jesus were thieves. . .but one of them repented. . .at the ‘last moment of his life’ on the cross–and Jesus said “You will be with me in paradise”.

St. Thomas More–whatever sins he may have been guilty of–and one must consider the times and the circumstances as well as making a judicial (that is, legal) decision to execute someone for the crime (the STATE crime at the time) of heresy was not necessarily the mortal sin of murder – was a martyr for the Faith at the end.

If we start to complain that because somebody did X (or even that we THINK somebody did X, because quite frankly as a historian I think, jrgiancola, with all due respect, that you are quite wrong in your imputations of St. Thomas More), and **because of that, they aren’t ‘worthy’ to be saints. . .**I think that we are putting ourselves into “God’s” position. Who are we, after all, to declare ‘against’ the Church? Who are we to declare that on our limited, fallible reading (misreading), that any given person is not only not a saint but by implication guilty of mortal sin and thus damned? I don’t think that any Catholic --indeed, any Christian–should be ‘damning’ souls to hell even by implication. We don’t even speak of Adolf Hitler as being ‘assuredly’ in hell–why then would we attempt to place a Catholic saint there?

In today’s already fragmented society I think it behooves us to be more in unity with our brothers and sisters. It’s hard enough trying to speak of the Faith to our separated brothers and sisters but when our **own Catholic brothers and sisters start to differ among themselves, it’s impossible! **That’s why I find it far more hurtful to see a fellow Catholic come out with statements that appear to (even if the person doesn’t realize or intend it so) show a ‘dissent’ with Catholic teaching. If a Protestant sees a Catholic say, “Thomas More is a saint” and then some other Catholic blast in with “No, he wasn’t, he was a wicked old murderer”. . .what do you think the Protestant is going to think about Catholicism? He will probably think: Catholics don’t know their own faith because they don’t agree with each other on a number of points. I hear two completely different things from people claiming to be Catholic --which one should I believe? And also, considering they both claim to be Catholic and yet offer completely different ‘thoughts’, why should I believe them on ANYTHING? If they differ on this, won’t they differ on everything else? (And sure enough, we have quite a few “Catholics” on these boards who seem to make it their mission to burst into a thread and ‘diss’ Catholic teachings on ANY subject). Honestly, at least we expect that a Methodist will have some different teachings from a Southern Baptist, a Quaker (Society of Friends), and a Lutheran. We **don’t expect **that two Catholics will argue over whether or not St Thomas More was a saint!!!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And now I’ll give this from the New Advent Encyclopedia as I think it is quite interesting, regarding St. Thomas More in his position as chancellor (judge) and the "heretics’. . . and then I’ll return to the topic of the thread so as not to derail:

As chancellor it was his duty to enforce the laws against heretics and, by doing so, he provoked the attacks of Protestant writers both in his own time and since. The subject need not be discussed here, but More’s attitude is patent. He agreed with the principle of the anti-heresy laws and had no hesitation in enforcing them. As he himself wrote in his “Apologia” (cap. 49) it was the vices of heretics that he hated, not their persons; and he never proceeded to extremities until he had made every effort to get those brought before him to recant. How successful he was in this is clear from the fact that only four persons suffered the supreme penalty for heresy during his whole term of office.

So. . .we are talking of four people who were executed for the State crime of heresy, after due process of law.

Anyway, back to purgatory. I stand by my earlier post from Corinthians. "Saved as through fire’. . .

You know, ‘time’ does not exist in Heaven as we know it. It is entirely possible that (while ‘thousands of years’ pass here) that ‘time’ would not even be an ‘eye blink’ in Heaven where it is an eternal ‘now’. . .so a person dying and receiving the ‘cleansing fire’ of purgatory might have it be ‘instantaneous’ to them yet during that ‘instant’ ‘time’ here on earth might be days, weeks, months or years.

 

[jrgiancola]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time (the promulgation of the Gospel) observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”

THIS is the true teaching of the RCC regarding the OT law, unless you want to disagree with an ex cathedra doctrine.

