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TimothyH
Guest
I"m sure you mean to say dogma instead of doctrine.
You can point your friend to my three part post on Purgatory HERE.
-Tim-
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-Tim-
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jerry_kelso
Guest
Fledgling. This prayer was quoted by St. Gertrude a mystic nun. Jesus never mentioned anything about purgatory. Scriptures are used loosely and taken out of context.
Purgatory is a form of universal reconciliation. We as christians have been saved so we should,kt want anyone else to go to hell. It is true that no unclean thing shall reside in heaven. So these are two basic beliefs of purgatory; salvation and purification.
Paul has one of the more plain statements about the dead, recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:29; known as Baptism of the Dead. This was said in response to those who didn’t believe in the physical resurrection in verse 12. Paul was saying if you don’t believe in a physical resurrection then Baptism for the dead is foolish. Paul was speaking to gentile christians in Corinth which was a very pagan city. The pagan’s baptism of the dead ritual is not scriptural. The only scriptural baptism of the dead is under the Jewish law found in Numbers 19 under the purification laws. But it could only parallel with purification in connection with purgatory.
Carnal christians will not enter heaven; Romans 8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is Life and peace and that life is eternal salvation. Verse 7 says because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. If purgatory is for sanctification then it negates 1 Peter 1:2 through sanctification of the Spirit. The lord is coming back for the true church that will be without spot or wrinkle Ephesians 5:27. This is why he sanctifies us through the washing of the water of the word. So there is no purgatory because of purification.
Purgatory for salvation doesn’t work either. Lazarus was told that if his brothers didn’t believe Moses and the prophets They wouldn’t believe anyone that came back from the dead. There were people like that then and even now. Theses people cannot even believe in the fact of Jesus resurrection of Jesus much less believe in his finished work to save them and give them eternal life in and with Jesus forever. Purgatory is not found in scripture. Jerry Kelso
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jerry_kelso
Guest
Fledgling. This prayer was quoted by St. Gertrude a mystic nun. Jesus never mentioned anything about purgatory. Scriptures are used loosely and taken out of context.
Purgatory is a form of universal reconciliation. We as christians have been saved so we should,kt want anyone else to go to hell. It is true that no unclean thing shall reside in heaven. So these are two basic beliefs of purgatory; salvation and purification.
Paul has one of the more plain statements about the dead, recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:29; known as Baptism of the Dead. This was said in response to those who didn’t believe in the physical resurrection in verse 12. Paul was saying if you don’t believe in a physical resurrection then Baptism for the dead is foolish. Paul was speaking to gentile christians in Corinth which was a very pagan city. The pagan’s baptism of the dead ritual is not scriptural. The only scriptural baptism of the dead is under the Jewish law found in Numbers 19 under the purification laws. But it could only parallel with purification in connection with purgatory.
Carnal christians will not enter heaven; Romans 8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is Life and peace and that life is eternal salvation. Verse 7 says because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. If purgatory is for sanctification then it negates 1 Peter 1:2 through sanctification of the Spirit. The lord is coming back for the true church that will be without spot or wrinkle Ephesians 5:27. This is why he sanctifies us through the washing of the water of the word. So there is no purgatory because of purification.
Purgatory for salvation doesn’t work either. Lazarus was told that if his brothers didn’t believe Moses and the prophets They wouldn’t believe anyone that came back from the dead. There were people like that then and even now. Theses people cannot even believe in the fact of Jesus resurrection of Jesus much less believe in his finished work to save them and give them eternal life in and with Jesus forever. Purgatory is not found in scripture. Jerry Kelso
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rdscheirer
Guest
Macabees and St. Paul may point to a Purgatory but I see nothing inn the Gospels about a purgatory.
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DebChris
Guest
CCC1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
CCC1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned…The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of scripture speaks of a cleansing fire.
It is true that the term Purgatory is not found in scripture. The most common reference is where Judas Maccabeus makes atonement for the dead that their sins “might be fully blotted out” (Mac 12:38-42).
Jesus spoke of Gehenna, which is a large garbage dump aside Jerusalem, to describe the punishment of the damned.
We are called to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect (Mt 5:48), a state that we can only reach by God’s grace. Our acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior through the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation does not negate our free will. We remain capable of both intentional and unintentional (venial) sin. If we were capable of holiness through our efforts, we would not need God.
Scriptural references already mentioned are 1 Cor 3:11-15 which speaks of those “saved but only as through fire” and God’s holiness as “a consuming fire.” (Heb 12: 29).
