Purgatory

[Vincent1560]

E.E.N.S.:

I don’t think you understand purgatory.

**1031 **The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

**1472 **To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

About the venial vs. mortal sins, I am confused as to why say stealing a dollar is less sinful than stealing a million dollars provided both are done with full knowledge and willingness. If purgatory does exist, I don’t see why God could not just as easily purge the desire that lead to the $1,000,000 theft as he could purge the desire that lead to the 1$ theft

 

[Zosimus]

The word "Purgatory", from Latin, “purgare”, means to make clean, to purify.

Purgatory is a beautiful and very practical doctrine taught by the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is the place or state for the purification of those just souls who depart in venial sin or who are still subject to temporal punishment for sin… defined as a dogma in the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV).

Doctrine of the Bible:

1- Some sins, like the one against the Holy Spirit, can not be forgiven neither on earth nor after death, but some sins can be forgiven and the person purified, either in this age or in the age to come (Matt.12:32)… this is the basis of the doctrine of Purgatory, *“And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” *

2- The “Baptism on behalf of the death” of 1Cor.15:29 is similar to the “Baptism of the Crucifixion” of Mr.10:38-38… here, in 1Cor., it is an expiation sacrifice to help the death… you can’t offer an expiation sacrifice for someone who is in Heaven or in Hell… is got to be a Purgatory!.

3- “It is a holy and pious thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins” (2Macc.12:46).

4- A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1Cor.3:11-15: *“For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” *

Your Church:

If in your church there is not the believe in “Purgatory”, your church can not pray for your loved ones deceased, because if they are saved, there is no need to pray for them, and if they are condemned to Hell, the prayers do nothing… even in the funerals you can’t pray for your loved ones… it is a church “without power”, it is not the Church of Christ where there is “power” to pray for the dead.

The word “Purgatory”:

The word “Purgatory” is not in the Bible, as the word “Holy Trinity” is not in the Bible, nor the words Lutherans, Calvinists, Pentecostals, Mormons…

Help to the Souls in Purgatory:

The Catholic faith teaches with the Bible that *“It is a holy and pious thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins” (2Macc.12:46). *

**The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass **is the greatest celebration in Heaven, and the best offering for the souls of Purgatory… their glorious hope to be helped out of Purgatory as soon as possible. See Paintings of the Holy Mass and Purgatory

**Virgin Mary **told St. Simon Stock in London that he who dies with the Scapular will go from Purgatory to Heaven the Saturday after his or her death… a delicacy of a Mother!. **The Rosary **is an excellent prayer to help the souls of Purgatory. There is the security of Heaven in Purgatory! See Paintings of Virgin Mary and Purgatory

**Purgatory: **
**from Concordance: Last Things **

Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59Degrees of expiation of sinsLk 12:47-48 Can be aided by prayer2Mac 12:45 Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 Christ preached to spiritual beings1 Pet 3:19Nothing unclean shall enter heavenRev 21:27Sacrifice for the dead2 Mac 12:43-46 *A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near *2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42 *No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32"Extra" suffering. *Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

 

[On_my_way]

Vincent1560:

I do agree with this, and think a retributive form of purgatory would contradict the aforementioned scriptures. If God chooses in his mercy not to remember our sins, why would he punish us for them in a purgatory?

Purgatory is not a place of punishment. It is a place of purification.

 

[Writer]

Convert68:

I’ve always liked what CS Lewis said about purgatory (and he wasn’t a Catholic but a believing/observant Anglican).

He said that it’s as if we arrive in Heaven covered in filth and dressed in rags. Before we meet God and all the saints, we will want to be cleaned up. That’s purgatory.

Yes, that’s a great quote. As a fairly new convert to the Catholic Church, I can’t see any problem with Purgatory either. For me, however, it is not something I focus on. From a discussion with our priest, some believe that we not even be aware of passing through Purgatory on our way to heaven. I think of it as the transition through heaven’s gates. I think Protestants get unnecessarily worked-up by Purgatory, because they misconstrue it as salvation being earned by works, when we all agree that we are saved through God’s grace.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

About the venial vs. mortal sins, I am confused as to why say stealing a dollar is less sinful than stealing a million dollars provided both are done with full knowledge and willingness. If purgatory does exist, I don’t see why God could not just as easily purge the desire that lead to the $1,000,000 theft as he could purge the desire that lead to the 1$ theft

There is a difference between mortal and venial sins, whereas the mortal sin cuts the sinner off from God’s grace, therefore if the person dies in that state no amount of praying (or purgation) will make any difference. (cf. 1 John 5:16:17)

16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

And let’s not forget that to be a mortal sin, that it must also be of a grave matter (stealing a dollar, depending on the circumstances, isn’t a grave matter.)

