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On_my_way
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Mickey said:
:yawn: :yawn:
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Shiann
Guest
Why do you remove the man from his works? A man IS the work that he does.
The commentary on 1Corinthians 3:11-15-
The foundation is Christ and his doctrine: or the true faith in him, working through charity. The building upon this foundation gold, silver, and precious stones, signifies the more perfect preaching and practice of the gospel; the wood, hay, and stubble, such preaching as that of the Corinthian teachers (who affected the pomp of words and human eloquence) and such practice as is mixed with much imperfection, and many lesser sins. Now the day of the Lord, and his fiery trial, (in the particular judgment immediately after death,) shall make manifest of what sort every man’s work has been: of which, during this life, it is hard to make a judgment. For then the fire of God’s judgment shall try every man’s work. And they, whose works, like wood, hay, and stubble, cannot abide the fire, shall suffer loss; these works being found to be of no value; yet they themselves, having built upon the right foundation, (by living and dying in the true faith and in the state of grace, though with some imperfection,) shall be saved yet so as by fire; being liable to this punishment, by reason of the wood, hay, and stubble, which was mixed with their building.
There is a removal of “that which is unworthy” for the presence of God. ie The removal of the substandard building materials we have used to “build” our life in Christ.
drbo.org/chapter/53003.htm
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Shiann
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geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/get-clean.html
This site discusses, and gives great citations for the difference in purgatorial beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church, and Eastern Orthodox Church.
This site discusses, and gives great citations for the difference in purgatorial beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church, and Eastern Orthodox Church.
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Churchmouse
Guest
On my way:
Peace,
CM
Yes, I think it is correct to simply forget it. Looking into the history of the Church, I don’t see a belief in purgatory in Scripture or in the earliest of Church history. You, on the other hand, simply choose to believe in what the Church tells you to believe. I don’t see how anything can change your mind.
Peace,
CM
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On_my_way
Guest
Ex-Catholic? Don’t think there is such a thing. If you were Baptized, got your Holy Communion and Conformation at a Catholic Church you are a Catholic who just got lost amoungst the wolves. It’s just like the Marines, once a marine always a marine.
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Churchmouse
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Contextually, there is the man and there is his works. The works of the man, and not the man himself, are tested by the fire. That which remains–the gold, silver, and precious jewels–determines his reward. At no time does the Scripture state that the man endures the fire, but his works. To say that the works are the man is a nice play on words, but doesn’t play with the context of the verse.
That’s all fine and dandy if you believe that a purgatory exist, but that hasn’t been established. Looking into the footnotes of my NAB, even it admits:
The text of vs. 15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.
Peace,
CM
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Churchmouse
Guest
Shiann said:
Earlier in this thread, someone gave me the same link. It’s a nice bit of sophistry, but the Orthodox view of the afterlife was somewhat like what Tertullian taught and not purgatorial in the least. As I said to the individual who gave the link earlier, it is best to go to the source:
The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory.
goarch.org/en/ourfaith/a…article7076.asp
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Churchmouse
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On my way:
Peace,
CM
With all due respect to the few…the proud…the Marines, I am an ex-Catholic. I’m not lost, neither am I amongst wolves and I really wish you would stop with the instigating. Like I said before, it’s not cool.
Peace,
CM
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On_my_way
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Instigating what. What am I trying to start? Did you receive all the Sacraments while you were a Catholic? If you did then you are a Catholic, you just choose not to be one. That is your right, because we have free will. If you walk up to a Marine and say that he is a ex-marine be prepared to duck or run. There are no ex-marines, only marines. No one can take away what the Catholic Church gave me, through Baptism, Holy Communion, Comformation and Holy Matrimony. Even if I decided to leave the Church,(which I won’t), I still have the grace that I recieved as a Catholic, which keeps me Catholic forever. Like I said you are Catholic if you recieved all your Sacraments, because no other Chruch gives you any Sacraments, except for Baptism. All you are doing is excersicing your free will which is your right.
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Churchmouse
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On my way:
Peace,
CM
In an earlier post, you implied I had no intellect. In your last post, you stated that I was a “Catholic who got lost amongst the wolves.” These are two personal statements, thus you are instigating a personal response.