 

[jrgiancola]

Being a Catholic does not mean that we are obligated to blindly give up our reason or ignore our own private, personal inspirations from the Holy Spirit. I maintain that our church, which I DO love dearly, has made mistakes in the past. In fact, about 30 or 40 years ago, the church examined its list of saints and “shortened the list” for a variety of reasons. I repeat, one thing I particularly love about our church is that it is not afraid to correct past errors, such as when it refuted the teaching that Galileo was wrong. Not all doctrine is ex cathedra; some is, unfortunately, “tainted” by men who reach inaccurate conclusions based upon the limited knowledge available during their lifetime or simply by being overzealous in their beliefs. Again, I’m NOT judging whether More repented and was forgiven and is now, in fact, in Heaven with God. If he did repent and confess, he deserves forgiveness and salvation; “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” I’m just saying that we cannot know whether this occurred, and it seems to me that people who behaved in such a fashion should not be assumed to be saints.

 

[NeedImprovement]

… Thomas may have confessed his sins and might be in Heaven at this very moment. But since we do not know this, I think it wrong to make a saint out of such a murderer. I’m not questioning or judging his SALVATION; I have no way of knowing about that. I’m questioning whether he qualifies as a SAINT. To me, JP2 is a saint; Mother Teresa is a saint; Bernadette Soubirous is a saint; Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are saints. Thomas More cannot hold a candle to any of these.

Your use of the word “saint” doesn’t fit with the Catholic definition of Canonization…a link had been provided for you previously

In fact, when a saint is canonized it is chiefly a proclamation stating the Saint enjoys the beatific vision - that the Saint is in Heaven. That is what “qualifies” one as a Saint from the Catholic perspective. Deny someone is a Saint and you deny they are in Heaven… you deny the salvation which the Church says they have attained with certitude.

Furthermore, regarding martyrs, from that same linked article "… sanctity does not necessarily imply the exercise of heroic virtue, since one who had not hitherto practiced heroic virtue would, by the one transient heroic act in which he yielded up his life for Christ, have justly deserved to be considered a saint. This view seems all the more certain if we reflect that all the arguments of theologians for papal infallibility in the canonization of saints are based on the fact that on such occasions the popes believe and assert that the decision which they publish is infallible (Pesch, Prael. Dogm., I, 552). "

To augment what Tantum ergo just posted from Catholic encyclopedia

So. . .we are talking of four people who were executed for the State crime of heresy, after due process of law.

EWTN has a nice piece on St. Thomas More here
ewtn.com/library/MARY/THOMASMO.htm
specifying that,

“*As Chancellor it was his duty to administer the civil laws of England, which prescribed the death penalty for obstinate heretics. Nevertheless, during his term of office only four, it seems, were burned, and these were relapsed persons, whom he had no power to reprieve.

Actually, it was heresy and not the heretics that More tried to get rid of.”*
That above-linked article gives a little window into some of St. Thomas More’s devotions and ways he lived his faith – a nice thought provoking read.

Anyone wishing to delve into a true account of the life of Saint Thomas More can have a look at the biography written by his son-in-law William Roper. A slight adjustment is needed to understand the idioms of that era, but it really sheds some light on things. William Roper lived with St. Thomas and was educated at his household :
fordham.edu/halsall/mod/16Croper-more.html

… In fact, about 30 or 40 years ago, the church examined its list of saints and “shortened the list” for a variety of reasons…

St. Thomas More was canonized in 1935 , by due process. His name and memorial remains on the liturgical calendar arm in arm with that of St. John Fisher . As previously stated, additional honours were conferred on him when, in October 2000, his holiness Pope John Paul II officially proclaimed, “ I declare Saint Thomas More the heavenly Patron of Statesmen and Politicians, and I decree that he be ascribed all the liturgical honours and privileges which, according to law, belong to the Patrons of categories of people."

He’s in Heaven and he’s still “on the list” with privileges to boot – so what’s your point ?