 

[Vincent1560]

I understood mortal sin in that context to be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but I have always wondered why we shouldn’t pray for it and haven’t received a satisfactory answer. What are your thoughts?

 

[Vincent1560]

The word "Purgatory", from Latin, “purgare”, means to make clean, to purify.

Purgatory is a beautiful and very practical doctrine taught by the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is the place or state for the purification of those just souls who depart in venial sin or who are still subject to temporal punishment for sin… defined as a dogma in the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV).

Doctrine of the Bible:

1- Some sins, like the one against the Holy Spirit, can not be forgiven neither on earth nor after death, but some sins can be forgiven and the person purified, either in this age or in the age to come (Matt.12:32)… this is the basis of the doctrine of Purgatory, *“And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” *

2- The “Baptism on behalf of the death” of 1Cor.15:29 is similar to the “Baptism of the Crucifixion” of Mr.10:38-38… here, in 1Cor., it is an expiation sacrifice to help the death… you can’t offer an expiation sacrifice for someone who is in Heaven or in Hell… is got to be a Purgatory!.

3- “It is a holy and pious thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins” (2Macc.12:46).

4- A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1Cor.3:11-15: *“For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” *

Your Church:

If in your church there is not the believe in “Purgatory”, your church can not pray for your loved ones deceased, because if they are saved, there is no need to pray for them, and if they are condemned to Hell, the prayers do nothing… even in the funerals you can’t pray for your loved ones… it is a church “without power”, it is not the Church of Christ where there is “power” to pray for the dead.

The word “Purgatory”:

The word “Purgatory” is not in the Bible, as the word “Holy Trinity” is not in the Bible, nor the words Lutherans, Calvinists, Pentecostals, Mormons…

Help to the Souls in Purgatory:

The Catholic faith teaches with the Bible that *“It is a holy and pious thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins” (2Macc.12:46). *

**The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass **is the greatest celebration in Heaven, and the best offering for the souls of Purgatory… their glorious hope to be helped out of Purgatory as soon as possible. See Paintings of the Holy Mass and Purgatory

**Virgin Mary **told St. Simon Stock in London that he who dies with the Scapular will go from Purgatory to Heaven the Saturday after his or her death… a delicacy of a Mother!. **The Rosary **is an excellent prayer to help the souls of Purgatory. There is the security of Heaven in Purgatory! See Paintings of Virgin Mary and Purgatory

**Purgatory: **
from Concordance: Last Things

Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59Degrees of expiation of sinsLk 12:47-48 Can be aided by prayer2Mac 12:45 Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 Christ preached to spiritual beings1 Pet 3:19Nothing unclean shall enter heavenRev 21:27Sacrifice for the dead2 Mac 12:43-46 *A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near *2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42 *No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32"Extra" suffering. *Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

I am not familiar with 2nd Maccabees

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I understood mortal sin in that context to be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but I have always wondered why we shouldn’t pray for it and haven’t received a satisfactory answer. What are your thoughts?

Funny you should ask that, as not too long ago I was talking to my father and a Priest about this topic. However, in 1st John were it says if you see your brother committing a mortal sin (so that would mean that he is still physically alive) not to pray for him…why is this? I don’t know. I can understand, however, why praying for a person who died in a state of mortal sin (or outside a state of grace) is futile, because they are in hell and there is no escaping. But how do we know if a person is in hell or not - that is for God to know.

I realize that I probably didn’t clear anything up with that quick little ramble…just a thought, however, and not a detailed stance or anything.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I am not familiar with 2nd Maccabees

Perhaps you should invest in a Catholic Bible, or even read and online version.

 

[sandusky]

E.E.N.S.:

There is a difference between mortal and venial sins…

Venial and mortal sin are peculiar to the RCC.

God says that all sin is mortal sin (Rom 6:23).

 

[Vincent1560]

sandusky:

Venial and mortal sin are peculiar to the RCC.

God says that all sin is mortal sin (Rom 6:23).

