Purgatory

[On_my_way]

We all must remember to pray for evryone, even the ones that don’t believe in Purgatory. At the time of our death there will be two people fighting over our souls, God and satan. All the prayers at the time of our death will only better our chances that we will get to heaven.
But for those who don’t believe in Purgatory, do you pray to God for your loved ones at the time of their death and ask Him to accept them? If you do, then I ask you why? If you pray for them at the time of their death then they must be in an intermediate state between heaven and hell that Catholics call Purgatory? Because if you don’t believe in Purgatory then you believe that when one dies they go straight to heaven. So why would your family member or friend need your prayers?

 

[Churchmouse]

CanoeCamper55:

A couple of comments:

Is there room for discussion about personal prayer experience? I believe in my heart that the RCC is teaching the truth about purgatory, because I know that my prayers for my dead friends and relatives are being heard by God. I have never ever thought that my prayers were “wasted”. I trust that God always listens to every word and thought, especially our prayers for the dead at Mass.

What kind of faith would we have if everything that we did had to be “proved” by evidence? To me, that kind of faith denies any mystery of God and the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding the Church. I would suggest that, in regards purgatory, trust in and obedience to the Church is required. The Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”, and has interpreted Scripture to MEAN that purgatory exists and so it has prayed for the dead for 2000 years.

That’s good enough for me.

Purgatory does not come into existence because some wish it to be so. It doesn’t come into existence because some say that Church believed it for 2000 years when it seems pretty obvious they didn’t. Faith is one thing and it isn’t dependent on evidence, but there remains the gospel preached by Jesus and the Apostles. If one preaches a doctrine not supported by Scripture or the earliest church, we can claim “faith” until we turn blue, but that doen’t make it real, neither does it make it orthodox.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

We all must remember to pray for evryone, even the ones that don’t believe in Purgatory. At the time of our death there will be two people fighting over our souls, God and satan. All the prayers at the time of our death will only better our chances that we will get to heaven.
But for those who don’t believe in Purgatory, do you pray to God for your loved ones at the time of their death and ask Him to accept them? If you do, then I ask you why? If you pray for them at the time of their death then they must be in an intermediate state between heaven and hell that Catholics call Purgatory? Because if you don’t believe in Purgatory then you believe that when one dies they go straight to heaven. So why would your family member or friend need your prayers?

No, at death the die is cast. There is no repentance and no forgiveness after death.

Peace,
CM

 

[On_my_way]

Churchmouse:

No, at death the die is cast. There is no repentance and no forgiveness after death.

Peace,
CM

Whatevers!!! Go on believing what you have been taught and/or have learned and i’ll go on knowing the truth. The only thing you are doing is trying to convince yourself that there is no Purgatory and that when you die you go straight to heaven. Sorry it just does not work that way.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

No, at death the die is cast. There is no repentance and no forgiveness after death.

Peace,
CM

You are right; once we pass from this life into the next, there will be no more changes in direction, we made our choice and the “die is cast.” However we will be purified (if not perfected in this life first) “as if through fire” before we enter the Beatific Vision, for “nothing impure will enter into heaven.”

 

[CanoeCamper55]

Churchmouse:

Purgatory does not come into existence because some wish it to be so. It doesn’t come into existence because some say that Church believed it for 2000 years when it seems pretty obvious they didn’t.

The exact opposite statement can easily be made.

Churchmouse:

Faith is one thing and it isn’t dependent on evidence, but there remains the gospel preached by Jesus and the Apostles.

Absolutely!

Churchmouse:

If one preaches a doctrine not supported by Scripture or the earliest church, we can claim “faith” until we turn blue, but that doen’t make it real, neither does it make it orthodox.

Then why do Protestants “claim faith alone” will save them? If Protestants are not infallable when interpreting Scripture, then their interpretation can be in error. Based on the RCC interpretation of the MEANING of Scripture and study of the ECF, the doctrine of praying for the dead and purgatory are adequately supported.

You, a fallable single person, have the burden of proving that 2000 years of Sacred Tradition handed on to thousands of bishops has been wrong about purgatory. Are you willing to take a chance that you are wrong about your “personal” interpretation of Scripture regarding purgatory and other doctrines? I hope not!

 

[Churchmouse]

CanoeCamper55:

The exact opposite statement can easily be made.

The exact opposite would be that purgatory can be that purgatory can be created by wishing it into existence and that the earliest church did believe in a purgatory. The first is unrealistic and the second is untenable for the reasons I’ve stated earlier.

Absolutely!

Then why do Protestants “claim faith alone” will save them? If Protestants are not infallable when interpreting Scripture, then their interpretation can be in error. Based on the RCC interpretation of the MEANING of Scripture and study of the ECF, the doctrine of praying for the dead and purgatory are adequately supported.

As I stated earlier, the issue isn’t “faith alone” or anything else which can obfuscate the theme of the thread. The issue is purgatory and whether the Scriptures or the earliest church taught it. Neither do.

You, a fallable single person, have the burden of proving that 2000 years of Sacred Tradition handed on to thousands of bishops has been wrong about purgatory. Are you willing to take a chance that you are wrong about your “personal” interpretation of Scripture regarding purgatory and other doctrines? I hope not!