…Not all doctrine is ex cathedra;…

Purgatory **is **doctrine and it is ex cathedra :

*Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:
“Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful” (Denzinger, “Enchiridon”, 983).
*newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

 

[NeedImprovement]

Emerald, why do you continue to quote from the OT? The OT is not binding on Christians. Paul makes this clear in Romans. The Mosaic Law only defined sin and was a curse. It could save no one. The OT is only for Jews. The NT is for Christians. We are under the New Covenant, not the old covenant. The OT is great for historical perspective and roots, prophecy, the creation story, and the Psalms. But NOTHING in the OT is directly applicable to Christianity. I rarely read it; at mass, there is one reading and a psalm. It’s time for Christians of all faiths to stop interpreting Christianity as including the OT.

Along with davidv’s post # 54 referring you to the Ten Commandments , I would add in reply that you are hereby advocating that all priests and deacons (and anyone else who prays it) should give up praying their breviary – the prayer of the Church.

To date, you are the first Catholic I’ve ever heard say they “pray to the dead” ; this is commonly the terminology employed by Protestants who wish to confront Catholics saying they “pray to the Saints” rather than that we ask their intercession.

Forgive me jrgiancola , but I fail to see too much in support of the Church in your posts on this particular thread. My impression is that first of all, you never provide any substantiation or links to your claims. How can anyone verify your sources ? How do you think it affects your credibility ? For example :

… God save us from lunatic, fanatic heretic hunters.

The only place I recall seeing the term “heretic hunters” was in an essay written by critic
James Wood. Wood, supposing himself to be a fair critic, writes that essay with a specific anti-Catholic and anti- St. Thomas More bent. Is that the type of mindset you wish to promote at CAF ?

You don’t appear to ascribe too much importance to one remaining faithful to the Magisterium unless it be convenient to your personal tastes ; rather ironic that the very Saint you are fixated in discrediting was martyred for his unflinching faithfulness to the Magisterium.

Yet it would appear necessary for you to repeat that the Church has committed errors.

My own personal opinion (relative to your posts on this thread) is that you obscure the truth using generalized disparagements.

These type of comments …

… Another example is the sainthood of Thomas More. The man burned Protestants at the stake. I know he was a martyr also, but it seems to me that he got what he deserved. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. How can anyone who burned others at the stake become a saint? Now John-Paul2, that’s different. Obviously the man was a saint. We were lucky to have him in our lifetime.

…, I think it wrong to make a saint out of such a murderer…;To me, JP2 is a saint; Mother Teresa is a saint; Bernadette Soubirous is a saint; Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are saints. Thomas More cannot hold a candle to any of these.

…serve no good purpose . They actually do a disservice to the very Saints you wish to promote. … Don’t take it from me – take it from a holy old monk’s words from a timeless classic written even before St. Thomas More’s time :

THOMAS A KEMPIS; THE IMITATION OF CHRIST
Chapter 95
How we may not Inquire into the Unsearchable Judgements of God

"CHRIST. My son, avoid controversy over high things and the judgements of God. Do not argue why this person is so forsaken while another is endowed with great graces; or why one person is so grievously afflicted, while another is so richly rewarded. These things are above human understanding, and neither reasoning nor argument is competent to explain the judgements of God. Therefore, when the enemy suggests these things to your mind, or when inquisitive people ask about them, answer with the prophet, You are just, 0 Lord, and Your judgements are right. ( Ps. 119:137) My judgements are to be respected, not discussed, for they are beyond the comprehension of the human mind. (Rom.11:33) Do not dispute over the merits of the Saints, which is the holier, or which the greater in the Kingdom of Heaven. This often breeds strife and unprofitable arguments, (2 Tim.2:23) feeding pride and empty boasting, from which in turn spring envy and dissension, while one proudly seeks to praise this Saint, and another that. Now, this desire to know and explore such matters is unprofitable, and is displeasing to the Saints themselves. I am not the God of dissension, but of peace’, (I Cor.14:33) and My peace is founded on humility, not on self-exaltation.
Some, in their ardent enthusiasm, profess a greater devotion to one Saint than to another; but this devotion isof human origin, not divine. I am He who made all the Saints ; I gave them grace ; I endowed them with glory. I know the merits of each ; I went before them with My blessings. (Ps. 21:3) I foreknew my loved ones before time began (Rom.8:29) I chose them out of the world ;(John 15:19) they did not first choose Me. I called them by grace ; (Gal. 1:15) I drew them by mercy. I was their guide in many a temptation; I poured forth on them wonderful consolations. I gave them perseverance, and I crowned their patience.