What is your interpretation of John 5: 16-17 Sandusky? The only scriptural distinction between sins relevant to this verse that I can think of is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I think the notion of grave vs. not grave sin is very arbitrary and that only God is qualified to judge which is why I disagree with the Catholic conception. What is your interpretation of the aforementioned verse and why shouldn’t we pray for it?

 

[E.E.N.S]

sandusky:

God says that all sin is mortal sin (Rom 6:23).

Not exactly, it says,

6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

And how do you reconcile your stance of “all sin is mortal” with 1 John 5:16-17?

5:16 *If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. *5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

The only scriptural distinction between sins relevant to this verse that I can think of is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

You are confusing mortal sin with unforgivable sin.

 

[Vincent1560]

E.E.N.S.:

You are confusing mortal sin with unforgivable sin.

I understand that this is the Catholic description, but can you demonstrate this Scripturally? You may be right, but in my studies I have not found these to to be necessarily distinct, and it seems to me as the most logical recconciliation of the aforementioned passage.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I understand that this is the Catholic description, but can you demonstrate this Scripturally? You may be right, but in my studies I have not found these to to be necessarily distinct, and it seems to me as the most logical recconciliation of the aforementioned passage.

There is plenty of evidence in Scripture (without even referencing 2 Maccabees, of which I know you are not familiar with), let’s start with the verse you are referencing;

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

or consider;

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

 

[sandusky]

Not exactly, it says,

6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

And how do you reconcile your stance of "all sin is mortal" with 1 John 5:16-17?

5:16 *If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. *5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Rom 6:23 is clear, and makes two inexorable absolutes:

1. Spiritual death is every man’s paycheck for slavery to sin.
2. eternal life is a free gift of God, which cannot be earned in any way.

What is the sin that John is talking about? What kind of death is John talking about? Is it physical death? Is it spiritual death.? And what is the sin not leading to death? Is John saying that it is possible to sin unto eternal life?

Where are we told what that is?

You cannot answer that with any certainty whatsoever. All you can do is speculate.

Rom 6:23 leaves no room for speculation. All sin is mortal sin.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Also - 1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I would say that the best argument that I have heard AGAINST purgatory would be the “Good Thief” position. (cf. Luke 23:43)

Many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

 

[E.E.N.S]

sandusky:

Rom 6:23 is clear, and makes two inexorable absolutes:

1. Spiritual death is every man’s paycheck for slavery to sin.
2. eternal life is a free gift of God, which cannot be earned in any way.

What is the sin that John is talking about? What kind of death is John talking about? Is it physical death? Is it spiritual death.? And what is the sin not leading to death? Is John saying that it is possible to sin unto eternal life?

Where are we told what that is?

You cannot answer that with any certainty whatsoever. All you can do is speculate.

Rom 6:23 leaves no room for speculation. All sin is mortal sin.

I am sorry you hold that position Sandusky…truly I am.
I don’t know how you can say “all sin is mortal sin” when the Bible says “not all sin is mortal.” Why do you continue to twist Sacred Scripture?

 

[bones_IV]

jhardee:

You forgot about Hebrews 9:22 the blood (Christ’s Blood) remission of sins…

Hebrews 9:22
22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Here in verse 22 we find the reason why Moses had to sprinkle the book of the law, the people, the tabernacle and the ritual vessels: he had to do it in order to purify them-hence the point Paul was making in this chapter is that the shedding of the blood was needed for purification!
As for the Old testement sacrifices which involved cereal offerings, water or fire purifications they were used to clense leprosy and legal cleanness (cf. Lev 22:6; 14:1 ff). As for the booty captured from idolators- in order to keep with the law- everything was purified with blood in the sense that the sprinkling or anointing whicht the high priest carried out implied involvment in the essential act of sacrifice-- the shedding of blood.
Oh, and the reason why the law of Moses prohibited the eating of food with blood in it, the ancient Jews believed that life and blood were inseparable and therefore God was the sole owner of the blood. Hence, when a sacrifice is offered, the blood of the victim was reserved to God. The reason why the Rabbis said “There is no atonement without blood” had to do with the fact that the sprinkling of blood was the most perfect form of Purification but there were alternatives. When it came down to obtaining forgiveness of sins and not just legal purification the only recourse was a blood offering. All the interior and blood sacrifices all point to one thing Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and the shedding of his blood.