Seems you just want to believe what you want to believe. In this case, you want to believe I’m still a Catholic. Well, I deny all the distinctives of the Roman Catholic Church, does that still make me a Catholic? Using your logic, Martin Luther was still a Catholic “amongst the wolves.” This is getting silly. I don’t know how this got away from the original theme of the thread, but if you have anything more to contribute, stay in theme.
Peace,
CM
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CanoeCamper55
Guest
Jesus prayed to the Father to help a dead person:
John** 11:32-45**
When Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said to him, “**Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” **When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who had come with her weeping, he became perturbed and deeply troubled, and said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Sir, come and see.”
And Jesus wept. So the Jews said, “See how he loved him.” But some of them said, “Could not the one who opened the eyes of the blind man have done something so that this man would not have died?”
So Jesus, perturbed again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay across it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the dead man’s sister, said to him, "Lord, by now there will be a stench; he has been dead for four days." Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?”
So they took away the stone. **And Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you for hearing me. **I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me.” And when he had said this, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, tied hand and foot with burial bands, and his face was wrapped in a cloth. So Jesus said to them, “Untie him and let him go.” Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary and seen what he had done began to believe in him."
Also, Paul prayed to the Lord for mercy for his dead friend, Onesiphorus:
2 Tim 1:16-18
May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.
Peter says that the gospel was preached to dead Christians:
1 Peter 4:6
For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead that, though condemned in the flesh in human estimation, they might live in the spirit in the estimation of God.
John** 11:32-45**
When Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said to him, “**Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” **When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who had come with her weeping, he became perturbed and deeply troubled, and said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Sir, come and see.”
And Jesus wept. So the Jews said, “See how he loved him.” But some of them said, “Could not the one who opened the eyes of the blind man have done something so that this man would not have died?”
So Jesus, perturbed again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay across it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the dead man’s sister, said to him, "Lord, by now there will be a stench; he has been dead for four days." Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?”
So they took away the stone. **And Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you for hearing me. **I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me.” And when he had said this, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, tied hand and foot with burial bands, and his face was wrapped in a cloth. So Jesus said to them, “Untie him and let him go.” Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary and seen what he had done began to believe in him."
Also, Paul prayed to the Lord for mercy for his dead friend, Onesiphorus:
2 Tim 1:16-18
May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.
Peter says that the gospel was preached to dead Christians:
1 Peter 4:6
For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead that, though condemned in the flesh in human estimation, they might live in the spirit in the estimation of God.
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Churchmouse
Guest
How does this prove a purgatory? Jesus didn’t do anything out of the ordinary. He prayed and resurrected a man from the dead. Maybe I’m missing it, but what does this have to do with whether there is a purgatory?
First and foremost, there is NO way of telling if Onesiphorus is alive or dead. Paul could’ve stated the same thing if Onesiphorus were on some trip. Secondly, the prayer is for his house and not Onesiphorus, Lastly, and most importantly, this is where Catholic tradition contradicts Catholic apologetics. How? Because Catholic tradition holds that Onesiphorus died in 81 AD. The Apostle Paul died around 67 AD (if memory serves me correct). That would mean that Onesiphorus died roughly 14 years AFTER Paul according to Catholic tradition. So, how can Paul pray for a dead Onesiphorus as Catholic apologists state when he died after Onesiphorus according to Catholic tradition?
I’ve answered this 2 or 3 times on this thread. Why would you assume that the “dead” here are those in purgatory? What if this meant “dead in sin” as others, such as Augustine and Luther, believed this passage meant?
Peace,
CM
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RichT
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This is a long thread and I am not going to read it all, so I hope this hasn’t been said in this way. I met with a priest yesterday to talk about my mother’s recent passing. I brought up the subject of purgatory. His explanation was very simple but made perfectly good sense. He said that as humans it is absolutely impossible to stand in the presence of Christ without some sort of blemish. Period!
Yes, we may follow Christ to the best of our capabilities, but we can never be perfect and without sin simply because of our human nature. Depending on the level of stain we carry in our hearts, purification is required to prepare us to stand in the presence of Christ in His kingdom.
Now common sense will tell you this makes sense. If you really think that simply asking Jesus into your heart is all you need, I would beg you to re-think that position. No matter how hard we work to be like Christ, we will always fall short. In other words, upon our death, we will always be unclean to some degree, and must be perpared or purified before entering His kingdom.
Yes, we may follow Christ to the best of our capabilities, but we can never be perfect and without sin simply because of our human nature. Depending on the level of stain we carry in our hearts, purification is required to prepare us to stand in the presence of Christ in His kingdom.
