Purgatory

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On my way:
You don’t have to answer me any more. Did you actually speak to Tertullian and ask him what he believed? If you did not speak to him then how do you know what he believed? Oh yeah, personal interpretation. You don’t really think that you know what he really meant now do you. To say that you will explain to me what Tertullian believed exactly is a joke, unless you can converse with the dead.
Actually, I’ve read quite a bit of Tertullian and I know enough to know he held to no such concept. It has nothing to do with personal interpretation, but reading the man and what he wrote. I would suggest you do the same.

Peace,
CM
 
E.E.N.S.:
I am reminded of “casting pearls before swine.”
It’s funny that “Mickey” would deem my post as uncharitable, yet doesn’t say a thing regarding your implication that I am a “swine.”
Also, I am tired of hearing you say that no one is giving you exegesis on anything and that we are just “slinging verses.” This is an uncalled for claim, or a false claim. Practice some charity, Lord knows we all need to do this much more than we do…however, claiming that a 2000 year old Church (founded by Christ no less) that has weathered plenty of heresies and false teachings, is propagating “fairy tales” is not only lacking in general charity, but it is extremely arrogant as well.
These are the same old buzzwords given when asked to prove something. Yes, you did sling verses without providing a context for the verse. It’s there for all to see.
I have tried (poorly tried, but tried none the less) to show charity in my posts, but it is hard when you accuse everyone who responds contrary to you to be “illogical.”
No, don’t do that. No one called you “illogical” but claimed that the passages you submitted were illogical in proving purgatory. There is no need to draw attention to something which didn’t happen.

Peace,
CM
 
On my way:
CM your qoute.
“Don’t cry for me. Cry for those who chose to believe in fairy tales.” Are you saying 2000 years of teachings are fairy tales? Boy do you have the nerve. But then again that is expected by heretics.
<<>> Isn’t that the point? That I claimed that it isn’t a teaching of the early church? You keep claiming that it is the teaching of the “2,000” year old church and I stated that it is not. You and the others haven’t provided any evidence to show that this teaching was Apostolic in origin or Christian in nature. Instead, there has been plenty of provocation and sidestepping.

Peace,
CM
 
E.E.N.S.:
I would suggest to everyone that instead of reading links such as this or links which suggest otherwise, that they should immerse themselves in unbiased study. It is then when you will see how purgatory is seriously lacking.

Peace,
CM
 
E.E.N.S.:
Ever wonder why we struggle so much as Christians with charity?
Even this statement can be viewed as uncharitable considering that the implication is that I am the one you are pointing to.

CM
 
For whatever reason, there are always a handful of ex-Catholics who become particularly hostile towards the Catholic Church after they leave it. This is unfortunate. We must pray for all those who voluntarily reject the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church–The Catholic Church.
 
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Churchmouse:
Even this statement can be viewed as uncharitable considering that the implication is that I am the one you are pointing to.

CM
Sorry, I wasn’t pointing to you, I was mostly referring to myself, but refering to the majority as well.
 
Churchmouse said:
<<>> Isn’t that the point? That I claimed that it isn’t a teaching of the early church? You keep claiming that it is the teaching of the “2,000” year old church and I stated that it is not.

The Catholic Church is a 2,000 year old Church, and she does teach purgatory
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Churchmouse:
You and the others haven’t provided any evidence to show that this teaching was Apostolic in origin or Christian in nature. Instead, there has been plenty of provocation and sidestepping.
I haven’t seen any sidestepping. You just ignore anything provided to you. Hardness of heart.
 
Setting aside personal interpretations and opinions, the historical facts remain (as clearly demonstrated above):
  1. The Jews prayed for the dead.
  2. Jesus prayed for the dead.
  3. Paul prayed for the dead.
  4. Peter prayed for the dead.
  5. The early (before 202 AD) Christians prayed for the dead.
  6. The later Christians prayed for the dead.
  7. The Catholic Church prays for the dead at every Mass.
That pretty much wraps it up.

I really think we’ve thoroughly exhausted all the pertinent ideas on this topic, thanks to EENS, OMW, CM, and others. Is there a way to close or finish a thread?
 