Because “faith alone” applies to salvation only and not to making a doctrine become true. Yet, nonetheless, faith alone, fallibility or infallibility (another concept I don’t believe in) isn’t the issue here. The issue is purgatory and, no, the apostolic church didn’t believe or teach such a concept. I would suggest that you read the thread in its entirety before claiming otherwise.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

You are right; once we pass from this life into the next, there will be no more changes in direction, we made our choice and the “die is cast.” However we will be purified (if not perfected in this life first) “as if through fire” before we enter the Beatific Vision, for “nothing impure will enter into heaven.”

No, you won’t be purified in the afterlife. You will go to either heaven or to hell. Don’t focus on solely the “as if through fire” piece of 1 Corinthians 3, but focus on the entire chapter. It is the works which pass through the fire, not the man. Satan, the most unpure of all, is in the Father’s presence in Job 1, so your interpretation of that verse is flawed, but I believe I told you that earlier. If you choose to believe a doctrine that isn’t taught in Scripture or in the earliest church, be my guest, but again, it only goes to prove how some will believe anything regardless of whether it is true or not.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

Whatevers!!! Go on believing what you have been taught and/or have learned and i’ll go on knowing the truth. The only thing you are doing is trying to convince yourself that there is no Purgatory and that when you die you go straight to heaven. Sorry it just does not work that way.

If you really knew the “truth” you would question why you cannot find clear evidence of this doctrine in Scripture or in the earliest writings of the church. Instead, you must rely on what others tell you is the truth and cast fate to the wind. Sorry, but I choose to look at reality and not what others tell me is reality.

Peace,
CM

 

[sara888]

**Purgatory really exists.
In his first letter to Corinthians, St. Paul says that “if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:14-15).

It is true that the word “purgatory” isn’t in the Bible but a third place is described in several places.

The verse is a reference to the suffering one must undergo for purification. Since the Bible does not name this third place, the Catholic Church gave it a name for the purpose of discussion. Similarly, the Catholic Church also gave names to the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Hypostatic Union, etc. Purgatory is the final purification for one who is already saved but not purified to enter heaven where nothing impure can enter.

Another support for the existence of purgatory can be derived from the book of Revelation. The inspired author writes that “nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life?” (Revelation 21:27). This verse shows the logical necessity for purgatory. We are all sinners and will require God’s mercy to enter heaven. Even though we may be forgiven for our sins, there is still a price to pay; “ I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last copper (penny)” Luke 12:59. To stand before God, we must be perfect and pure in every way. Even the smallest “white” lie will require purification prior to our entry into heaven.

Turning now to the gospel of St. Matthew, we find the following passage: “And whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). His verse implies that some sins can be forgiven in the next age (or “world” in some translations”). If someone dies and goes to hell, they will not be forgiven any of their sins. There is no sin to be forgiven in heaven since nothing unclean may enter. Therefore, the only logical explanation is a third place where sins are forgiven. Once again, the Catholic Church calls this place purgatory**.

Sara

 

[Churchmouse]

All of the verses you’ve mentioned have been responded to here and in other threads throughout the forum. Unless purgatory is being read back into these verses, none of these come out as supporting what doesn’t exist. I am interested in a statement you made though. You said:

It is true that the word “purgatory” isn’t in the Bible but a third place is described in several places.

Asides from Luke 16 and its reference to Abraham’s Bosom and the hell of the damned (where the rich man resides) there is no other “third place” in Scripture. Where in Scripture do you see several references to a “third place”?

Peace,
CM

 

[sara888]

**churchmouse

If someone dies and goes to hell, they will not be forgiven any of their sins. There is no sin to be forgiven in heaven since nothing unclean may enter. Therefore, the only logical explanation is a third place where sins are forgiven. Once again, the Catholic Church calls this place purgatory.

“For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.” (1 Peter 4:6) It is no doubt that heaven and hell are the only two eternal designations for the human soul.

However, here Peter says that Jesus preached to the dead who could not have been in heaven since heaven had yet to be opened and it could not have been hell since those in hell would not benefit from hearing the word of God.

Therefore, logic dictates that there is a third place. Catholics call it purgatory where our selfishness and prideful natures are purged from our soul before entering heaven**.

Sara

 

[Churchmouse]

**churchmouse

If someone dies and goes to hell, they will not be forgiven any of their sins. There is no sin to be forgiven in heaven since nothing unclean may enter. Therefore, the only logical explanation is a third place where sins are forgiven. Once again, the Catholic Church calls this place purgatory. **

Again, Satan, the most “unclean” of all is not only in the Father’s presence, but talking to Him in Job 1:6-12. Therefore, the RC interpretation of Revelation 21:27 is lacking.

“For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.” (1 Peter 4:6) It is no doubt that heaven and hell are the only two eternal designations for the human soul.

Why would you assume that the “dead” here are those in purgatory? What if this meant “dead in sin” as others, such as Augustine and Luther, believed this passage meant.

