Purgatory

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

I agree 100%.

And you would

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

And you would

Peace,
CM

But of course!

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

CM maybe you can explain this with your OSAS theory. It’s kind of personal to me but I’ll use it any way.

My cousin who was battling with AIDS just past away on Tuesday. He is a Catholic, but did not attend Church for many years. He stole, did drugs and was a homosexual. All sins. Now, if we go by the OSAS theory then he will get to heaven. How is that so when he never had the chance to ask for forgiveness. How will he get to heaven when the Bible clearly states that “nothing unclean will enter heaven.” After all the wrong that he has done against people and most importantly against God, why does he get a free pass to heaven, if the OSAS theory is correct?

Now should I pray for my cousin and ask God to accept him into heaven? But if we go by OSAS then I don’t need to pray because he is already in heaven, according to your logic.

If OSAS is true, don’t any of you Catholics feel cheated knowing that all we need todo is just believe and accept God in our hearrs and thats it you are in?

My cousin by no means was perfect, nor am I. I believe he may spend some time in Purgatory as will I when I die.

Someone used that common sense will tell you this makes sense. Don’t take this personal CM, but common sense aint so common.

You obviously don’t understand what OSAS means and I will only take the time to correct you on it. OSAS isn’t a claim that one can do whatever one wants and still attain heaven. That’s what you’re saying here. OSAS is best defined as: If God saved you, you cannot lose that salvation. Those who God saves thirst after God and produce good works. Good works are a by-product of your salvation and not a prerequisite for salvation.

Now, will you quit trying to change the topic and respect my wishes not to stray from the theme of the thread. I know that purgatory is probably the worst thing to defend, but quit trying to change the subject.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

CanoeCamper55:

Step 1: Believe in praying for the dead (it is scriptural!).

It is not. You can only rely on verses you claim “imply” a purgatory, but when one considers that Jesus and the Apostles didn’t give a “clear” explanation on a realm or state where it is said the majority of Christians will go or partake, that pretty much speaks for itself.

Step 2: Find out where those dead persons are located (hint: it cannot be Heaven or Hell).

They were in heaven. The prayers were “refrigerium” as I stated already.

Step 3: Believe in another place called Purgatory (you’re done!).

Obviously, you’ve been corrected.

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

So, no, purgatory isn’t a “logical” extension, neither is it historical.

We have gone over this before, so I won’t elaborate much (plus I am going home in two minutes (lol), but since we have writings from the early Church Fathers implying a purgatory dating back to at least the year 200, saying it isn’t historical simply isn’t logical.

Peace [until next time!] brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

It is not. You can only rely on verses you claim “imply” a purgatory, but when one considers that Jesus and the Apostles didn’t give a “clear” explanation on a realm or state where it is said the majority of Christians will go or partake, that pretty much speaks for itself.

One more thing (I couldn’t help myself)…he said in #1 belief in PRAYING FOR THE DEAD is Scriptural (which it is) he wasn’t yet talking about Purgatory. We all know that praying for the dead certainly IS Scriptural. (This is turn leads to the developement of purgatory.)

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

We have gone over this before, so I won’t elaborate much (plus I am going home in two minutes (lol), but since we have writings from the early Church Fathers implying a purgatory dating back to at least the year 200, saying it isn’t historical simply isn’t logical.

Peace [until next time!] brothers and sisters in Christ!

Exactly, you hit the nail right on the head. Where was purgatory before those 200 years. Nowhere.

Peace,
CM

 

[On_my_way]

Churchmouse:

You obviously don’t understand what OSAS means and I will only take the time to correct you on it. OSAS isn’t a claim that one can do whatever one wants and still attain heaven. That’s what you’re saying here. OSAS is best defined as: If God saved you, you cannot lose that salvation. Those who God saves thirst after God and produce good works. Good works are a by-product of your salvation and not a prerequisite for salvation.

Now, will you quit trying to change the topic and respect my wishes not to stray from the theme of the thread. I know that purgatory is probably the worst thing to defend, but quit trying to change the subject.

Peace,
CM

So tell where is my cousin going to end up? Is he going to heaven or hell? I am not changing the subject. My cousin died and I believe he is in Purgatory for all the wrong that he did. So tell me where will he go or where is he right know heaven or hell? Just answer the question that I asked you and stop being so sensitive.

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

So tell where is my cousin going to end up? Is he going to heaven or hell? I am not changing the subject. My cousin died and I believe he is in Purgatory for all the wrong that he did. So tell me where will he go or where is he right know heaven or hell? Just answer the question that I asked you and stop being so sensitive.

