Purgatory

[Shin]

Purgatory is a dogma of the Church, it is a required belief for all Catholics. That priest needs to know this.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Funny thing today on the way out from the parish basement hall, there is a bookshelf there with a statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus on top, and one book caught my eye. PURGATORY, it read. Two things you’d thought you wouldn’t see in an Eastern Catholic parish

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother ConstantineTG,

Wow this is beautiful. It changes my viewpoint entirely. Thanks!

By this, do you mean that you can see that Orthodox theology is not necessarily opposed to the dogma of Purgatory?

Blessings

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The articles of the Union of Brest in 1596 were based on those of the Council of Florence. That Council decreed that the Greeks coming into union with Rome were not required to believe in a “purgatorial fire” but only in a “purgatory.”

(During that Council, Latin scholasticism vented its perspectives fully and the Greeks were asked such questions as, “Of what substance is the fire of Hell?” To which one Greek replied, “You will definitely find that out when you arrive there!”

The point is that “purgatory” is a Latin term and it points to a “faith reality” (is that a good term?) that is shared by the East i.e. that those who did not die in sin that brings eternal death are not united with God and Christ immediately but must slowly be “loosed from their sins” by means of the Divine Liturgy and the prayers of the Church.

How this happens, where, for how long etc. - the East just doesn’t get itself involved in such questions as we cannot know.

BTW, “indulgences” were actually used in the Greek Church as St Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain does refer to them. In western Ukraine, the practice of indulgenced pilgrimages to holy Icons was and is widespread in Orthodox parishes, particularly in Orthodox parishes there in the 19th century, as illustrated copiously by Prof. Poselianin in his encyclopedic work, “Bogomater” or the “Mother of God” where he names miraculous icons and their locale where such Orthodox pilgrimages were held called “otpusty.”

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Purgatory is a dogma of the Church, it is a required belief for all Catholics. That priest needs to know this.

If that priest denies that prayer for the dead should be made and that it helps bring the reposed souls into union with God and Christ - then that is a serious infraction against the Faith of the Church, both East and West.

Alex

 

[ciero]

I recently had a talk with my priest-friend about Purgatory. When I was out of town, at that mass the priest said there was no Purgatory. I contacted my priest friend to ask him because I pray A LOT for the poor souls, especially those who had no family that would pray for them.
Since we are all sinners, though we try to stay in the state of grace, when death comes there must be some purifying of the soul before heaven because God cannot be in the presence of sin, even venial sin. God is just.
Now, I work in the heath field. I have seen all kinds of deaths. I have seen demonic deaths! Believe me, you dont want to see this.
I have seen people who have died and returned to life.
There is no doubt in my mind that not only is there life after this death (anyone who doesn’t believe that probably isn’t on this forum), but that because God is just and merciful He gives us every opportunity possible to join Him.
There was a dear friend, from the most religious family I know, whose eldest son died by ‘an act of God’. There was once a terrible storm and his mother cried out to God: You took one, are you trying to take another? Lightning struck the post in front of her house.
In her sobs her son appeared to her and said: Mom, dont worry about me, I’m fine. I’m inone place and in a little while things will be lots better for me.

Spoken like a good Roman Catholic!

I know this woman well. She is totally sane, she has a strong faith, and she would never, ever lie or exaggerate. Does this sound like her son is in Purgatory?
In grade school (UGCC) I was taught 1 lie = 7 years in Purgatory, so how many lies do you want to commit? God will do anything - anything for us. Consider a person who was so in the state of grace but committed one ‘white lie’ in order not to hurt someone else. Do you think God will send this person to hell? There has to be a purgatory.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Dear brother ConstantineTG,

By this, do you mean that you can see that Orthodox theology is not necessarily opposed to the dogma of Purgatory?

Blessings

I never really believed that they are opposed, rather they have a different view on the same thing. I was just wondering what that different view is and if Eastern Catholics hold the Western/Roman view or the Orthodox view.

 

[ciero]

I believe that most Eastern Catholics (at least the ones I deal with) take the Orthodox view.

In my opinion the Western view has no place in Eastern thought.