You accused me of “verse slinging” when I made this post [below], however, if you read it, you will noticed that they were all short exegesises on each verse - many times I didn’t even write down the verse at all, only referenced it.
E.E.N.S.:
Here are some more parallels:

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
 
**** Churchmouse, what is you interpretation of the verse below?

Cor. 3.15: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” Purgatory is reflected****,

He Who redeemed us by His mercy," says St. Augustine, "will judge us by His Justice.
 
**The following is quoted from the book “Outlines of European History” by James Breasted and James Robinson, copyright 1914, which was used as a textbook at Classen Public High School in Oklahoma City in the 1930’s. (So it is not a Catholic school history book.): “It was not until about the third century that Christians came to call their Church Catholic’ (meaning ‘universal’). The Catholic Church embraced all true believers in Christ, wherever they might be. To this one universal Church all must belong who hoped to be saved” (page 308). And then it quotes St. Cyprian (died 258) as follows: “whoever separates himself from the Church is separated from the promises of the Church… He is an alien, he is profane, he is an enemy; he can no longer have God for his father who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the Ark of Noah, so also may he escape who shall be outside the bounds of the Church.” (Note: Breasted & Robinson’s text errs, however, as to the date the Church came to be called “Catholic.” St. Ignatius of Antioch (died 107) called the Church “Catholic” in his writings.)

So until the Sixteenth Century when Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church, the overwhelming majority of Christians were Roman Catholics**
 
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Mickey:
For whatever reason, there are always a handful of ex-Catholics who become particularly hostile towards the Catholic Church after they leave it. This is unfortunate. We must pray for all those who voluntarily reject the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church–The Catholic Church.
Don’t worry, Mickey, I am not a “particularly hostile” ex-Catholic. I am a “thinking” individual who happens to be ex-Catholic.

Peace,
CM
 
E.E.N.S.:
The Catholic Church is a 2,000 year old Church, and she does teach purgatory
Saying it doesn’t make it real. I’ll ask you once again, do you have any evidence of the Church holding to this belief. And, please, don’t recite the Scriptures you say “implies” purgatory. I’ve already shown you that it doesn’t these verses do no such thing.
I haven’t seen any sidestepping. You just ignore anything provided to you. Hardness of heart.
If you aren’t providing any substance and slight my questions, it’s sidestepping.

Peace,
CM
 
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CanoeCamper55:
Setting aside personal interpretations and opinions, the historical facts remain (as clearly demonstrated above):
  1. The Jews prayed for the dead.
  2. Jesus prayed for the dead.
  3. Paul prayed for the dead.
  4. Peter prayed for the dead.
  5. The early (before 202 AD) Christians prayed for the dead.
  6. The later Christians prayed for the dead.
  7. The Catholic Church prays for the dead at every Mass.
That pretty much wraps it up.

I really think we’ve thoroughly exhausted all the pertinent ideas on this topic, thanks to EENS, OMW, CM, and others. Is there a way to close or finish a thread?
You see, this is what I mean. Canoe Camper comes on and posts a list of alleged proofs that, I guess, I’m supposed to look at and consider. Again, saying it doesn’t make it true. Provide the resources which support your claims. Also, praying for the dead doesn’t mean that it was out of a purgatory and I’ve explained that earlier. Now, if I were supposed to show you the fallacy of each point above, would anyone care or dare to read them. Nope, they will simple repeat the same things all over again. Here are the refutation to each point above. Let’s see how it works out:
  1. The school of Shammai, later within the Christian era, pondered the idea, but again, this was later and wasn’t held by the Jews of the OT. The school of Hillel didn’t believe in a purgatory. They believed in an intermediate zone (Abraham’s bosom), but it wasn’t purgatorial in nature. See here: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory
  2. Jesus didn’t pray for the dead. You are reading too much into the story of Lazarus. Jesus prayed to the Father for Lazarus’ resurrection (John 11:41). Show me where He prayed for the dead.
  3. Again, Paul did no such thing. Onesiphorus died after Paul according to Catholic tradition. Onesiphorus died in 81 AD, Paul in 67 AD. How can Paul pray for a dead Onesiphorus when Catholic tradition teaches differently. See here: catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4910 and compare to here: catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=91 Note the years of their deaths.
  4. Where did Peter pray for the dead? This is a new one on me.
  5. “Some” early Christians prayed for the dead, but it wasn’t for a release from a purgatory. The purgatory part you are just reading into. Instead of getting into detail and repeating what I’ve repeated so many times. Read my earlier post regarding the “refrigerium.” There is nothing purgatorial about it.
  6. “Later” doesn’t legitimize the belief. Try “earlier” not “later.”
  7. Again, this doesn’t mean that it was a legitimate of the earliest church.
Peace,
CM
 
