Purgatory

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Another way of looking at the concept of Purgatory is that we have a nature that is broken and we commit sins. God is all good and gives Divine Justice. Justice would then demand that atonement be made for what we have done to others. Since after our death we no longer have the benefit of correcting personal relationships we injured by our sins then our atonement then is done somehow in Purgatory as a means of God’s justice.

mdcpensive1
 
Innumerable verses have supported that God will purify us ‘as gold that is tested in fire’ to be able to live with Him. Jesus’ death and resurrection opened the Gates of Heaven. He paid the eternal price for sin but the stain of sin remains.

Sin, even after you repent, and receive sacramental forgiveness, leaves a stain on the soul. Think on it. You (hypothetical person) do something bad to someone, say, hit them, then, afterwards repent and apologise saying you are sorry and they forgive you. But things just aren’t the same anymore. The stain of sin is on your soul. Purgatory removes the stains left by forgiven sins.

I used to work in the admin office of a remote gold mine and got pretty familiar with the entire process. I tend to view Purgatory like gold processing. The gold is there, it just has dirt stuck to it that needs to be cleaned off.

First it is blown up in the ground using explosives and carted away to the treatment plant. Then they crush the ore to dust using the primary and secondary crusher. Gold dissolves in cyanide, so the dust is added to a cyanide solution. The solution containing the gold passes through several other tanks increasing in gold concentration until it reaches the carbon in leach tank, where an electrical current is passed through it and the gold leaves the solution and attaches to the electrodes. When the electrodes are full, they are taken to the gold room, where they are put in a very very hot furnace, which melts the gold, burning away any remaining impurities and poured into ingots. Finally, gold!

That is for gold with an ore grade of 8 grams per tonne of ore. Even where you have visible gold, nuggets, it is subjected to the furnace to burn away any remaining bits of worthless dirt still sticking to it.

Some people will do their cleansing in this life, others will still have a bit left to do. It is a great mercy that we will be able to do so. Thanks be to God.
 
I have had the Purgatory debate with my non Catholic wife many times.
She also likes to bring up the Last Day and final judgement and asks how souls will be dealt with at that time if they need to go through the Purgatory process for a long time.
Not sure I have a clear answer on that one and would appreciate some help.
Mike
(I hope this post doesn’t start any arguments with you & your wife Mike).

We could start from vz71’s post :
Time is not the same here as it is in the hereafter.
Assuming time exists at all in the hereafter.
… And augment with several definitions from Father John Hardon S.J’s Modern Catholic Dictionary (bolded blue highlights mine) :

END OF THE WORLD
Revealed truth that the present world of space and time will come to an end
. It will be on the day when the dead will rise from the grave and Christ will appear in his majesty to judge the human race. As to the manner of the world’s destruction or its time, nothing definite can be said whether from natural science or from the Christian faith. The idea of destruction by fire (II Peter 3:7, 10, 12) can be taken simply as a current mode of expression to state that the present world will be dissolved and a new world will come into existence.

PURGATORY
The place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person’s degree of sinfulness. Moreover, these sufferings can be lessened in duration and intensity through the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth. Nor are the pains incompatible with great peace and joy, since the poor souls deeply love God and are sure they will reach heaven. As members of the Church Suffering, the souls in purgatory can intercede for the persons on earth, who are therefore encouraged to invoke their aid. Purgatory will not continue after the general judgment, but its duration for any particular soul continues until it is free from all guilt and punishment. Immediately on purification the soul is assumed into heaven. (Etym. Latin purgatio, cleansing, purifying.)
  • …continues in the next post
 
…continued :

It’s fairly common for us to get stuck contemplating the “world to come” in terms of “this world” instead ; terms of time ( and even space) because our earthly existence is pervaded by , or expressed in these dimensions of time and space.

It would help your wife if she didn’t hold too linear a view of the concept of Purgatory. She would appear to be limiting her concept of Purgatory too much by comparing it only to the prisons we have here on earth… reducing it to a question of simply how long the sentence will be. Father Hardon’s definition indicates that the aforementioned is an erroneous view to hold :

“The sufferings in Purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person’s degree of sinfulness.”

And he tells us (and hopefully also exhorts us) much with these words : “Moreover, these sufferings can be lessened in duration and intensity through the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth.”

If she wanted to try and expand her thinking, perhaps your wife could start by considering a simple analogy of a glass of water. God’s justice demand’s that the glass be filled to a certain point. If we needed a shorter duration of time to fill the glass, then we would need to intensify the flow … more water pressure ; duration and intensity of the suffering. It wouldn’t hurt to point out that if we were striving to do our utmost as conscientious Catholics, many more souls would be freed from Purgatory “sooner” , which would render the scenario she suggests even more unlikely (:)) - regardless of the error of thinking that time ,as we know it, will continue after the final judgement .