cont…

 

[NeedImprovement]

IMITATION OF CHRIST, Chapter 95 continued…

I know them, the first and the last, and enfold them all in My boundless love. I am to be praised in all My Saints. I am to be blessed above all things, and to be honoured in each of these, whom I have predestinated and raised to such glory with no previous merits of their own. Anyone, therefore, who disparages one of the least(Matt. 18:10) of My Saints, in no way adds to the glory of a greater by so doing, for small and great alike are My creation . (Wisd. 7:7) And any who speaks lightly of any of the Saints, speaks lightly both of Myself and of all the company of Heaven. All are one in the bond of charity; their thoughts and aspirations are one, and all love each other as one.( John 17:21)

But this is higher still, that they love Me more than themselves and their own merits. Caught up out of themselves, and carried beyond love of self, they are wholly engaged in loving me, in whom they rest in peace and joy. Nothing can distract or dismay them, for they are full of the eternal Truth, and burn with the fire of unquenchable charity. Let base and worldly men therefore refrain from dispute about the state of the Saints, for. such men care for nothing but their own gratification. In their own interest, they exaggerate or belittle facts, and pay no regard to the eternal Truth. In the case of many, it is through ignorance, especially in those who are but little enlightened, and are seldom capable of loving anyone with a perfect and spiritual love. Such people are still strongly attracted to one person or another by natural affection and human friendship; and as they behave towards men on earth, so do they imagine that they can regard the Saints in Heaven. But the thoughts of imperfect men are immeasurably below those implanted in the enlightened by the revelations of God.

Beware, therefore, My son, of being over curious about matters beyond your knowledge; let your aim and object rather be to be counted even among the least in the Kingdom of God. Even if a man could know who is the holiest and greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven, of what use could this knowledge be, unless it led him to humble himself before Me, and rise up to praise My Name with increased devotion? It is far more acceptable to God that a man consider the enormity of his own sins, the smallness of his virtue, and how far he is from the perfection of the Saints, than that he should dispute who is the greater or lesser among them. It is better to supplicate the Saints with devout prayer and sorrow, and to implore their glorious prayers, than to search into their secrets with vain curiosity.
The Saints enjoy a good and perfect contentment; ah, if only men could be content, and control their empty talk! The Saints do not boast of their own merits ; they ascribe no goodness to themselves, but all to Me, for I gave them everything out of My boundless
love. They are filled by so deep a love for God, and with so overflowing a joy, that nothing is wanting to their glory, nor can anything be lacking in their happiness. The higher they stand in glory, the more humble are the Saints in themselves, and the closer they are to Me, and better loved. Thus you have the scripture, `They cast down their crowns before God, and fell on their faces before the Lamb ; and they adored Him who lives for ever and ever. (Rev. 4:10)"

worldinvisible.com/library/akempis/imitation/chapter%2095.htm

I still fail to see how you could possibly think that dragging St. Thomas More over the coals will somehow lend credence to your erroneous claim that Purgatory does not exist. This is always heresy.

From the heresy link provided by Tantum ergo …

“Heresy is a sin because of its nature it is destructive of the virtue of Christian faith. Its malice is to be measured therefore by the excellence of the good gift of which it deprives the soul.”

Lent begins today. Once again I would implore everyone with an incomplete understanding of the subject, please , don’t rob the holy souls in Purgatory of our prayers.

 

[jrgiancola]

Along with davidv’s post # 54 referring you to the Ten Commandments , I would add in reply that you are hereby advocating that all priests and deacons (and anyone else who prays it) should give up praying their breviary – the prayer of the Church.