E.E.N.S.:
You accused me of “verse slinging” when I made this post [below], however, if you read it, you will noticed that they were all short exegesises on each verse - many times I didn’t even write down the verse at all, only referenced it.
There isn’t any exegesis in any of the verses you’ve provided. Do you know what exegesis means? It means that you critically examine the text. If you do so correctly, within the context of the verses and in light of other Scripture, these verses don’t come off sounding purgatorial in the least. For instance, you restated the same argument regarding Onesiphorus, assumed he was dead and in purgatory, when he could be somewhere else. Then you never sought to find out what Catholic tradition states regarding his death which was AFTER Paul and not before.

Peace,
CM
 
sara888 said:
**** Churchmouse, what is you interpretation of the verse below?

Cor. 3.15: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” Purgatory is reflected****,

He Who redeemed us by His mercy," says St. Augustine, "will judge us by His Justice.

Sara,

I am tired of repeating everything. I answered this elsewhere on this thread. Just search through the posts and you will find it.

Peace,
CM
 
sara888 said:
**The following is quoted from the book “Outlines of European History” by James Breasted and James Robinson, copyright 1914, which was used as a textbook at Classen Public High School in Oklahoma City in the 1930’s. (So it is not a Catholic school history book.): “It was not until about the third century that Christians came to call their Church Catholic’ (meaning ‘universal’). The Catholic Church embraced all true believers in Christ, wherever they might be. To this one universal Church all must belong who hoped to be saved” (page 308). And then it quotes St. Cyprian (died 258) as follows: “whoever separates himself from the Church is separated from the promises of the Church… He is an alien, he is profane, he is an enemy; he can no longer have God for his father who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the Ark of Noah, so also may he escape who shall be outside the bounds of the Church.” (Note: Breasted & Robinson’s text errs, however, as to the date the Church came to be called “Catholic.” St. Ignatius of Antioch (died 107) called the Church “Catholic” in his writings.)

So until the Sixteenth Century when Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church, the overwhelming majority of Christians were Roman Catholics**

This has nothing to do with purgatory. Yes, the church was the catholic “universal” church, but this church didn’t believe in purgatory. I’ve finally bought a flatbed scanner. As soon as I set it up, I will used the OCR to post Jacques Le Goff’s explanation of the “refrigerium” in light of the early church. It is from his book The Birth of Purgatory. It shows that “some” early Christians prayed for the dead, but it was not for a release from a purgatory, but for a refreshing (refrigerium) in heaven.

Peace,
CM
 
On my way:
Don’t ask me to use Scripture because you are going to read it and interpert it the way that you want to. Personal interpretation is what caused the reformation and all these different denomenations. Since you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the authentic moral and theological authority and that it trys to protect it(Scripture) from misinterpretation, why would I even bother to post passeges. You’ll just say thats not what it says. Then again do you speak Latin, Greek and other languages that the Bible was/is written in?
On my way:

I believe the number of Denominations is now 12,100+ and counting, and most of these don’t talk to each other or pray with each other. The lack of Christian Chrarity is truly a scandal for the Body of Christ.

The real problem turns out to be the same one that caused the reformation in the first place - The refusal to accept the teaching authority of the Church or the Authority of the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church to define Doctrine in the face of controversies.

Once the Protestant accepts the Catholic interpretation of the Scriptures, he knows that he has to accept the Authority that produced that interpretation.

He can’t do that and remain a protestant, at least not or very long.

I believe the more time we spend praying for and with each other as was done at the Community of Taize, the more we will become unified. That’s true of Catholics praying together, as well as Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants praying together.

In Christ, Michael
 
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