However, here Peter says that Jesus preached to the dead who could not have been in heaven since heaven had yet to be opened and it could not have been hell since those in hell would not benefit from hearing the word of God.

Prior to the Atonement, in Sheol (“Hades” in the Greek), there was a realm called Abraham’s Bosom where the souls of the Old Testament saints resided. Catholics know this realm to be “limbus patrum” or the “limbo of the Fathers.” Considering that Christ is the only way to the Father and He hadn’t yet come, this realm was a “waiting place” for the righteous souls of the Old Covenant. In Luke 16:25, Lazarus the beggar goes there and is “comforted”, thus taking away from any attempt to make this “purgatory” which is claimed to be a place of suffering. When Jesus “preached to the dead” it was because He went to this realm when He died. There is no purgatorial gist to this verse and, again, can mean “dead in sin”, but even if it didn’t, I believe that this verse appeals to Abraham’s Bosom, thus taking away any support to a purgatory.

Therefore, logic dictates that there is a third place. Catholics call it purgatory where our selfishness and prideful natures are purged from our soul before entering heaven

.

Obviously, logic dictates no such thing. It is Abraham’s Bosom, limbus patrum, the limbo of the Fathers. Purgatory is simply “read into” the verse, but it states nothing of the kind. Christ redeemed these saints a few days after His resurrection and they were allowed to enter the kingdom, Christ having provided the way. This realm ceased to be when these saints were redeemed. By the way, the RCC would agree with me regarding this realm and its present non-existence.

Also, if you are going to reiterate the argument that Dives, the rich man, may be in purgatory because he exhibited “compassion” which some claim cannot be if he were truly in the “hell of the damned”, think again. There is nothing in Scripture which would support that one cannot feel compassion in hell. Hell is a place of “weeping” (signifying “sorrow”) and “gnashing of teeth” (signifying “pain”). As evidenced by the account in Luke 16:19-31, there are “memories” in hell and these memories serve as a part of the torment. To remember loved ones while in hell is a horrible thing to experience, but it is worse to know they may be damned as well. Yes, there is reason to believe that one can feel compassion in hell.

Peace,
CM

 

[sara888]

**I do not feel one billion Catholics have misinterpreted the gospel, but that is your view.

All I can say is Purgatory is a real place, and lets hope for all our sakes we have a place to be purified, since nothing unclean or unholy can enter into the Kingdom of God.**

Sara

 

[sara888]

**churchmouse said:Yes, there is reason to believe that one can feel compassion in hell.

How could anyone in hell feel compassion, this statement makes no logic . They are in Hell for the simple reason they denied Christ and all of his requirements and request. They lack morals and love for neighbor, they lack empathy, sorrrow for ones sins, etc.

Sara**

 

[Churchmouse]

I do not feel one billion Catholics have misinterpreted the gospel, but that is your view.

I don’t believe that one billion Catholics have misinterpreted, but only that they choose to follow the few who have misinterpreted for them. Numbers don’t mean anything especially in light of Matthew 7:14. Like I said, there is no reason to believe that this was a teaching of the earliest church.

All I can say is Purgatory is a real place, and lets hope for all our sakes we have a place to be purified, since nothing unclean or unholy can enter into the Kingdom of God.

I don’t know why you keep repeating this. I have already shown you that you are wrong in your acceptance of the interpretation of this verse. Again…Job 1?

Peace,
CM

 

[mercygate]

Churchmouse:

No, at death the die is cast. There is no repentance and no forgiveness after death.

Peace,
CM

That is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Purification is another issue altogether.

 

[Churchmouse]

churchmouse said:Yes, there is reason to believe that one can feel compassion in hell.

Where is this “reason”? The rich man (Dives) felt “compassion” for his brothers and he was in the very “hell” that is reserved for the wicked. Pope JPII, back in 1999, before a general audience stated that the rich man is in this eternal hell:

Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged “by what they [have done]” (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). ***All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain *** (cf. Lk 16:19-31).

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html

How could anyone in hell feel compassion, this statement makes no logic . They are in Hell for the simple reason they denied Christ and all of his requirements and request. They lack morals and love for neighbor, they lack empathy, sorrrow for ones sins, etc.

There is no reason to believe that those in hell cannot feel what those on earth do. From Luke 16 we know that they feel compassion, they feel “love” (which is what spurred the compassion), they feel sorrow and they feel pain. There emotions go unheard, considering their separation from God, but they feel them nonetheless. What is illogical is that you cannot see what is so evident.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

mercygate:

That is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Purification is another issue altogether.

Yes, I already know this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Afterlife purification is at issue here which wasn’t a teaching of the earliest church.

Peace,
CM

 

[sara888]

**Churchmouse,
The bible claims, nothing unclean or unholy will enter heaven, it also claims that if you do not partake in the body and blood of Jesus, there is no life in you, etc, etc,. so what you are saying is most people are going to Heaven regardless of their conduct which I will re-phrase as l how well they lived their faith. Or you may be suggesting most are going to Hell.?

I believe you feel since you have faith in Christ and believe in him, regardless of conduct, charity, church communion, you are guranteed salvation.
You may say one with Faith does good deeds, so we cannot seperate them.

Sara**