To date, you are the first Catholic I’ve ever heard say they “pray to the dead” ; this is commonly the terminology employed by Protestants who wish to confront Catholics saying they “pray to the Saints” rather than that we ask their intercession.

Forgive me jrgiancola , but I fail to see too much in support of the Church in your posts on this particular thread. My impression is that first of all, you never provide any substantiation or links to your claims. How can anyone verify your sources ? How do you think it affects your credibility ? For example :

I just provided the preceding quote from Pope Eugene IV regarding the OT law. You must have missed it. Scroll back a few postings.

The only place I recall seeing the term “heretic hunters” was in an essay written by critic
James Wood. Wood, supposing himself to be a fair critic, writes that essay with a specific anti-Catholic and anti- St. Thomas More bent. Is that the type of mindset you wish to promote at CAF ?

You don’t appear to ascribe too much importance to one remaining faithful to the Magisterium unless it be convenient to your personal tastes ; rather ironic that the very Saint you are fixated in discrediting was martyred for his unflinching faithfulness to the Magisterium.

Yet it would appear necessary for you to repeat that the Church has committed errors.

My own personal opinion (relative to your posts on this thread) is that you obscure the truth using generalized disparagements.

These type of comments …

…serve no good purpose . They actually do a disservice to the very Saints you wish to promote. … Don’t take it from me – take it from a holy old monk’s words from a timeless classic written even before St. Thomas More’s time :

THOMAS A KEMPIS; THE IMITATION OF CHRIST
Chapter 95
How we may not Inquire into the Unsearchable Judgements of God

"CHRIST. My son, avoid controversy over high things and the judgements of God. Do not argue why this person is so forsaken while another is endowed with great graces; or why one person is so grievously afflicted, while another is so richly rewarded. These things are above human understanding, and neither reasoning nor argument is competent to explain the judgements of God. Therefore, when the enemy suggests these things to your mind, or when inquisitive people ask about them, answer with the prophet, You are just, 0 Lord, and Your judgements are right. ( Ps. 119:137) My judgements are to be respected, not discussed, for they are beyond the comprehension of the human mind. (Rom.11:33) Do not dispute over the merits of the Saints, which is the holier, or which the greater in the Kingdom of Heaven. This often breeds strife and unprofitable arguments, (2 Tim.2:23) feeding pride and empty boasting, from which in turn spring envy and dissension, while one proudly seeks to praise this Saint, and another that. Now, this desire to know and explore such matters is unprofitable, and is displeasing to the Saints themselves. I am not the God of dissension, but of peace’, (I Cor.14:33) and My peace is founded on humility, not on self-exaltation.
Some, in their ardent enthusiasm, profess a greater devotion to one Saint than to another; but this devotion isof human origin, not divine. I am He who made all the Saints ; I gave them grace ; I endowed them with glory. I know the merits of each ; I went before them with My blessings. (Ps. 21:3) I foreknew my loved ones before time began (Rom.8:29) I chose them out of the world ;(John 15:19) they did not first choose Me. I called them by grace ; (Gal. 1:15) I drew them by mercy. I was their guide in many a temptation; I poured forth on them wonderful consolations. I gave them perseverance, and I crowned their patience.

cont…

 

[jrgiancola]

NeedImprovement, I provided the quote from Pope Eugene IV a few postings back. You must have missed it. I don’t know how to post links. I’m not that computer savvy. I’ve already said that I disagree with some of the church’s teachings, and I’ve explained my reasons, also a few posts back. I still believe the RCC is the only true church.