On one of St. Faustina’s visits to Purgatory, she asked the holy souls what their greatest torment was, and “They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God.”

(* I’m not too crazy about proposing this next part because it might be construed as limiting God’s ability to do all things, but it does serve as an argument ample of disproving your wife’s theory.Everyone please be advised this is a very imperfect example .)

To put it all into perspective :

We know that a soul who has reached Purgatory has the promise of going to Heaven . So what if a soul who had, (for lack of a better word) “extensive” Purgatory ahead of them were to pass away just prior to the final judgement ? The reasons I present here are not to say God would do it that way ; only to prove or show that it is “doable”.

In one instant God could purify that soul (remember the holy souls’ greatest torment is their longing for God) by plunging it into a darkness where it would feel totally abandoned by God - the greatest of their greatest torments.

One rightfully asks, “How could that be… that a soul could feel that way - totally abandoned by God yet not lose sight of its promise of Heaven . Is such a thing even possible ?”

I believe the answer can be found in [Matt 27:46] : “My God. my God…Why have you forsaken me?”

Neither should we ever underestimate God’s unfathomable Mercy - the same God who ordained that His Church should, on His behalf, impart indulgences to us - sinners whom He loves so much.
 
So, you read your Bible and formulate your own theories about what it means.

Why not read your Bible AND and the theories of people who are A) smarter than you are and B) more knowledgable about what the Bible actually means?

Those theories are gathered together in a book we call the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
A) I have, and I am by posting here.
I have read my faiths doctrines thoroughly,I refuse to turn this into a war over the churchs trascription of te Bible, but relying soley on that is saying that you believe what man says more than God, allowed the Bible to be made for a reason. Since its Gods truth its completely perfect. And it doesn’t mention Purgatory so why should I believe it? Cause the church says I should? I don’t think so. If Purgatory existsed it definetly would have been mention in the Bible.
 
Many thanks to all for providing more insights and background on Purgatory.
For the moment, my good lady regards it as a man made tradition but I will keep praying that the truth will be revealed in time.
Funny thing is I pray each day for my late mother-in-law, whereas my wife thinks that is wasting my time.😃
Mike
 
You wont find any evidence of purgatory in the Bible because it isn’t Biblical.
Wrong. Here’s some evidence:

“…all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)
“…nothing unclean will enter it (Heaven).” (Rev.21:27)

Purgatory is what happens in between.
 
A) I have, and I am by posting here.
I have read my faiths doctrines thoroughly,I refuse to turn this into a war over the churchs trascription of te Bible, but relying soley on that is saying that you believe what man says more than God, allowed the Bible to be made for a reason. Since its Gods truth its completely perfect. And it doesn’t mention Purgatory so why should I believe it? Cause the church says I should? I don’t think so. If Purgatory existsed it definetly would have been mention in the Bible.
Why do you believe Purgatory has to be spelled out to you explicitly when you accept an implicit doctrine derived from the Bible that God consists of 3 equal Persons only? Why didn’t Christ or an ‘Inspired Apostle’ write that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one God in one verse to remove any doubt for future sS adherents and years of bickering among them? Sola Scripture is as illogical and absurd as much as one who professes to be Catholic yet maintains the Church got their Doctrine of Purgatory wrong as it appears you’re doing.
 
A way of stating the doctrine of Purgatory can be done from reason. If you consider yourself a sinner (which all most likely will do) then you must know that in Heaven there is no sin. So somehow you must get from the state of sinfulness to be able to be in the presence of God who cannot be with sin. This process is Purgatory. For someone to refute it is to say that we are not cleansed of our sin tendencies to be in God’s presence.

mdcpensive1
Welli believe that kinda goes against the point ofJesus dying for us to forgive our sins.
God also said that he would cast our sins as far as the east is from th west if you ask. Meaning that Purgatory would be pointless. Seeing as you have already been forgiven. I think it depends on whether or not you accept the call from Christ.
 
Welli believe that kinda goes against the point ofJesus dying for us to forgive our sins.
God also said that he would cast our sins as far as the east is from th west if you ask. Meaning that Purgatory would be pointless. Seeing as you have already been forgiven. I think it depends on whether or not you accept the call from Christ.
What you keep missing is that purgatory is not primarly about having sin forgiven. It is about purging the filth from our soul so we are clean enough to be with God. God can forgive us and Christ makes it possible for us to be able to go to heaven. But that says nothing of being cleaned enough to go to heaven.

