purgatory

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fred_conty

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Take purgatory for example. One can say, “Geesh, I don’t know about purgatory. I doubt it, but I’m not going to deny it. I’ll just leave it be. If the church says so, okay, but I personally have my doubts…” That’s okay. They can be Catholic.

Right or wrong?
 
Take purgatory for example. One can say, “Geesh, I don’t know about purgatory. I doubt it, but I’m not going to deny it. I’ll just leave it be. If the church says so, okay, but I personally have my doubts…” That’s okay. They can be Catholic.

Right or wrong?
Who or what is Geesh?
 
Take purgatory for example. One can say, “Geesh, I don’t know about purgatory. I doubt it, but I’m not going to deny it. I’ll just leave it be. If the church says so, okay, but I personally have my doubts…” That’s okay. They can be Catholic.

Right or wrong?
Purgatory is a big part of our Catholic faith, and it is very important to understand it. It is pretty much a process of purification, where we get cleansed and are made ready and worthy to enter Heaven. All who make it to Heaven are saints, and if we are to be saints, we must be 100% purified from all sins committed on earth.
 
Thanks for the response, but can a person become a Catholic and not believe that it exists but only says “I don’t know”?
 
The problem is with the phrase, “just leave it be.”

If this means you have a persistent doubt about the existence or church teaching on purgatory, then that is a problem.

If on the other hand, you are obedient on the subject but choose not to become an apologetics expert on purgatory, well, that is OK.
 
If your position is “I do not believe it exists” then you have to stick to it. You cannot cover this up with an “I don’t know” when speaking publicly about the topic. After all, God is with us and sees all.

Again, if your position is that you do not believe, then you are either out of communion with the church or in full heresy. Neither is good.

If the church has declare the topic to be divinely revealed in a dogmatic statement, then you are in heresy. If it is a dogmatic statement but not explicitly declared to be divinely revealed, then you are out of communion. Both situations are bad and have a negative effect on the virtue of charity. In other words, the virtue of charity you want to grow, takes a serious blow.
 
That isn’t exactly what is being said. The statement is saying that it dosen’t deny positively that purgatory exists, but he can’t affirm that it does exist, but just passively
avoids it as a topic to be ignored without denial or affirmation.
 
I would like to clearify something. This is not my position. I personally believe it.
The reason I’m asking is that I saw this in another post which was stated as a catholic clergyman saying this. I thought maybe I’m missing something here and so I brought it to this thread.
 
According to this post, which cites Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, purgatory is a De Fide. As such, a Catholic has to believe in it as much as he believes in the rest of the de fides, like the divinity of Christ, for instance.
 
According to this post, which cites Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, purgatory is a De Fide. As such, a Catholic has to believe in it as much as he believes in the rest of the de fides, like the divinity of Christ, for instance.
So you would say that unless he affirmed his belief in purgatory, he could not become a catholic. It would not be sufficient to just not deny it passively?
 
So you would say that unless he affirmed his belief in purgatory, he could not become a catholic. It would not be sufficient to just not deny it passively?
Hmmm, for something that is supposedly not your own position, but rather, something that you simply read about in passing, you are surely coming up with a good many “What if…” technicalities. Frankly, it sounds like a search for a loophole. Otherwise, why make so many posts about it? :hmmm:
 
Take purgatory for example. One can say, “Geesh, I don’t know about purgatory. I doubt it, but I’m not going to deny it. I’ll just leave it be. If the church says so, okay, but I personally have my doubts…” That’s okay. They can be Catholic.

Right or wrong?
Purgatory is an infallible teaching. Catholics must believe it. Its not a case of I doubt it but I’ll accept it.
 
While the existence of purgatory is dogma, the exact nature of purgatory has not been defined by the Church. What the Church requires us to believe is that prayers for the dead are useful and beneficial. This implies that there is a “place”, or “state” of existence after death that is not Heaven and not Hell. Because souls in each of those “places” cannot benefit from our prayers. Apart from that, none of the popular conceptions of purgatory are dogmatic.
 