 

[jrgiancola]

Besides, who stands to benefit more from the belief that Christians are still under the OT law? Who stands to benefit more by convincing Christians that we are still judged by the Mosaic law? Who stands to benefit more by making Christians believe that Christ’s redemptive acts are not fully salvific? Only satan stands to benefit. No human being can ever satisfy the OT law; only Christ could and did satisfy it. If we Christians start believing that we have to satisfy the OT law, then we have to conclude that we are all damned, since none of us can ever be found worthy when judged by it. Only Christianity provides God’s salvation of mankind. We are saved by the grace and mercy of God, not because we deserve it, but because we believe in the Holy Trinity, in Jesus’ gift of redemption, and in God’s mercy which JPII called God’s greatest attribute. Does this mean we can just sin all we want? Of course not. Paul explains all this in Romans. Read the book of Romans. This is not jrgiancola’s doctrine; it is Paul’s doctrine. You people sometimes quote a lot of church fathers, and doctrines, etc., but fail to quote the Bible itself. Any doctrine that disagrees with what Jesus, and then Paul, preached is not correctly interpreted. Simple as that. The Bible is the final source of our beliefs. I refuse to accept a hybrid “Judeo-Christian” religion; Christianity is not Judaism, and the laws of Judaism are absolutely not binding on us. Is the law still in existence? Of course. But it is not binding on Christians. If a man and woman receive an annulment from the RCC, the laws of marriage are still in effect, they are not abolished; however they no longer apply to that man and woman. It’s the same principle. I am not a Jew. I am a Christian. A Catholic Christian to boot. Christ is my law, and my mercy, and my love. Christ’s father is my father. Moses has nothing to do with my salvation and never will.

 

[jrgiancola]

Romans:

3:21-26. But now the justice of God has been manifested APART FROM THE LAW; … all men are now undeservedly justified by the gift of God, through the redemption wrought in Christ Jesus. Through his blood, God made him the means of expiation for all who believe.

5:20-21 The law came in order to increase offenses; but despite the increase of sin, grace has far surpassed it, so that, as sin reigned through death, grace may reign by way of justice leading to eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

7:6 Now WE HAVE BEEN RELEASED FROM THE LAW-for we have died to what bound us- and we serve in the new spirit, not the ANTIQUATED LETTER.

Galatians:

3: 10-14 ALL WHO DEPEND ON OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW, ON THE OTHER HAND, ARE UNDER A CURSE. It is written, “Cursed is he who does not abide by everything written in the book of the law and carry it out.” It should be obvious that no one is justified in God’s sight by the law, for “the just man shall live by faith.” … CHRIST HAS DELIVERED US FROM THE POWER OF THE LAW’S CURSE BY HIMSELF BECOMING A CURSE FOR US, AS IT IS WRITTEN: “ACCURSED IS ANYONE WHO IS HANGED ON A TREE.”

3: 19-22 What is the relevance of the law, in such case? It was given in view of transgressions and promulgated by angels, at the hands of a mediator. IT WAS TO BE VALID ONLY UNTIL THAT DESCENDANT OR OFFSPRING CAME TO WHOM THE PROMISE HAD BEEN GIVEN. …Scripture has locked all things in under the constraint of sin. Why? So that the promise might be fulfilled in those who believe, in consequence of faith in Jesus Christ.

3: 23-29 Before faith came, we were under the constraint of the law, locked in until the faith that was coming should be revealed. In other words, the law was our monitor UNTIL CHRIST CAME TO BRING ABOUT OUR JUSTIFICATION THROUGH FAITH. BUT NOW THAT FAITH IS HERE, WE ARE NO LONGER IN THE MONITOR’S CHARGE.

Paul preaches this doctrine all through the New Testament. Christianity is not a union of Judaism and the teachings of Christ. There are so many other references to this fact in the Epistles that I cannot believe any Christian still considers him or herself bound by the OT law. The Apostles repudiated early claims that Christians also had to follow the Mosaic law. Peter declared all foods eatable; Paul declared circumcision of the flesh to have no value at all.

Of course, it goes without saying, that Christ commanded special works from us also; works of love and mercy to our fellow man. When one truly knows the love of Christ, and believes that by his or her faith in Christ salvation is obtained, the works just flow naturally because that newly created man or woman is so full of the love of God that he or she cannot restrain from showing love and mercy to all.

READ THE BIBLE PEOPLE.