The church has not defined exactly how purgatory works. It could be a split second that feels like a long time, it could be a split second that feels like a split second. It could be the fire in our souls when we see God and all the pain and regret from hurting Him is of a suffering quality.

It about purging. That’s the key.
 
A) I have, and I am by posting here.
I have read my faiths doctrines thoroughly,I refuse to turn this into a war over the churchs trascription of te Bible, but relying soley on that is saying that you believe what man says more than God, allowed the Bible to be made for a reason. Since its Gods truth its completely perfect. And it doesn’t mention Purgatory so why should I believe it? Cause the church says I should? I don’t think so. If Purgatory existsed it definetly would have been mention in the Bible.
The Bible is part of the Church’s Tradition. We only know that it is God’s Word because the Church says that it is.

Why do you take the Church’s word that the Bible is the Word of God, but you won’t believe Her when she teaches about other things like Purgatory?
 
Welli believe that kinda goes against the point ofJesus dying for us to forgive our sins.
God also said that he would cast our sins as far as the east is from th west if you ask. Meaning that Purgatory would be pointless. Seeing as you have already been forgiven. I think it depends on whether or not you accept the call from Christ.
Nobody here said sin is forgiven in Purgatory so you’re creating a strawman for us Edoson or you do not know your Catholic faith very well with this particular Doctrine.

If there are no other consequences of sin after one is forgiven, then why did God take away David’s son after He forgave him? Surely it was also the blood of Christ that cleansed David’s soul after his repentance but something else went on here didn’t it. And it had nothing to do with forgiving sin in itself but everything to do with the temporal penalties that remain after one’s sin is forgiven in connection to our Santification process as Christians that starts here on earth and if not completed by the time of our death, it will be in Purgatory…

** "Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: “The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the LORD by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” (2 Sam 12:13-14)
**
 
A) I have, and I am by posting here.
I have read my faiths doctrines thoroughly,I refuse to turn this into a war over the churchs trascription of te Bible, but relying soley on that is saying that you believe what man says more than God, allowed the Bible to be made for a reason. Since its Gods truth its completely perfect. And it doesn’t mention Purgatory so why should I believe it? Cause the church says I should? I don’t think so. If Purgatory existsed it definetly would have been mention in the Bible.
Then the problem is with your understanding of God’s Church because God does not allow His Church to teach error.

The Church’s teaching is not simply “what man says”; it is what God has allowed the men entrusted with the care of Jesus’ flock to say with certainty.
 
Bible never says purgatory, and God didn’t ever say that they’re was a middle place where you weren’t really to bad but you weren’t that good. and saying prayers doesn’t release people of their fate even if purgatory did exist.

Plus, whoever posted the group of verses, those aren’t necessarily referring to purgatory? some are even completely irrelevant.

Daniel NEVER talked about purgatory in the Bible, or even came close to relating a subject to it.

God said it was either eternity in hell or eternity in heaven, he never mentioned a little middle place.
Yet, he gave Peter the Keys to the Church [Kingdom]. And Peter and the Apostles taught the concept of Purgatory.

So, they OBVIOUSLY got the teaching from Christ, and passed it on their flocks, and it became BOUND by the Word of Christ, and a SANCTIONED teaching we today must accept.

Would you rather we not have a chance to Purge ourselves of unconfessed sins ?

We all should be thankful Christ gave this dogma to the Universal Church via Peter, and the 12 [includes Paul].
 
  1. Welli believe that kinda goes against the point ofJesus dying for us to forgive our sins.
  2. God also said that he would cast our sins as far as the east is from th west if you ask.
  3. Meaning that Purgatory would be pointless. Seeing as you have already been forgiven.
1 … How so ? One thief on the Cross repented … and made confession, and recognized Christ as Lord. The other did not …
  1. And so he did … all sins we confess and desire forgiveness for are forgiven. But, can you/I obtain forgiveness for FUTURE SINS, before the FACT ? Show me in scripture where this is taught ? Where our future sins are separated [in advance] from us … as far as the east from the west ? Was Judas given forgiveness for his final sins … in advance ? Did he confess his error to Christ … and seek forgiveness for them ? Or, did Judas believe Christ had FORGIVEN HIM OF THEM … IN ADVANCE ?
  2. We all daily commit sins … and generally confess them on nightly basis, and hopefully at minimum on weekly basis … BEFORE we receive the Eucharist !!!
    But, if I/You died on a Sat. morning … before our weekly confession @ Mass … wouldn’t Purgatory be a welcomed opportunity for us to repent of, and be cleansed of them, before entering into God’s rest ?
 
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