Other scriptural references provided by The Catholic Answer Bible are Lv 11:44; 19:2 + Dt 4:24 + Mal 3:2-4 + Mt 5:48 + 2 Cor 7:11 + 1 Pt 1:16.
The pain we might experience is compared to that of a surgeon using fire to cauterize and heal. Purgatory is seen as a work of God’s mercy. Obviously we don’t want to spend any more time in Purgatory than necessary, just as when sick we want to leave a hospital as soon as possible, as soon as we are well.
CCC1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned…The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of scripture speaks of a cleansing fire.
It is true that the term Purgatory is not found in scripture. The most common reference is where Judas Maccabeus makes atonement for the dead that their sins “might be fully blotted out” (Mac 12:38-42).
Jesus spoke of Gehenna, which is a large garbage dump aside Jerusalem, to describe the punishment of the damned.
We are called to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect (Mt 5:48), a state that we can only reach by God’s grace. Our acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior through the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation does not negate our free will. We remain capable of both intentional and unintentional (venial) sin. If we were capable of holiness through our efforts, we would not need God.
Scriptural references already mentioned are 1 Cor 3:11-15 which speaks of those “saved but only as through fire” and God’s holiness as “a consuming fire.” (Heb 12: 29).
Other scriptural references provided by The Catholic Answer Bible are Lv 11:44; 19:2 + Dt 4:24 + Mal 3:2-4 + Mt 5:48 + 2 Cor 7:11 + 1 Pt 1:16.
The pain we might experience is compared to that of a surgeon using fire to cauterize and heal. Purgatory is seen as a work of God’s mercy. Obviously we don’t want to spend any more time in Purgatory than necessary, just as when sick we want to leave a hospital as soon as possible, as soon as we are well.
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adrift
Guest
Are you sure that this is past tense. It seems that it would be perfect and perfect progressive forms both in the present.
If it were past, it would be we had not have been and He had made not has made.
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adrift
Guest
Luke Chapter 12
58: As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59: I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper."
What do you think Jesus meant?
Matthew 12:32 32: And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 9:49 For every one will be salted with fire
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DebChris
Guest
These two verses have to do with our personal relationships with one another. It is the idea of reconciliation between two persons and not pressing your own case.
Obviously we would not settle with Satan (the Accuser) whom we have rejected.
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Church_Militant
Guest
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DebChris
Guest
Thanks for the link that connects Catholic teaching to our Judeo Tradition.
It may be worth noting the discrepancies between Catholic and Protestant Canons. (Source: Catholic Answer Bible).
There were 2 sets of Jews, those living in Palestine who spoke Hebrew and those scattered throughout the Roman Empire who spoke Greek. Several centuries before Christ, the Jews in Palestine eliminated the books that did not meet the criteria set up by the Pharisees. (1) They had to be in harmony with the Pentateuch, (2) written before the time of Ezra, (3) written in Hebrew, and (4) in Palestine.
This eliminated Judith (Aramaic), Wisdom and 2 Maccabees (Greek), Tobit plus parts of Daniel and Esther (Aramaic), Baruch (outside of Palestine), plus Sirach and 1 Maccabees (written after the time of Ezra).
Until challenged by the Reformation, the Christian Church accepted the Alexandrine Canon as the true Bible. This is the Canon of the Catholic Church.
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adrift
Guest
What you say is true but it doesn’t explain all.
Get out of where? What is being paid and to who?
It is more than between two people. It is more than our dealings with each other. It is also are relationship with God. Love God Love your neighbor. You won’t get out of punishment until you have paid the last penny.
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panevino
Guest
…
mat 25:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
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adrift
Guest
How is that last penny going to be paid?
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DebChris
Guest
I always read this passage in terms of personal relationship. Your accuser has a grudge against you. If you force the matter, you lose and end up owning the plaintiff, whoever he/she might be. On the other hand if you seek to resolve the problem before it gets to court, you both come away with a win-win situation. Indeed, Jesus even said that if when you bring your gift to the altar, you remember that your brother has a grievance against you, go and be reconciled before you return with your gift. We can also look at the Our Father that calls for us to forgive the sins of others in order for our own sins to be forgiven. If we want our debts (trespasses) forgiven, we must forgive the debts of our neighbor. Our relationships with one another reflect our relationship with God .