Now common sense will tell you this makes sense. If you really think that simply asking Jesus into your heart is all you need, I would beg you to re-think that position. No matter how hard we work to be like Christ, we will always fall short. In other words, upon our death, we will always be unclean to some degree, and must be perpared or purified before entering His kingdom.
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CanoeCamper55
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I am just demonstrating that praying for the dead is very scriptural.
A place that we call “Purgatory” is a “logical” and “historical” extension of praying for the dead.
It’s really that simple.
A place that we call “Purgatory” is a “logical” and “historical” extension of praying for the dead.
It’s really that simple.
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E.E.N.S
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I agree 100%.
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On_my_way
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CM maybe you can explain this with your OSAS theory. It’s kind of personal to me but I’ll use it any way.
My cousin who was battling with AIDS just past away on Tuesday. He is a Catholic, but did not attend Church for many years. He stole, did drugs and was a homosexual. All sins. Now, if we go by the OSAS theory then he will get to heaven. How is that so when he never had the chance to ask for forgiveness. How will he get to heaven when the Bible clearly states that “nothing unclean will enter heaven.” After all the wrong that he has done against people and most importantly against God, why does he get a free pass to heaven, if the OSAS theory is correct?
Now should I pray for my cousin and ask God to accept him into heaven? But if we go by OSAS then I don’t need to pray because he is already in heaven, according to your logic.
If OSAS is true, don’t any of you Catholics feel cheated knowing that all we need todo is just believe and accept God in our hearrs and thats it you are in?
My cousin by no means was perfect, nor am I. I believe he may spend some time in Purgatory as will I when I die.
Someone used that common sense will tell you this makes sense. Don’t take this personal CM, but common sense aint so common.
My cousin who was battling with AIDS just past away on Tuesday. He is a Catholic, but did not attend Church for many years. He stole, did drugs and was a homosexual. All sins. Now, if we go by the OSAS theory then he will get to heaven. How is that so when he never had the chance to ask for forgiveness. How will he get to heaven when the Bible clearly states that “nothing unclean will enter heaven.” After all the wrong that he has done against people and most importantly against God, why does he get a free pass to heaven, if the OSAS theory is correct?
Now should I pray for my cousin and ask God to accept him into heaven? But if we go by OSAS then I don’t need to pray because he is already in heaven, according to your logic.
If OSAS is true, don’t any of you Catholics feel cheated knowing that all we need todo is just believe and accept God in our hearrs and thats it you are in?
My cousin by no means was perfect, nor am I. I believe he may spend some time in Purgatory as will I when I die.
Someone used that common sense will tell you this makes sense. Don’t take this personal CM, but common sense aint so common.
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CanoeCamper55
Guest
Step 1: Believe in praying for the dead (it is scriptural!).
Step 2: Find out where those dead persons are located (hint: it cannot be Heaven or Hell).
Step 3: Believe in another place called Purgatory (you’re done!).
Step 2: Find out where those dead persons are located (hint: it cannot be Heaven or Hell).
Step 3: Believe in another place called Purgatory (you’re done!).
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E.E.N.S
Guest
On my way:
On my way:
You mean an active homosexual lifestyle. Being a homosexual in itself is not a sin.
On my way:
I wouldn’t feel cheated if I gave up everything to get to heaven, and the next guy did nothing (except for say the sinners prayer that is) and got there, for two reasons:If OSAS is true, don’t any of you Catholics feel cheated knowing that all we need todo is just believe and accept God in our hearrs and thats it you are in?
- Heaven is worth ALL costs, and anyone who makes it there will not regret giving “too much” of themselves.
- We also know that the more we give of ourselves for the kingdom, the more reward we will receive in heaven.
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Churchmouse
Guest
Maybe I missed it. Where is this demonstration?
Wrong. Again, this is something I’ve touched on already. “Some” Christians prayed for the dead. There was no mandate to do so, but some did. The prayers are “refrigerium” and not “purgatorial.” It was understood already that the souls were in heaven, but “some” prayed that their souls would be refreshed (refrigerium) as if entering heaven for the first time. What you won’t find are prayers for an alleviation from a purgatory which didn’t exist. The prayers probably did more for those who lost their loved one and gave them a sense of hope. So, no, purgatory isn’t a “logical” extension, neither is it historical.
Not in the sense of your argument.
Peace,
CM
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