 

[dcointin]

If I might take the definition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church as the Catholic dogma, it’s surprisingly broad, and does not require any understanding that is contrary to the orthodox one. All it states is that there is a purification for the elect after death, that this is different from hell, that is experienced as a fire, that it is based on the tradition of praying for the dead, and that those experiencing this cleansing may be aided by our prayers and in particular the eucharist. I see no reason to object to this as an Orthodox.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Constantine,

I never really believed that they are opposed, rather they have a different view on the same thing. I was just wondering what that different view is and if Eastern Catholics hold the Western/Roman view or the Orthodox view.

Thank you.

I think part of the issue, as touched upon by brother Alexander, is that the term “Purgatory” has a Latin origin. It is common for non-Catholic Easterns to equate that word not with the dogma of Purgatory, but with the Latin doctrine of Purgatory, which are not exactly the same thing. Many non-Catholics perfectly equate the two (mistakenly), though there are EO like brother Dcointin who have a better grasp of the matter.

Only understanding will lead to unity.

Blessings
Marduk

 

[Aramis]

Purgatory is a dogma of the Church, it is a required belief for all Catholics. That priest needs to know this.

The dogmatic definition of it, however, is not what most Romans think it to be… but an intentionally very vague definition that fits both Theosis and Roman Purgatorial Fire into the single exceedingly vague definition.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

If I might take the definition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church as the Catholic dogma, it’s surprisingly broad, and does not require any understanding that is contrary to the orthodox one. All it states is that there is a purification for the elect after death, that this is different from hell, that is experienced as a fire, that it is based on the tradition of praying for the dead, and that those experiencing this cleansing may be aided by our prayers and in particular the eucharist. I see no reason to object to this as an Orthodox.

Actually, you are absolutely right!

Alex

 

[Seamus_L]

Once again it comes down to who you ask. I’ve seen the prayer to St Gertrude for the Souls in Purgatory in an Eastern Catholic Church, posted above a kneeler near where candles are lit. And then of course there’s this church ourladyofpurgatory.org/

 

[ConstantineTG]

Once again it comes down to who you ask. I’ve seen the prayer to St Gertrude for the Souls in Purgatory in an Eastern Catholic Church, posted above a kneeler near where candles are lit. And then of course there’s this church ourladyofpurgatory.org/

But the Maronites were never severed from Rome by the Great Schism. Perhaps it helped them partake in the development of its definition?

 

[ciero]

But the Maronites were never severed from Rome by the Great Schism. Perhaps it helped them partake in the development of its definition?

The Maronites were never cut off from Rome by any act of schism or separation does not change the fact that they were cut off from Rome for several centuries by distance and lack of communication.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Once again it comes down to who you ask. I’ve seen the prayer to St Gertrude for the Souls in Purgatory in an Eastern Catholic Church, posted above a kneeler near where candles are lit. And then of course there’s this church ourladyofpurgatory.org/

Well, we have many parishes that are of a decidedly “Latin Bent.”

For them, the “Decree on the Eastern Catholic Churches” is something that concerns other people!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Once again it comes down to who you ask. I’ve seen the prayer to St Gertrude for the Souls in Purgatory in an Eastern Catholic Church, posted above a kneeler near where candles are lit. And then of course there’s this church ourladyofpurgatory.org/

Actually, could you explain what RC’s currently believe about purgatory? Inquiring (Eastern) minds need to know!

Alex

 

[StTommyMore]

Actually, could you explain what RC’s currently believe about purgatory? Inquiring (Eastern) minds need to know!

Alex

Purgatory is not necessarily a place but a process of purification. All who undergo purgatory are destined for heaven. (CCC 1030-1032)

 

[Seamus_L]

Alex
At the Traditional RC parishes I attend, we get frequent references to the Poor or Holy Souls in Purgatory. They're usually not descriptive, but I remember a few times where words like "alleviating their suffering" were used. We're reminded to pray for them and that they can pray for us too. Out side of Traditional parishes, I can't recall hearing many references to purgatory, either first or second hand.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

In that case, apart from the terminology, East and West believes the same thing!

Alex