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alacoque
Guest
I always read this passage in terms of personal relationship. Your accuser has a grudge against you. If you force the matter, you lose and end up owning the plaintiff, whoever he/she might be. On the other hand if you seek to resolve the problem before it gets to court, you both come away with a win-win situation. Indeed, Jesus even said that if when you bring your gift to the altar, you remember that your brother has a grievance against you, go and be reconciled before you return with your gift. We can also look at the Our Father that calls for us to forgive the sins of others in order for our own sins to be forgiven. If we want our debts (trespasses) forgiven, we must forgive the debts of our neighbor. Our relationships with one another reflect our relationship with God .
DebChris: The second Person of the Holy Trinity did not become incarnate (in Jesus Christ) in order to merely give us a beneficial social structure and instructions on how to get along with our neighbors – as helpful and moral as the surface of His words is. As you said, our relationships with one another reflect (or should reflect) our relationship with God.
But, even more than that concept, and a corollary of it, all that Jesus said, taught and lived was to reveal the Father, and to reveal eternal truths and knowledge to which we would not otherwise have access. He taught, by parable and by analogy, the truths of the Kingdom and of eternal life. The reconciliation, forgiveness and restitution of what we owe is information, for us, about how things operate with God and our attaining heaven.
Besides whatever else that passage is about, it is certainly about Purgatory and our purification from all stain of sin. The Church tells us this as well, so we can know with certainty it is the case.
Christmas Peace -
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TimothyH
Guest
Jesus Christ himself speaks of fogiveness for sins agains the Holy Spirit in an “Age to come.”
***…whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:32)***What is this “Age to come” and whom exactly is doing the forgiving? If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, then God must do the forgiving. If the “Age to come” is a reference to the afterlife, then this is a direct reference to Purgatory in the Gospels by Christ himself.
I find it odd that Catholics question matters of infallible dogma. Recall that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has taught the doctrine of Purgatory infallibly when it declared the belief to be dogma at the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438) and reaffirmed it at the Council of Trent (1545-1563). Since Jesus Christ - and therefor God himself – is the guarantor of The Church’s infallibility, the Church has spoken the last word on the subject.
Either you believe that the Church was established by Christ with the authority to teach infallibly on matters of faith or morals or you don’t believe it.
-Tim-
-Tim-
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alacoque
Guest
…*I find it odd that Catholics question matters of infallible dogma. Recall that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has taught the doctrine of Purgatory infallibly when it declared the belief to be dogma at the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438) and reaffirmed it at the Council of Trent (1545-1563). Since Jesus Christ - and therefor God himself – is the guarantor of The Church’s infallibility, the Church has spoken the last word on the subject.
Either you believe that the Church was established by Christ with the authority to teach infallibly on matters of faith or morals or you don’t believe it.
-Tim-*
Tim: perhaps these folks are more Catholic than the Pope…
-Tim-
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patricius79
Guest
no. Purgatory, like the N.T. Canon and the definition of the Trinity, is implicit in Scripture
it is taught very strongly in these verses
socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/02/biblical-evidence-for-purgatory.html
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Crumpy
Guest
I agree that Jews have a parallel notion of some purgation afted death, before one goes into the Divine Presence, as they describe it.
This belief is outlined in a book called ***Everyman’s Talmud ***by Abraham Cohen, which I have described a bit more in another thread.
And, it’s not just in one book, I read it over and over again in Jewish commentaries. But, the scriptural basis – I’m not too sure. The Jews may have developed or expanded this idea in the Talmud (talmud [torah] – study of God’s instruction).
Muslims, too, have picked this up, as I understand it. They apparently believe that everyone “goes to Heaven” or into the Divine Presence, but each spends varying amounts of time in a type of fire before being admitted.
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adrift
Guest
Well stated.DebChris: The second Person of the Holy Trinity did not become incarnate (in Jesus Christ) in order to merely give us a beneficial social structure and instructions on how to get along with our neighbors – as helpful and moral as the surface of His words is. As you said, our relationships with one another reflect (or should reflect) our relationship with God.
But, even more than that concept, and a corollary of it, all that Jesus said, taught and lived was to reveal the Father, and to reveal eternal truths and knowledge to which we would not otherwise have access. He taught, by parable and by analogy, the truths of the Kingdom and of eternal life. The reconciliation, forgiveness and restitution of what we owe is information, for us, about how things operate with God and our attaining heaven.
Besides whatever else that passage is about, it is certainly about Purgatory and our purification from all stain of sin. The Church tells us this as well, so we can know with certainty it is the case.
Christmas Peace -
- Status