While the existence of purgatory is dogma, the exact nature of purgatory has not been defined by the Church. What the Church requires us to believe is that prayers for the dead are useful and beneficial. This implies that there is a “place”, or “state” of existence after death that is not Heaven and not Hell. Because souls in each of those “places” cannot benefit from our prayers. Apart from that, none of the popular conceptions of purgatory are dogmatic.
Good answer.
 
While the existence of purgatory is dogma, the exact nature of purgatory has not been defined by the Church. What the Church requires us to believe is that prayers for the dead are useful and beneficial. This implies that there is a “place”, or “state” of existence after death that is not Heaven and not Hell. Because souls in each of those “places” cannot benefit from our prayers. Apart from that, none of the popular conceptions of purgatory are dogmatic.
It is not implied. It is an infallible teaching. Infallible teachings are not implications.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

CCC 1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

CCC 1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
 
Take purgatory for example. One can say, “Geesh, I don’t know about purgatory. I doubt it, but I’m not going to deny it. I’ll just leave it be. If the church says so, okay, but I personally have my doubts…” That’s okay. They can be Catholic.

Right or wrong?
Having doubts is alright so long as they pursue reliable answers to their doubts. Having someone who can explain and answer those doubts in an easy-to-understand way is always the route to go. 🙂

Doubts don’t take away from being Catholic, otherwise, “doubting” St. Thomas would have been in trouble! 😛
 
While the existence of purgatory is dogma, the exact nature of purgatory has not been defined by the Church. What the Church requires us to believe is that prayers for the dead are useful and beneficial. This implies that there is a “place”, or “state” of existence after death that is not Heaven and not Hell. Because souls in each of those “places” cannot benefit from our prayers. Apart from that, none of the popular conceptions of purgatory are dogmatic.
Not so. The nature of purgatory (if I understand your post correctly) HAS been defined. It is a state, or place, of cleansing where we are purged (made clean) of our venial sins that remain with us at our time of death, should we die in a state of imperfection.

It is good to pray for the dead, as you stated. However, our prayers for those in purgatory are beneficial.
 
Purgatory - the so-called place of “fiery” purging of sins, “made clean”, is alluded to in the Old Testament, and the New Testament. Fire purifies, cleanses impure things from elements.

Numbers 31:22-23, “Whatever can stand fire, such as gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin and lead, you shall put into the fire, that it may become clean; however, it must also be purified with lustral water.” (Lustral water is the water mixed with the ashes of the red heifer cf. Num. 19:9)

Isaiah 6:5-7, Then I said, “Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!” Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. “See,” he said, “now that this (fiery, burning coal) has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged.”

1 Corinthians 3:12-15, 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

The works are what Christians have done, some referred to as gold, silver, etc - those are the “good” works that will not be consumed by fire, for they are pure, (good works). The other works described as wood, hay, straw - those are the “sinful” works, the ones that will be consumed and purged by fire. This “place” is typically referred to as “purgatory” - and it is more a “state” than an actual place, just as the fire is not a literal fire, but the state of being purged of impurities than those who are saved (going to heaven) must be cleansed of before entering heaven. God has declared that nothing unclean (impure; sinful) can enter heaven, and how many of us die in a state of sinlessness?

Those people, who are in grave sin, and bound for hell, do not get to be purged. Nothing can cleanse them for they have turned their backs on the saving grace of God (Jesus).

That is why many (perhaps most? ) who are headed towards heaven, must first pass through the “state” (some call it “place”) of Purgatory. Since most of us die with some stain of sin (venial sins), yet not mortal sin, and do not merit eternal hell, we must pass through the cleansing fire of purgatory where, like gold is purified in fire to be rid of impurities, we too are purified to become “perfect” (ie: sinless). For in Rev.21:27, nothing “unclean” will enter heaven, and sin makes us unclean.

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (CCC 1030).

This reality of purgatory, even though the actual word does not exist in Scripture, is described, and in 1 Corinthians 3, the Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire.

Also, 2 Mac 12:43-46, illustrates that our prayers for the dead who have died with the stain of sin upon them, can be aided by our prayers that those (in purgatory) may be loosed from their sins.

43 And making a gathering, he twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that the that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that the who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

So there is hope for all of us who die in God’s grace, to attain this perfection necessary to enter Heaven.

Blessings,
CEM:)
 
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