If he never repented of his sins, he went to hell. If God drew him and saved him, he is in heaven. One thing is for sure, he is definitely not in a purgatory. BTW, I’m not sensitive, I just know when someone is desperately trying to change the subject

Peace,
CM

 

[On_my_way]

Churchmouse:

Exactly, you hit the nail right on the head. Where was purgatory before those 200 years. Nowhere.

Peace,
CM

And where was the Baptist Church before the 200’s… Nowhere!!!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

Exactly, you hit the nail right on the head. Where was purgatory before those 200 years. Nowhere.

Peace,
CM

Thanks!
Purgatory is a name that developed for the state of the dead in need of purification, the name/doctrine developed as all doctrine does. When was the first time we read the word “Trinity?”

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

And where was the Baptist Church before the 200’s… Nowhere!!!

What does the Baptist church have to do with whether a purgatory existed in the earliest church? Quit the silliness.

CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

You see what you did?! You made me stay longer at work!! Darn you all!!!

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

Thanks!
Purgatory is a name that developed for the state of the dead in need of purification, the name/doctrine developed as all doctrine does. When was the first time we read the word “Trinity?”

Again, you’re hitting it on the head, it “developed” as was anything not taught in the earliest church. No, the Trinity enjoys Scriptural substance, but not a purgatory.

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

Again, you’re hitting it on the head, it “developed” as was anything not taught in the earliest church. No, the Trinity enjoys Scriptural substance, but not a purgatory.

Peace,
CM

I asked where the word “Trinity” came from…it is a developement just as “Purgatory” is. They both share Scriptural substance. (In fact, Purgatory seems more logical than the Trinity, but that really doesn’t matter.) You are being bias CM, admit it.

 

[On_my_way]

Churchmouse:

What does the Baptist church have to do with whether a purgatory existed in the earliest church? Quit the silliness.

CM

You asked where was purgatory before the 200’s, so I asked you wher was the Baptist Church before the 200’s. and the answer was nowhere but yet you are a Baptist. If the baptist church did not exsist at the time of the early church why do follow that religion? Do you see how it has something to do with what you are trying to prove.

Was the Bible not written in the 400’s. Are the early church fathers only from before the year 200? Why isn’t the fathers after the 200’s considered early church fathers. Tertullian wrote about Purgatory in the year 211. According to you that would be a little to late. Because all you have been asking for is early church fathers teaching before the year 200. Since we know that the Bible was not put together until the 400’s, anyone before the 400’s or before the Bible was done is considered a early church father.

Why do you only go up to the 200’s?

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

I asked where the word “Trinity” came from…it is a developement just as “Purgatory” is. They both share Scriptural substance. (In fact, Purgatory seems more logical than the Trinity, but that really doesn’t matter.) You are being bias CM, admit it.

We aren’t talking “terms.” The word “Trinity” isn’t in Scripture, but the concept most definitely is there. The word “Purgatory” isn’t in Scripture, but the concept is nowhere to be found. Again, if we look at the word “God” in Genesis 1:26 it singular, but the word “us” in reference to “God” is plural. Thus, there is a unity in plurality. If we go to the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 where the word translated “one” is “echad” signifying plurality. If we go to the NT passages we see Christ in the water, a voice from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove (Matthew 3:16-17). We see Jesus praying to the Father in other verses, again showing a plurality (Jesus isn’t being psychotic by praying to himself). We can go on and on. Again, these are clear references to a Trinity. Nowhere does purgatory enjoy this clarity. So, the bottom line is, the Trinity is a logical extension of Scripture. Purgatory is not!

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

You asked where was purgatory before the 200’s, so I asked you wher was the Baptist Church before the 200’s. and the answer was nowhere but yet you are a Baptist. If the baptist church did not exsist at the time of the early church why do follow that religion? Do you see how it has something to do with what you are trying to prove.

Was the Bible not written in the 400’s. Are the early church fathers only from before the year 200? Why isn’t the fathers after the 200’s considered early church fathers. Tertullian wrote about Purgatory in the year 211. According to you that would be a little to late. Because all you have been asking for is early church fathers teaching before the year 200. Since we know that the Bible was not put together until the 400’s, anyone before the 400’s or before the Bible was done is considered a early church father.

Why do you only go up to the 200’s?

From this point on, I am not going to answer anything from you unless it is clearly about purgatory. Therefore, to answer your question about the 2 centuries, it is important because it shows that it wasn’t taught in the earliest Church. It came* later* with the seeds being sown by Clement of Alexandria and Origen, although the doctrine in its fullness isn’t there until much later. No, Tertullian did not write about purgatory. He believed in something completely different. Show me the citations proving he taught such a thing and I will explain to you exactly what he believed.

Peace,
CM

 

[Mickey]

Origen

If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 A.D. 185-232]).

 

[Ahimsa]

Origen
It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 A.D. 185-232]).

Ah, Origen! The greatest Church theologian of all time.